The world of Harry Turtledove's Atlantis.
- Thread starter MaxGerke01
- Start date
Ok this thread is cool. It's been a decade and some since I read these books. But if I remember correctly Atlantis was united by the end of the second book and the third was an ACW analogy with the cousins of the main POV family fighting over slavery.
From what I remember they were vague over what happened on Terra Nova. Also with just what amounts to the geologic east coast the United states of Atlantis will not be and parallel to our USA resource wise.
From what I remember they were vague over what happened on Terra Nova. Also with just what amounts to the geologic east coast the United states of Atlantis will not be and parallel to our USA resource wise.
Having at last completed my first read-through of the series (one prompted by this very thread), it seems only fair to lay out my key thoughts on the ATLANTIS novels:-
- Starting from the top, it is fair to say that this is one of Professor Turtledove's better contributions to the genre; it suggests Big Ideas (What if the USA was also an Island Continent? What if Europe discovered the New World early? What if the Slaves freed themselves? and so forth), it offers a broad and often colourful picture of a readily-comprehensible yet not wholly familiar world (rebel archers, man-eating eagles, PIRATE KINGS, George Washington with Thomas Jefferson problems, Frederick Douglass as George Washington of the 19th Century, honkers!) without allowing the narration to become so hydra-headed the series can only be told at tedious length & outstay its welcome.
If it sometimes gives the impression that Professor Turtledove writes with more industry than enthusiasm, it's only fair to remind those who would have enjoyed a deeper dive into local details or a slightly less archetypical plot & characters that the Dean of Alternate History is writing to make a living & support a family rather than make a point; while his work may lack a certain passion, I find it to be consistently inoffensive & competently-drafted (with a happy tendency to leave quite enough room for fans to come up with their own answers to the questions that suggest themselves throughout this trilogy).
- Concerning the books themselves, LIBERATING ATLANTIS is my favourite but OPENING ATLANTIS is probably the best of them; THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS is most definitely the weakest of this trilogy, having shackled itself to Victor Radcliff's single point of view (a decision which seems all the more peculiar given the character himself was introduced in a chapter of OPENING ATLANTIS that works very effectively as a two-sided exploration of the local Seven Years War, told from the duelling perspectives of Mr Radcliff and the late Siegneur de Kersauzon and is downright bizarre given the novel's sequel offers an equally multi-sided view of the Great Insurrection), which leaves his opponents looking downright lazy, crazy and (worst of all) boring - given we never get a chance to get inside their heads & find out how much Mr Radcliff doesn't know (a few more insights would have allowed us a much stronger sense of a duel between equals, which would have lent an extra sense of drama), it's difficult to take much of an interest in his operations against the Loyalist Forces.
While the fidelity with which Professor Turtledove follows the course of the American Revolution (a little simplified & sped-up) makes it transparently clear that the King's Men won't be winning this one, he could at least have made the journey towards that inevitable conclusion a more interesting one; in all honesty, were Professor Turtledove to insist on maintaining only a since perspective throughout he might have done better to focus on a Loyalist, rather than on the lead Patriot (building this novel as the tragedy of a good man reduced to villainy inch by inch as victory slips out of his grasp and defeat looms closer & larger all the while - rather than the steady process towards Victory of a competent professional, whose very professionalism renders his fears for the cause less genuine doubt and more nagging concern, leaving his adventures against a fairly flat opposition even less thrilling by comparison).
Either that or have the nerve to kill off Radcliff in the very hour of his triumph and use that twist to show how important George Washington was to the American Revolution not only in war but in peace.
OPENING ATLANTIS, by contrast, is a nice little dance across the centuries - a variety of perspectives allowing us a wider and more interesting picture of the unknown continent and its history opening up before us; my only quibble is that Professor Turtledove could (and perhaps should) have gone further with his 'early' settlement of Atlantis, showing the local United States gets its start through the tectonic convulsions unleashed across the Realms of Charles the First by the War between King & Parliament (a logical extension of the Cromwellian Commonwealth's creation and quite possibly a budding democratic opposition to the Lord Protector).
LIBERATING ATLANTIS, as mentioned above, is my personal favourite: seeing the Atlantean slave population seize freedom with their own two hands and a certain amount of luck offers a lovely twist on the American Civil War of our own timeline, while leaving the Island USA with an ending that serves as an excellent hook for further storytelling - and what more can one ask from an Alternate History than that?
(BY THE WAY) Of the unstated questions posed by the books, the ones that interest me most are:
(1) How did the abrupt & distant demise of Richard, Earl of Warwick affect the Wars of the Roses, at a point when the heir of Henry VI was still alive, well and safely beyond the reach of Edward IV?
