The What-if China/Korea Bonanza Thread

[Grouchio]

Greetings fellow members! I am Grouchio and I would like to ask some what-ifs and make some challenges. You see, I have witnessed a severe lack of either interest, enthusiasm, and/or knowledge about this subject, and so there have been few ATLs about China or Korea that began from those said areas. I understand that this is mostly a western forum, but I'm sure that the history of the exotic east may catch your eye. Sooo....
1. What if the outcome of the warring states period was vastly different from that of OTL? What if Qi Shi Huang was assassinated by that Jing Ke guy and was thus unable to unify China under his iron fist?
2. What if Legalism did not have much of an effect on Chinese society and/or policy? If I remember correctly, Li Si that famous Legalist was Shi Huang's chancellor.
3. I challenge you to make the Qin Dynasty last longer than it did (i.e Shi Huang refuses to eat mercury balls that slowly killed him, or if Er Shi is as willy as his father, something like that)
4. What if the Chu-han Contention went differently and Xiang Yu managed to defeat Liu Bang and found the Chu Dynasty?
5. What if the Rebellion of the Seven States suceeded in decentralizing Han rule? What would China be like without the guided rule of Wu?
6. What if Modu Shanyu was killed by the Yuezhi in retaliation for an attack his father made, and was thus unable to drive out the Yuezhi and found the Hunnic Xiongnu Empire? What would a Tocharian-Wusun Mongolia look like and what would it do with China? Also since the Yuezhi aren't evicted, neither would the Sakae (Eastern Scythians) and they wouldn't invade Bactria! Would Greco-Bactria possibly be able to stay around longer and make it's inhabitants speak more Greek? And so on.
7. What if the Xiongnu were able to conquer most of China and consolidate their rule there for a century or so? How much would that influence Northern China?
8. I challenge you to make the Yue peoples of the Yangtze River, not the northern Huang He River peoples the dominant culture and power of China!

One last thing! Can any of these PoDs be converted into ATL stories? I will have more ideas as time goes by. So until then, Enjoy!

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Do any of these even touch upon Korea?

To answer a few of these:

1. What do you mean by "vastly" different? I mean, in one sense I think a possible difference would be unification of China by another one of the Warring States. Chu has been mentioned before, but I think Zhao and Qi are probably strong enough to pull this off with the right circumstances. However, I don't think that qualifies as "vastly" different. For me, that would be something like the Dongyi conquest of China.
4. In my opinion, Xiang Yu would probably have taken the title of Emperor himself. He seems like the type of person ambitious enough to do so. I'm not buying the argument (put forth under the Han), that he wanted to split China back into several states.
7. I think this is a bit too difficult, because the Xiongnu had essentially an equal in the Han Dynasty. I'm not sure if the Xiongnu ever wanted to conquer China.
8. If you're getting rid of the Yellow River peoples as the dominant culture of China, you're not talking about China any more. However, I guess something more interesting would be having the State of Yue, possibly one of the strongest during the early Warring States Period, unify China.

 

[willbell]

I think the Xiongnu ever conquering large areas of China is as unlikely as the Helveti conquering the Roman Republic and then founding a consolidated kingdom. Think of it like this, there is a reason good No-Rome timelines do not have space-filling or pan-celtic empires during ancient times, they are just not going to happen that quickly and are enormously implausible, the only reasons that gaul has even been united is under #1. Roman conquest, or #2. Frank conquest. And that is not changing, you need a foreign conqueror with real power to conquer the barbarians, not a spontaneous barbarian kingdom (and when one does exist, it is rarely going to last long).
It might be a good way to balkanize China if you can plausibly make them want to invade China, plausibly make China too weak to offer real defence, and plausibly make them take one China even in a weakened state.

 

[Grouchio]

1. I have not yet gotten into Korea, but I will soon.
2. By vastly different, I would say that as far as I know, none of the other Kings would be as cruel as Shi Huang. Pretty weak for the term 'vastly different', but whatever. Chu, Zhao and Qi all have great potential to unify china, what differs are the policies they make. Like what if a fervent Daoist Emperor raised the standards of living for the poor?
3. What I meant anyway is that Xiang Yu does become emperor of a Chu Dynasty, and what sort of policies his dynasty would make that would differ from the Han's.
4. I thought they did when I watched Mulan.
5. It would be referred to as Cantonia I guess. In that prospect, yes, I would mean that the Yue would unify China.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Some underutilized ideas myself, by date:

• Wang Mang's Xin Dynasty lasts longer; what if the Eastern Han Dynasty never comes into power?
• What if the Jin Dynasty (the Sima one) lasts longer? No Northern and Southern Dynasties period, and less barbarian invasions.
• Which of the nomadic Northern Dynasties could have conquered China? I'm thinking Northern Wei, but maybe Northern Qi or Northern Zhou could have gotten it done.
• What if An Lushan conquered China? What about Huang Chao? How would such an end to the Tang Dynasty look like, and what would be the effects?
• What if Gaozong of Song is captured by the Jurchens? No Southern Song, I assume. Instead, China gets ruled by the Jin Dynasty.
• What if the Yuan Dynasty had become more sinicized? I'm thinking it would help them last longer.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I'm not sure Daoism wasn't a sufficiently coherent and developed ideology and religion by the Warring States Period, though it might be. I'm pretty sure this might require a conquest of China by Chu, since Qi and Zhao belong to the more Confucian or Legalist mindset in China.

Also, that idea would probably involve Yue conquering Wu and then Chu, which is really a nice idea, because if the Yellow River elites are worried about the semi-barbaric people of Chu, they'll be terrified about the Yue peoples, who are positively non-Sinitic. However, I'm pretty sure the Yue of Jiangsu and Zhejiang are different from the Yue that are today's Cantonese speakers.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Number 3 is particularly hard to do in my mind. On the one hand, the sheer ruthlessness of Qin Shihuangdi gave him the edge in the diplomatic/military aspect of unifying the various states, but that same ruthlessness was his undoing when it came to unrest and civil strife among his conquered subjects. If he hadn't been such a cruel and ruthless guy, he wouldn't have been able to conquer the other states.

Maybe have him be less of a dick when it comes to demanding tribute and taxes to pay for overly grandiose funereal tombs and other useless projects of a monumental scale. The huge amount of discontent stirred up by the end of the reign couldn't have been deflected by his son, so you'd have a very limited window of opportunity between the ascension of the Qin state and Shihuangdi's death within which to get him to change his method of ruling.

Also, regarding the mercury-immortality-elixir, I like to think of it as a negative feedback loop. The mercury poisoning made him ever more paranoid about imagined assassination attempts and threats to his power, which drove him to purge more and more of his inner circle and other advisors. Then the thought of his very own mortality by way of increasingly legitimate conspiracies against him would drive him back to the mercury, and there you have it. Negative feedback loop.

 

[CobaltKnight]

I hope no one considers it rude of me to ask my own question in here; admitantly I know very little of Chinese history, but what I do know fascinates me. Which leads me to both not knowing how to answer just about any of the OP questions (though being enraptured with everyone elses responses) and wanting to know about other divergences from the time periods I know.

Is there any way to get at least three independent "China's" in the area using the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period as a time period of divergence? As I understand it, the dynasty that eventually reunified China was very close to being snuffed out at the height of that period.

 

[Smaug]

Can't u pick 3 or 4...js

 

[Smaug]

Id love for korea to become a naval power....hammers n anvils though...jmo

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I hope no one considers it rude of me to ask my own question in here; admitantly I know very little of Chinese history, but what I do know fascinates me. Which leads me to both not knowing how to answer just about any of the OP questions (though being enraptured with everyone elses responses) and wanting to know about other divergences from the time periods I know.

Is there any way to get at least three independent "China's" in the area using the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period as a time period of divergence? As I understand it, the dynasty that eventually reunified China was very close to being snuffed out at the height of that period.

I'm not sure what you're asking. During the Three Kingdoms Period, there were essentially three China's, with three different dynasties claiming to be the rightful one.

If you're looking for a permanent division of China, this probably isn't the best time period either. Out of the three dynasties during this time, one of them had about 2/3 of China's population, which paves the way for eventual reunification.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Id love for korea to become a naval power....hammers n anvils though...jmo

Turtleships galore!

 

[FDW]

Some underutilized ideas myself, by date:
[*]Which of the nomadic Northern Dynasties could have conquered China? I'm thinking Northern Wei, but maybe Northern Qi or Northern Zhou could have gotten it done.

You forgot to Goguryeo, as they certainly could've brought a fair chunk of Northern China under control if they had a monarch that put themselves to it.

Id love for korea to become a naval power....hammers n anvils though...jmo

Korea, under unifed Silla (an oxymoron if there was one) was something of a naval power.

 

[Grouchio]

I shall have a few more up soon enough! Any more What-ifs in mind?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

You forgot to Goguryeo, as they certainly could've brought a fair chunk of Northern China under control if they had a monarch that put themselves to it.

That's possible, but it would require a very talented monarch, as well as North China being divided and weakened. There's a tiny window of opportunity during the 16 Kingdoms period, but once the Northern Wei start to form and consolidate power over North China, it's a little too late.

 

[democracy101]

That's possible, but it would require a very talented monarch, as well as North China being divided and weakened. There's a tiny window of opportunity during the 16 Kingdoms period, but once the Northern Wei start to form and consolidate power over North China, it's a little too late.

Well, it would have been possible for Goguryeo to conquer North China by 420-40 if Gwanggaeto had decided to directly conquer and control the Later Yan by 400-405, instead of installing a puppet ruler, then allowing a Goguryeo descendant to become ruler of Northern Yan in OTL. Considering that within 20 years, Gwanggaeto expanded the state in multiple directions by attacking Baekje, the Khitan, and Later Yan, along with aiding Silla against Japan, it's very plausible. As Northern Wei unified North China by 439, Goguryeo could have also done the same if it played the regional powers in the area accordingly. This scenario is basically a sketch of what I have in mind for my timeline so far, as I'm still working on the 4th century and have not worked out the specific details after the POD yet.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Well, it would have been possible for Goguryeo to conquer North China by 420-40 if Gwanggaeto had decided to directly conquer and control the Later Yan by 400-405, instead of installing a puppet ruler, then allowing a Goguryeo descendant to become ruler of Northern Yan in OTL. Considering that within 20 years, Gwanggaeto expanded the state in multiple directions by attacking Baekje, the Khitan, and Later Yan, along with aiding Silla against Japan, it's very plausible. As Northern Wei unified North China by 439, Goguryeo could have also done the same if it played the regional powers in the area accordingly. This scenario is basically a sketch of what I have in mind for my timeline so far, as I'm still working on the 4th century and have not worked out the specific details after the POD yet.