(2) Just how did the English colonies in Atlantis hold off the Spanish, as they rampaged across the New World and turned hostile eyes on Old England?
(3) Were the Atlanteans for Crown or Parliament during the Civil Wars of Charles the First?
(4) How does the government in the Atlantean US actually work? (My guess is that it's a very, very Parliamentary system where the legislative has a clear ascendancy over the executive; hence the protracted absence of Consul Stafford & Consul Newton having so little impact on day-to-day governance, a vacuum difficult to imagine the United States of America taking so casually).
(5) Does the United States of Atlantis attempt to rival the Royal Navy of that other great Island Nation throughout the nineteenth century or does it content itself with watching the Atlantean coast and not much more? (How does the United States of Atlantis suffer from the lack of legroom & extra resources it would have enjoyed as a part of the 'Terranovan' mainland?).
(6) Just how rough is the post-Insurrection reconstruction going to be? (Is there room for a National Park that will do its best to protect, preserve and defend the steadily-vanishing Atlantean ecology?).
(7) Just what does Terranova North look like and what's been going on there while Atlantis stumbled along half slave & half free?
- Starting from the top, it is fair to say that this is one of Professor Turtledove's better contributions to the genre; it suggests Big Ideas (What if the USA was also an Island Continent? What if Europe discovered the New World early? What if the Slaves freed themselves? and so forth), it offers a broad and often colourful picture of a readily-comprehensible yet not wholly familiar world (rebel archers, man-eating eagles, PIRATE KINGS, George Washington with Thomas Jefferson problems, Frederick Douglass as George Washington of the 19th Century, honkers!) without allowing the narration to become so hydra-headed the series can only be told at tedious length & outstay its welcome.
If it sometimes gives the impression that Professor Turtledove writes with more industry than enthusiasm, it's only fair to remind those who would have enjoyed a deeper dive into local details or a slightly less archetypical plot & characters that the Dean of Alternate History is writing to make a living & support a family rather than make a point; while his work may lack a certain passion, I find it to be consistently inoffensive & competently-drafted (with a happy tendency to leave quite enough room for fans to come up with their own answers to the questions that suggest themselves throughout this trilogy).
- Concerning the books themselves, LIBERATING ATLANTIS is my favourite but OPENING ATLANTIS is probably the best of them; THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS is most definitely the weakest of this trilogy, having shackled itself to Victor Radcliff's single point of view (a decision which seems all the more peculiar given the character himself was introduced in a chapter of OPENING ATLANTIS that works very effectively as a two-sided exploration of the local Seven Years War, told from the duelling perspectives of Mr Radcliff and the late Siegneur de Kersauzon and is downright bizarre given the novel's sequel offers an equally multi-sided view of the Great Insurrection), which leaves his opponents looking downright lazy, crazy and (worst of all) boring - given we never get a chance to get inside their heads & find out how much Mr Radcliff doesn't know (a few more insights would have allowed us a much stronger sense of a duel between equals, which would have lent an extra sense of drama), it's difficult to take much of an interest in his operations against the Loyalist Forces.
While the fidelity with which Professor Turtledove follows the course of the American Revolution (a little simplified & sped-up) makes it transparently clear that the King's Men won't be winning this one, he could at least have made the journey towards that inevitable conclusion a more interesting one; in all honesty, were Professor Turtledove to insist on maintaining only a since perspective throughout he might have done better to focus on a Loyalist, rather than on the lead Patriot (building this novel as the tragedy of a good man reduced to villainy inch by inch as victory slips out of his grasp and defeat looms closer & larger all the while - rather than the steady process towards Victory of a competent professional, whose very professionalism renders his fears for the cause less genuine doubt and more nagging concern, leaving his adventures against a fairly flat opposition even less thrilling by comparison).
Either that or have the nerve to kill off Radcliff in the very hour of his triumph and use that twist to show how important George Washington was to the American Revolution not only in war but in peace.
OPENING ATLANTIS, by contrast, is a nice little dance across the centuries - a variety of perspectives allowing us a wider and more interesting picture of the unknown continent and its history opening up before us; my only quibble is that Professor Turtledove could (and perhaps should) have gone further with his 'early' settlement of Atlantis, showing the local United States gets its start through the tectonic convulsions unleashed across the Realms of Charles the First by the War between King & Parliament (a logical extension of the Cromwellian Commonwealth's creation and quite possibly a budding democratic opposition to the Lord Protector).
LIBERATING ATLANTIS, as mentioned above, is my personal favourite: seeing the Atlantean slave population seize freedom with their own two hands and a certain amount of luck offers a lovely twist on the American Civil War of our own timeline, while leaving the Island USA with an ending that serves as an excellent hook for further storytelling - and what more can one ask from an Alternate History than that?
(BY THE WAY) Of the unstated questions posed by the books, the ones that interest me most are:
(1) How did the abrupt & distant demise of Richard, Earl of Warwick affect the Wars of the Roses, at a point when the heir of Henry VI was still alive, well and safely beyond the reach of Edward IV?
(2) Just how did the English colonies in Atlantis hold off the Spanish, as they rampaged across the New World and turned hostile eyes on Old England?
(3) Were the Atlanteans for Crown or Parliament during the Civil Wars of Charles the First?
(4) How does the government in the Atlantean US actually work? (My guess is that it's a very, very Parliamentary system where the legislative has a clear ascendancy over the executive; hence the protracted absence of Consul Stafford & Consul Newton having so little impact on day-to-day governance, a vacuum difficult to imagine the United States of America taking so casually).
(5) Does the United States of Atlantis attempt to rival the Royal Navy of that other great Island Nation throughout the nineteenth century or does it content itself with watching the Atlantean coast and not much more? (How does the United States of Atlantis suffer from the lack of legroom & extra resources it would have enjoyed as a part of the 'Terranovan' mainland?).
(6) Just how rough is the post-Insurrection reconstruction going to be? (Is there room for a National Park that will do its best to protect, preserve and defend the steadily-vanishing Atlantean ecology?).
(7) Just what does Terranova North look like and what's been going on there while Atlantis stumbled along half slave & half free?
Having completed the series through the acquisition of ATLANTIS & OTHER PLACES, one can safely say that while I'm not very keen on Professor Turtledove's idea of Doctor Watson (ahem, Doctor Walton) his attempt at a Holmesian adventure is quite an enjoyable way to take a last look at the United States of Atlantis, with an absolutely HILARIOUS final scene (not least because it comes as a total surprise, Mr Helms having been archetypically Holmesian right up until he takes turn for the Roger Moore).
One did think it a trifle odd that Atlanteans are so gun-happy, given the lack of really dangerous predators or local rivals on the Island Continent, but given THE SCARLET BAND takes place only a decade or two after the Great Insurrection there's an easy explanation for the United States' alarming fondness for heavy firepower.
AUDOBON IN ATLANTIS, on the other hand, was less a romp and more a melancholy evocation of the ancient island slowly receding into legend as the modern world gnaws away at it; it's also interesting as our only real glimpse of the Terranovan mainland, especially since there's the suggestion that New Orleans has been acquired by an English-speaking power which cannot be the United States of Atlantis - one can only wonder if Great Britain has acquired the local equivalent to Louisiana or if some English-speaking state was erected as a buffer between British Terranova & Mexico (doubtless with the additional purpose of acting as a safety valve for the sort of settlers who rather loathed the Abolition of the Slave Trade, compensation or no compensation).
One did think it a trifle odd that Atlanteans are so gun-happy, given the lack of really dangerous predators or local rivals on the Island Continent, but given THE SCARLET BAND takes place only a decade or two after the Great Insurrection there's an easy explanation for the United States' alarming fondness for heavy firepower.
AUDOBON IN ATLANTIS, on the other hand, was less a romp and more a melancholy evocation of the ancient island slowly receding into legend as the modern world gnaws away at it; it's also interesting as our only real glimpse of the Terranovan mainland, especially since there's the suggestion that New Orleans has been acquired by an English-speaking power which cannot be the United States of Atlantis - one can only wonder if Great Britain has acquired the local equivalent to Louisiana or if some English-speaking state was erected as a buffer between British Terranova & Mexico (doubtless with the additional purpose of acting as a safety valve for the sort of settlers who rather loathed the Abolition of the Slave Trade, compensation or no compensation).
For some reason the UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS setting - I use the name to help distinguish Professor Turtledove's Atlantis from all those other ones - has really caught my imagination, so I'm giving the world of this island continent more thought than I have any of The Dean's settings, with the possible exception of Timeline-161; hopefully I'll have something more interesting than this to post at some point in the future, but until then this seems as good a place as any to post one of my nagging issues with the timeline.