I remember you had this idea, but as I said to you before, I suggested a pre-400 point of divergence.

I mean, the idea isn't impossible post 400 CE, but as I said before, you would have to focus on a very narrow period of time. After the Battle of Fei River in 383 CE, there's a period where Northern China falls into disarray. However, by 396 CE, I'm pretty sure the Murong have been defeated by the Tuoba Wei, who would have taken the Northeast and presumably blocked or hindered Koguryo's expansion. Historically, Emperors Daowu, Mingyuan, and Taiwu of Northern Wei were fairly capable, though if you remove them, it might be easier.

 

[Grouchio]

Perhaps Gwanggaeto could send Korean assassins to assassinate Daowu and his family around 400 in a very well thought-out plan. This could be done by disguising a few dozen trained assassins as palace guard, bringing in an ambassador to Daowu's court with false documents, who promptly stabs Daowu to death before everyone's eyes. The other assassins then cause chaos and confusion in the palace, and manage to murder the rest of Daowu's family in Pingcheng. Mass disorder then erupts throughout the empire while Gwanggaeto swiftly moves his army to conquer most of Wei and Yan. Butterflies and shenanigans ensue, and I love writing about this.

 

[democracy101]

I remember you had this idea, but as I said to you before, I suggested a pre-400 point of divergence.

I mean, the idea isn't impossible post 400 CE, but as I said before, you would have to focus on a very narrow period of time. After the Battle of Fei River in 383 CE, there's a period where Northern China falls into disarray. However, by 396 CE, I'm pretty sure the Murong have been defeated by the Tuoba Wei, who would have taken the Northeast and presumably blocked or hindered Koguryo's expansion. Historically, Emperors Daowu, Mingyuan, and Taiwu of Northern Wei were fairly capable, though if you remove them, it might be easier.

Well, I was thinking along the lines of Goguryeo dealing a more devastating blow to Baekje before 395, along with other events in Silla and Japan, which would potentially create more butterflies in North China, as Goguryeo would effectively unify the region east of the Liao River. The problem is that in OTL, the Later/Northern Yan lasted until 436, and although it was probably nothing more than a buffer state between Goguryeo and the Wei after 405, neither thought of taking it over for several decades. As other states remained in North China, with a POD around 392-4, Goguryeo could possibly manage to maneuver the other states though diplomatic means, because the Northern Wei would have a hard time unifying North China without confronting Goguryeo beforehand.

Perhaps Gwanggaeto could send Korean assassins to assassinate Daowu and his family around 400 in a very well thought-out plan. This could be done by disguising a few dozen trained assassins as palace guard, bringing in an ambassador to Daowu's court with false documents, who promptly stabs Daowu to death before everyone's eyes. The other assassins then cause chaos and confusion in the palace, and manage to murder the rest of Daowu's family in Pingcheng. Mass disorder then erupts throughout the empire while Gwanggaeto swiftly moves his army to conquer most of Wei and Yan. Butterflies and shenanigans ensue, and I love writing about this.

I honestly think it would be extremely difficult for Goguryeo to send assassins in this manner. However, Goguryeo could have tried to set the Wei and Yan against each other though diplomatic means after 400 or so, although this scenario would probably not be effective as the one above.

Korea, under unifed Silla (an oxymoron if there was one) was something of a naval power.

I forgot to reply to this earlier. Silla did control the waters south of the peninsula around 830-40 under Jang Bogo, although it was during its waning years, and the establishment came to an end due to political turmoil. There is a possibility that it could have set up something substantial a few decades earlier, but as it was under Tang influence and was pressured from the north by Balhae, it would be unlikely.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of Goguryeo dealing a more devastating blow to Baekje before 395, along with other events in Silla and Japan, which would potentially create more butterflies in North China, as Goguryeo would effectively unify the region east of the Liao River. The problem is that in OTL, the Later/Northern Yan lasted until 436, and although it was probably nothing more than a buffer state between Goguryeo and the Wei after 405, neither thought of taking it over for several decades. As other states remained in North China, with a POD around 392-4, Goguryeo could possibly manage to maneuver the other states though diplomatic means, because the Northern Wei would have a hard time unifying North China without confronting Goguryeo beforehand.

Hmm, a point of divergence that early could let the Later Yan win the Battle of Canhe Slope, and also leave Murong Chui alive. What about the idea of Later Yan being more of a threat to the Northern Wei? Instead of Tuoba Gui (Emperor Daowu) establishing the Northern Wei, there could be a few weak states in North China instead. Later Qin could exist in this scenario too.