Quite frankly I'm a little sad that Professor Turtledove used Charles Cornwallis as Victor Radcliffe's friend-turned-foe during the French & Atlantean War* and the War of Independence** based on what appears to be little more than 'brand name' recognition: as a British officer who showed promise in the local Seven Years War (13 Colonies edition), made many a friend amongst the local colonists and was nonetheless obliged to make war on them a frighteningly short length of time later Turtledove's character resembles William Howe far more than his namesake - this being an Alternate History, such permutations are of course perfectly possible and acceptable, yet the fact that Professor Turtledove does all this, then introduces a local version (one is tempted to call it a local parody) of Lord Howe in the next novel in this series, only to reduce him to a bluntly conventional commander who barely causes the local George Washington to break a sweat before precipitating a disaster in the field on a scale that would make 'Gentleman Johnny' Burgoyne laugh his britches off makes this dual (mis)characterisation rather stick in my craw.
If you're going to introduce a Charles Cornwallis as final boss for your 'George Washington' and don't even have him replay his passive-aggressive bit of business at Yorktown in this other time and place what even is the point?
Quite frankly I'd happily replace all mention of 'Charles Cornwallis' with 'William Howe' in any adaptation of the Atlantis trilogy that I had a hand in, simply because the character arc makes so much more sense with Lord Howe in the role (Also, I have a notion to replace mentions of General Howe in the original text with 'General Harcourt' since that allows one to produce a suitably bull-headed blunderer without traducing the memory of His Majesty's most successful general in the American War of Independence - also, it seems wasteful to mention an officer as Colonel Cornwallis' immediate superior in Kersauzon's War, then fail to show that officer recovering from his injuries to serve as the first British field commander in the Freedom War of Atlantis).
Anyway, ranting done for now - I hope you'll forgive me for letting my inner nag out to rehearse it's grievances.
*Hereinafter referred to as 'Kersauzon's War' in honour of its most distinguished commander (and because 'The French and Spanish War' doesn't quite have the same ring as 'The French & Indian War'); it seems only appropriate that the Last Stand of French Atlantis be named for the man who came so close to defying the long odds against him (not to mention the distinguished family who made Atlantis as we know it possible in the first place).
This would, admittedly, be its Atlantean name; Europeans may speak of the Atlantic War or the Seven Years War.
**I've seen this referred to as 'The War for Freedom' but one prefers 'The Freedom War' as an alternate form; it strikes me as having more of a chest-thumping "We beat the Evil Empire!" ring to it.
Quite frankly I'm a little sad that Professor Turtledove used Charles Cornwallis as Victor Radcliffe's friend-turned-foe during the French & Atlantean War* and the War of Independence** based on what appears to be little more than 'brand name' recognition: as a British officer who showed promise in the local Seven Years War (13 Colonies edition), made many a friend amongst the local colonists and was nonetheless obliged to make war on them a frighteningly short length of time later Turtledove's character resembles William Howe far more than his namesake - this being an Alternate History, such permutations are of course perfectly possible and acceptable, yet the fact that Professor Turtledove does all this, then introduces a local version (one is tempted to call it a local parody) of Lord Howe in the next novel in this series, only to reduce him to a bluntly conventional commander who barely causes the local George Washington to break a sweat before precipitating a disaster in the field on a scale that would make 'Gentleman Johnny' Burgoyne laugh his britches off makes this dual (mis)characterisation rather stick in my craw.
If you're going to introduce a Charles Cornwallis as final boss for your 'George Washington' and don't even have him replay his passive-aggressive bit of business at Yorktown in this other time and place what even is the point?
Quite frankly I'd happily replace all mention of 'Charles Cornwallis' with 'William Howe' in any adaptation of the Atlantis trilogy that I had a hand in, simply because the character arc makes so much more sense with Lord Howe in the role (Also, I have a notion to replace mentions of General Howe in the original text with 'General Harcourt' since that allows one to produce a suitably bull-headed blunderer without traducing the memory of His Majesty's most successful general in the American War of Independence - also, it seems wasteful to mention an officer as Colonel Cornwallis' immediate superior in Kersauzon's War, then fail to show that officer recovering from his injuries to serve as the first British field commander in the Freedom War of Atlantis).
Anyway, ranting done for now - I hope you'll forgive me for letting my inner nag out to rehearse it's grievances.
*Hereinafter referred to as 'Kersauzon's War' in honour of its most distinguished commander (and because 'The French and Spanish War' doesn't quite have the same ring as 'The French & Indian War'); it seems only appropriate that the Last Stand of French Atlantis be named for the man who came so close to defying the long odds against him (not to mention the distinguished family who made Atlantis as we know it possible in the first place).
This would, admittedly, be its Atlantean name; Europeans may speak of the Atlantic War or the Seven Years War.
**I've seen this referred to as 'The War for Freedom' but one prefers 'The Freedom War' as an alternate form; it strikes me as having more of a chest-thumping "We beat the Evil Empire!" ring to it.
I keep coming back to those excellent maps at the start of this thread and thinking 'Wouldn't it be fun to borrow from THE TWO GEORGES map of North America while working out the provinces of Ontario?' (If nothing else, I really like the idea that - via the Dominion of Ontario - a writer putting together something for this setting can have their cake & eat it, in terms of being able to write crossovers between the local United States and a version of North America where the British beat the Revolution without being obliged to traffic in Science Fiction).
If nothing else we all know that what we call the Province of Ontario just has to be the 'Province of Canada' (after all, what's the point of Alternate History without at least one blatant allohistorical allusion?).
After a quick glance at the TWO GEORGES map page and The Atlantean Century: 1910, so far as I can tell the Dominion of Ontario controls the territory of:-
- Albertus (OTL Alberta & central-west Montana, more or less): In all honesty one would probably call this one 'Alberta' for the sake of having a less HARRY POTTER sort of name.
- Baffin (OTL Northwest Territories, less SE section but plus NW Nunavut; all Victoria & King William islands)
- Banksia (OTL Yukon)
- Canada (OTL Ontario): As noted above, how could we not use this one?
- Hudsonia (OTL Nunavut, less NW Section, and SE section of Northwest Territories)
- Illinois (As per out timeline): One can only wonder what the local version of Honest Abe is getting up to while Consuls Stafford & Newton fail to live up to his high standard ...
- Miami (OTL Ohio): Having done a little research, it's deeply amusing to realise there's a great deal more Miami to be found in the Great Lakes/Midwest region than there is in the immediate vicinity of the most famous city by that name.
- Newfoundland (As per our timeline, though rather farther from anywhere else)
- New Guernsey (OTL Wisconsin, Minnesota east of the Mississippi & the Upper Peninsula of Michigan)
- Ontario (OTL Manitoba, NE North Dakota & NW Minnesota): Doubtless not known by that name locally, so I'd like to suggest the name 'Buffalo' (since this is definitely Prairie Province territory ... well, probably; one would love to see some more expert opinion describe the likely impact of the complete absence of the Appalachians & East Coast on the local climate zones).
- Quebec (As per our timeline): I have the pet theory that Great Britain put so much into Atlantis either because they never held (or outright lost) provinces in North Terranova at some point prior to the French & Atlantean War.
- Tippecanoe (OTL Indiana): For some reason I really like this name 'The Province of Tippecanoe' (doubtless it has more positive associations locally than the triumph of the late President William Henry Harrison).
- Washington (OTL Saskatchewan, eastern Montana, western North Dakota & NW South Dakota): Not sure the name works locally, but if the local George Washington is prominent enough to get a whole Province named after him, one can only wonder what he made of Mr Victor Radcliff ...
- Wilberforce (OTL Michigan, absent the Upper Peninsula).
If I've made any mistakes, please do let me know; in all honesty one would probably lose a few of these in favour of other names, but the idea of borrowing from one Harry Turtledove alternate history to enrich another continues to appeal to me.
Perhaps I should think about commissioning a map of the local Ontario?
If nothing else we all know that what we call the Province of Ontario just has to be the 'Province of Canada' (after all, what's the point of Alternate History without at least one blatant allohistorical allusion?).
After a quick glance at the TWO GEORGES map page and The Atlantean Century: 1910, so far as I can tell the Dominion of Ontario controls the territory of:-
- Albertus (OTL Alberta & central-west Montana, more or less): In all honesty one would probably call this one 'Alberta' for the sake of having a less HARRY POTTER sort of name.
- Baffin (OTL Northwest Territories, less SE section but plus NW Nunavut; all Victoria & King William islands)
- Banksia (OTL Yukon)
- Canada (OTL Ontario): As noted above, how could we not use this one?
- Hudsonia (OTL Nunavut, less NW Section, and SE section of Northwest Territories)
- Illinois (As per out timeline): One can only wonder what the local version of Honest Abe is getting up to while Consuls Stafford & Newton fail to live up to his high standard ...
- Miami (OTL Ohio): Having done a little research, it's deeply amusing to realise there's a great deal more Miami to be found in the Great Lakes/Midwest region than there is in the immediate vicinity of the most famous city by that name.
- Newfoundland (As per our timeline, though rather farther from anywhere else)
- New Guernsey (OTL Wisconsin, Minnesota east of the Mississippi & the Upper Peninsula of Michigan)
- Ontario (OTL Manitoba, NE North Dakota & NW Minnesota): Doubtless not known by that name locally, so I'd like to suggest the name 'Buffalo' (since this is definitely Prairie Province territory ... well, probably; one would love to see some more expert opinion describe the likely impact of the complete absence of the Appalachians & East Coast on the local climate zones).
- Quebec (As per our timeline): I have the pet theory that Great Britain put so much into Atlantis either because they never held (or outright lost) provinces in North Terranova at some point prior to the French & Atlantean War.
- Tippecanoe (OTL Indiana): For some reason I really like this name 'The Province of Tippecanoe' (doubtless it has more positive associations locally than the triumph of the late President William Henry Harrison).
- Washington (OTL Saskatchewan, eastern Montana, western North Dakota & NW South Dakota): Not sure the name works locally, but if the local George Washington is prominent enough to get a whole Province named after him, one can only wonder what he made of Mr Victor Radcliff ...
- Wilberforce (OTL Michigan, absent the Upper Peninsula).
If I've made any mistakes, please do let me know; in all honesty one would probably lose a few of these in favour of other names, but the idea of borrowing from one Harry Turtledove alternate history to enrich another continues to appeal to me.
Perhaps I should think about commissioning a map of the local Ontario?
I only read the first book, but I was always curious as to the changes to the new world would be. It seems like North America missing the whole east coast of OTL's USA would have some huge ecological and climate affects...
MaxGerke01
Banned
If the climate in what was our Plains is more like the Eastern US as its closer to the Atlantic then the Plains Indians in Terranova might have cultures more similar to the Eastern indians ? Sioux and Arapahoe in longhouses instead of teepees ?
I think you forgot Cranmer,Phoenix,and Hanover,unless *Mexico owns one or more of themI keep coming back to those excellent maps at the start of this thread and thinking 'Wouldn't it be fun to borrow from THE TWO GEORGES map of North America while working out the provinces of Ontario?' (If nothing else, I really like the idea that - via the Dominion of Ontario - a writer putting together something for this setting can have their cake & eat it, in terms of being able to write crossovers between the local United States and a version of North America where the British beat the Revolution without being obliged to traffic in Science Fiction).
If nothing else we all know that what we call the Province of Ontario just has to be the 'Province of Canada' (after all, what's the point of Alternate History without at least one blatant allohistorical allusion?).
After a quick glance at the TWO GEORGES map page and The Atlantean Century: 1910, so far as I can tell the Dominion of Ontario controls the territory of:-
- Albertus (OTL Alberta & central-west Montana, more or less): In all honesty one would probably call this one 'Alberta' for the sake of having a less HARRY POTTER sort of name.
- Baffin (OTL Northwest Territories, less SE section but plus NW Nunavut; all Victoria & King William islands)
- Banksia (OTL Yukon)
- Canada (OTL Ontario): As noted above, how could we not use this one?
- Hudsonia (OTL Nunavut, less NW Section, and SE section of Northwest Territories)
- Illinois (As per out timeline): One can only wonder what the local version of Honest Abe is getting up to while Consuls Stafford & Newton fail to live up to his high standard ...
- Miami (OTL Ohio): Having done a little research, it's deeply amusing to realise there's a great deal more Miami to be found in the Great Lakes/Midwest region than there is in the immediate vicinity of the most famous city by that name.
- Newfoundland (As per our timeline, though rather farther from anywhere else)
- New Guernsey (OTL Wisconsin, Minnesota east of the Mississippi & the Upper Peninsula of Michigan)
- Ontario (OTL Manitoba, NE North Dakota & NW Minnesota): Doubtless not known by that name locally, so I'd like to suggest the name 'Buffalo' (since this is definitely Prairie Province territory ... well, probably; one would love to see some more expert opinion describe the likely impact of the complete absence of the Appalachians & East Coast on the local climate zones).
- Quebec (As per our timeline): I have the pet theory that Great Britain put so much into Atlantis either because they never held (or outright lost) provinces in North Terranova at some point prior to the French & Atlantean War.
- Tippecanoe (OTL Indiana): For some reason I really like this name 'The Province of Tippecanoe' (doubtless it has more positive associations locally than the triumph of the late President William Henry Harrison).
- Washington (OTL Saskatchewan, eastern Montana, western North Dakota & NW South Dakota): Not sure the name works locally, but if the local George Washington is prominent enough to get a whole Province named after him, one can only wonder what he made of Mr Victor Radcliff ...
- Wilberforce (OTL Michigan, absent the Upper Peninsula).
If I've made any mistakes, please do let me know; in all honesty one would probably lose a few of these in favour of other names, but the idea of borrowing from one Harry Turtledove alternate history to enrich another continues to appeal to me.
Perhaps I should think about commissioning a map of the local Ontario?
(And who were Cranmer,Wilberforce,and Banks and what did they do to be worthy of having provinces named for them? Also Tippecanoe should maybe be avoided as WHH was probably butterflied away? Just my $0.01)
(also this reminds me that we really need to get on a Two Georges worldbuilding thread at some point, lol)
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LordandsaviourKloka, going by the maps linked to at the start of this thread - specifically The Atlantean Century: 1910 - the local Mexico certainly appears to occupy the southwestern territories you mention, hence their absence from my shortlist of possible Provinces for the Dominion of Ontario (personally I feel the version of Mexico that appears on that particular map might occupy a bit too much space - I would have liked to see an independent California & Louisiana, if only to examine how they might have dealt with a British North America/Terranova*).
*It's also interesting to note that Audubon in Atlantis implies there to be a predominantly English-speaking power occupying what we'd call Louisiana and a fair bit of the continental interior (gradually assimilating the Creole culture of New Orleans & points North); I'd have to check ATLANTIS & OTHER PLACES, but this power does not seem to be British Terranova/Ontario.
I'm not sure about the name Banks, but 'Cranmer' appears to be an allusion to Thomas Cranmer - a former Archbishop of Canterbury who was a key figure in the Reformation and (as a prominent Protestant) persecuted under Mary I Tudor ('Bloody Mary'): my guess is that the name implies His Majesty's Province of Cranmer to be no more friendly to the Catholic Power south of the border than our State of Texas is (and possibly even less, since it's the frontier between rival superpowers of THE TWO GEORGES universe).
'Wilberforce' is almost certainly a nod to Mr William Wilberforce, the leading light of the anti-slavery crusade in Great Britain; given the name attaches to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, it may be that African-American Freedman made a great migration north rather earlier in THE TWO GEORGES timeline than in our own and settled the area (One gets the horrible image of Mr Wilberforce being assassinated by the anti-Abolition lobby and being immortalised as a secular saint & martyr).
As a note, it's somewhat unusual for provinces (as opposed to cities) in the British Empire to be named for non-Royal persons - the only obvious exceptions to this general rule that occur to me are Pennsylvania (named for William Penn) and Rhodesia (named for Cecil John Rhodes).
From what I've been able to learn following a little research, the name Tippecanoe was borrowed from a significant river in what we'd call Indiana and given to the late President Harrison (rather than vice versa) after he won a battle near the place that river joins another (the name itself apparently derives from a local tribe's word for the Buffalo fish); so in THE TWO GEORGES timeline, it's not impossible this province was named 'Tippecanoe' in the same way that 'Delaware' 'Ohio' 'Mississippi' and 'Missouri' were all named for their local Rivers of Note.
It's definitely a challenge worth pursuing, though for the moment I'm more interested in the ATLANTIS setting - partly because I read those books more recently, partly because 'There's a supergiant island in the mid-Atlantic and they call it the United States of Atlantis' has a wonderful high concept hook and because this setting also allows us to explore 'British Empire in North America' plots to nearly the same degree as THE TWO GEORGES (It's like having your cake and eating it, not just having a tasty helping of British North America!).
*It's also interesting to note that Audubon in Atlantis implies there to be a predominantly English-speaking power occupying what we'd call Louisiana and a fair bit of the continental interior (gradually assimilating the Creole culture of New Orleans & points North); I'd have to check ATLANTIS & OTHER PLACES, but this power does not seem to be British Terranova/Ontario.
I'm not sure about the name Banks, but 'Cranmer' appears to be an allusion to Thomas Cranmer - a former Archbishop of Canterbury who was a key figure in the Reformation and (as a prominent Protestant) persecuted under Mary I Tudor ('Bloody Mary'): my guess is that the name implies His Majesty's Province of Cranmer to be no more friendly to the Catholic Power south of the border than our State of Texas is (and possibly even less, since it's the frontier between rival superpowers of THE TWO GEORGES universe).
'Wilberforce' is almost certainly a nod to Mr William Wilberforce, the leading light of the anti-slavery crusade in Great Britain; given the name attaches to the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, it may be that African-American Freedman made a great migration north rather earlier in THE TWO GEORGES timeline than in our own and settled the area (One gets the horrible image of Mr Wilberforce being assassinated by the anti-Abolition lobby and being immortalised as a secular saint & martyr).
As a note, it's somewhat unusual for provinces (as opposed to cities) in the British Empire to be named for non-Royal persons - the only obvious exceptions to this general rule that occur to me are Pennsylvania (named for William Penn) and Rhodesia (named for Cecil John Rhodes).
From what I've been able to learn following a little research, the name Tippecanoe was borrowed from a significant river in what we'd call Indiana and given to the late President Harrison (rather than vice versa) after he won a battle near the place that river joins another (the name itself apparently derives from a local tribe's word for the Buffalo fish); so in THE TWO GEORGES timeline, it's not impossible this province was named 'Tippecanoe' in the same way that 'Delaware' 'Ohio' 'Mississippi' and 'Missouri' were all named for their local Rivers of Note.
It's definitely a challenge worth pursuing, though for the moment I'm more interested in the ATLANTIS setting - partly because I read those books more recently, partly because 'There's a supergiant island in the mid-Atlantic and they call it the United States of Atlantis' has a wonderful high concept hook and because this setting also allows us to explore 'British Empire in North America' plots to nearly the same degree as THE TWO GEORGES (It's like having your cake and eating it, not just having a tasty helping of British North America!).
No kidding! One would be interested in seeing what 'Geoff's Climate Cookbook' has to say about local climate zones, given the presence of Atlantis (though one lacks confidence in my command of the necessary procedures).
The really interesting question is whether the Great Plains would exist at all, in a world where the left bank of the Mississippi is beachfront property (there's going to be a LOT more moisture in the area, so there may well be forests in place of prairies) - although Professor Turtledove notes that there are thundering herds of buffalo on plains 'beyond the great river' in Terranova North, so he clearly imagined that there was at least some area of prairie in this timeline (presumably farther into the interior and possibly much farther north than in our own timeline).
So it's not impossible that the Lakota, not the Iroquois, are the Great Confederacy of the Eastern Forests in Terranova North!
For the record, while I absolutely love the maps by YNot1989 (they are a major reason I returned to the Atlantis series after having read the first novel, then never picked up the next some years ago), they're not quite 'personal canon' for my own mental image of the United States of Atlantis setting: I'm shamelessly willing to borrow inspiration, but have some notions of my own on names & political geography (especially when it comes to Terranova North).
MaxGerke01
Banned
This map made me realize that if and when Atlantis was completely politically united because of its position in the middle of the Atlantic unlike the way the US felt until after WW2 Atlantis would always feel especially vulnerable to potential attack from both Europe and Terranova. Makes one wonder if Atlantis had alliances or if it tried to be isolationist?
^^ A modern depiction of John Elphinstone Fleming (1751-1819), later a key figure in the History of British Terranova, during his service with the King's Atlantean Rangers in the War of Atlantean Independence - note the 'overhauls' increasingly ubiquitous to the British Army in the field at this time (sometimes known as Atlantean trousers or 'trowsers') and the use of a bayonet in preference to the more regulation officer's sword, both typical for light infantry units in rough country and not unknown elsewhere in units on Atlantean service, especially later in this conflict. ^^
Getting back to our own timeline, the moment I read the name 'John Fleming' in THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS (He's the British Army lieutenant who approaches Mr Radcliffe after the battle of Grigsby's Field, seeking to recover the bodies of His Majesty's dead in general and his late brother James in particular), it struck me that Professor Turtledove was having fun with names in the same way that he was when giving VICTOR Radcliff's late son the name 'Adam' as a slightly grim Frankenstein joke - it also struck me that this character really should have been noted to play some role in Habakuk Biddiscombe's defection to Royalist Forces and other ruthless, devious & highly charismatic counter-insurgency efforts (Dash it all Harry, what's the point in making a James Bond joke out of character's name if you're not going to make them this year's Jason Isaacs?).
With that in mind - and the mental image of the King's Atlantean Rangers using a trident head for a cap-badge in the same way the Queen's Rangers used a crescent moon - I went looking for a good artist and found one in the artist whose gallery is linked to below (check him out, he's Excellent!): basically, I sent him the suggestion that we use the Queen's Rangers as a rough guide to the cut of this uniform and that we base it's colouring on Gage's 80th Regiment (of Light Armed Foot) from the French & Indian War, which he picked up and ran with, resulting in the very fine illustration we see here (with a lot of inspiration from Mr Don Troiani's excellent Soldier Studies series and a little help from Mr Tim Reese's ART OF WARS guide to regiments of the French & Indian War).
All credit to the artist, all complaints should come to me! (p.s. I say again, this artist is more than just worth their hire - they are highly worthy of your time, attention & admiration).
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