The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's somewhat cynical, but if the RN knows that the IJN will be focusing their forces thousands of miles away, it may well seem more efficient to focus all of their strength on giving the Japanese positions in SE Asia a proper kicking. Given British carrier strength in the region, an attack on Indochina or in support of an operation to kick the Japanese out of Borneo could be decisive.
Monsoon's coming on though, so it'd probably be better to consolidate for the moment, then wait until it's dried up a bit and the IJN is shot before rolling forward.
 
So yet again the Japanese are underestimating their opponents. This will be what, four US fleet carriers plus whatever Somerville can spare versus 5 Japanese fleet carriers and a number of battleships, although the allies have no apprehensions that the Japanese are going to give them a rough time, while the Japanese are expecting a walkover. How are the Japanese for fuel, do they actually have enough to get everyone out and back, and enough ships to actually carry that quantity of fuel?

Actually their are being less complacent than OTL. They could have scraped up a fifth fleet carrier for OTL Midway but decided the four would be good enough since they were sure the US only had the two carriers. ITTL it looks like even if they aren't prepared to admit it out loud the IJN have been taken by surprise once too often and have decided to drop the hammer on the USN with everything they can muster. As to the RN I'm wondering if Audacious and some friends might not sneak up behind the Japanese force. Night attack on the Yamato perhaps?;)
 
A few commando raids near some of the feared landing grounds could really help keep the German forces off balance. However, part of me fears that this Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica plan owes a bit too much to General Hindsight, and thus would not see too much light against socking it to the enemy on the mainland as quick as possible...

Would you even need Commando raids...just a suggestion that someone had been surveying beaches etc may be sufficient.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Just a teaser.
Yamamoto is intending to use eight carriers....:D

That's pretty much everything left afloat.

Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Shoho, and another light carrier.

Even concentrating carriers, after recent battles, Yamamoto is going to be extremely weak on escorts, especially cruisers and destroyers. Loosing two battleships at South China Sea wasn't exactly a good thing either.
 

Hyperion

Banned
One advantage I can think of for the US in TTL Midway, shouldn't the Marine fighters on Midway be F4U Corsairs now, seeing as there have been several mentions of butterflies getting this aircraft into service sooner than OTL.

Beyond the OTL number of fighters, I could see some of the older dive bombers stationed on Midway possibly even being replaced if there are enough Corsairs, seeing as in addition to being a fighter aircraft, the Corsair can easily carry a pair of 500lb bombs. That and given the Corsair only has one pilot compared to two or three aircrew for some dive bombers or torpedo aircraft, having a few less pilots around can make more room for infantry or ammo on the atoll.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
A new update! :D :D

So Nimitz has asked Somerville for help... Will he stage a distraction or send a carrier (or two for a third taskforce) to help out? Tune in as soon as Astrodragon! writes the next section! And now, a word from our sponsor...
CalBear recommends Doug-be-gone cream for those really stubborn Buffalos!
;) :p
Is that a crack about Buffalo wings?

Norwich used to have a Boulton-Paul Aircraft Ltd factory back in the mid 1930s. Some skilled aircraft workers still in the area.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090625...folkancestors.org/business/boultonandpaul.htm
  • 1935 - Captain Paul leaves the business and J P Jewson becomes the Company Chairman and shortly thereafter C W Hayward was appointed as a director.
  • 1937 - Capacity of the steel-working department was doubled.
  • 1939 - The Company was very much involved in the war effort, building several large armament factories and huge military training camps all over the country. They also made the wooden fuselage of the Oxford trainer, also the nose section of the Horsa glider. Wire-netting was used for defensive purposes and laid on aircraft landing fields. As a result of all this activity, the Boulton and Paul Ltd factory was attacked by bombers many times - by day and by night.
  • 1940 - Ten workers were killed and 68 injured in an air-raid in July and in August 9 died and twenty were injured. The box-making shop, the sheet-metal sop, the printing department, the canteen, the offices and the Boardroom were all destroyed.
  • 1941 - Tank transporter frames were being manufactured.
http://yorkairraids.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/raid-8-29th-april-1942-baedeker-raid/

The Baedeker tourist guide was used to select targets.

Thank you AD. Very happy with the thread.
 
Last edited:
Guys

Well possibly Hitler wasn't the most totally insane leader during WWII. I'm also wondering about how the Japanese are going to fuel this force and get everything together. Presumably the capital ship force would be the surviving Kongo's and the Yamato as the other stuff would slow things down a fair bit, especially since they think the US has no capital ships available. [Given the situation in the Atlantic they should at least have considered that elements of the Atlantic fleet could be switched to the region.

However, from what I've read, while they might have won the OTL Midway naval battle [and possibly this one as well] they had next to nil chance of actually taking the island. The US force would have outnumbered the attackers at least 3-1 if I recall correctly as well as being dug in and ready. Doubt it will be much if any different TTL.

Then they think they can not only take Midway but hold it - which would be an almighty pig to supply:eek: and then use it as the base for a successful invasion of the Hawaiian islands!:eek::eek::eek: Sounds about as logical and practical as the suggestions of the British government the past couple of decades!

I can't see Somerville being able to send a task force all the way to Midway, especially since they would have to take a hell of a detour to get there without crossing Japanese dominated waters. Time, logistics and the fear of leaving Singapore and the south undefended, especially since while the US knows it has broken Japanese codes I don't think its passed the full details onto the UK so not sure Somerville or London can be confident of this.

However a major strike or two, using the bulk of the carrier force, including giving Audacious's aircrew some combat experience, could well occur. Hitting some of the Japanese air bases and ports and seeking to disrupt further their already suffering shipping would cause the enemy further problems. Possibly also cause them to detach at least something from the attack on Midway, or curtail it sooner.

Steve
 
Where is the Major Japanese Fleet base in this time? Was the majority of the fleet based in the Inland Sea or somewhere on the coast?

How distributed are Japanese Munitions and Vehicle production facilities (Tank, Truck, Aircraft)? Do they have multiple small/medium factories or do they rely on a small number of large factories?
 
One point. The ALLIES aren't talking to the Italians, the BRITISH are. Hopefully this means a rather more efficient diplomatic deal than the mess in OTL.

The problem isn't with the British, who can organize things from their end quite well. The problem is expecting decisive action from a pack of jellyfishes like the Fascist Grand Council, who were Benny the Moose's lickspittles for most of the Fascist Era. Then there is the classic BBC (Yes Minister) description of your average European Union Official:

He has the sense of humor of the Germans,
the generosity of the Dutch,
and the intelligence of the Irish!
To that, add the modesty of the French
and the organizing ability of the Italians! (1)

Sometimes, there is a small kernel of truth in stereotypes.:eek:

OTL, once the Italian people realized Mussolini was overthrown, all Hell closed down for payday. There was no way for anyone IN Italy to give orders that would be obeyed by anyone. For all intents and purposes, all power in Italy had evaporated. There's no reason for this to be any different ITTL.

The BRITISH are in a better position to take advantage, the Germans in a worse position. But the Italians? Forming up defensive positions in the Alps? Who's going to lead them when most of the senior officers are committed Fascists? And Alpine Italy was the most Fascist leaning in the country? The Italian foot soldiers will be throwing their rifles away and going home (or joining the partisans, where frankly its safer).

1) Apologies to all, but this was a British political satire, address all complaints to the BBC.
 
I can respect British diplomacy, though if they present Fascist Italy minus Mussolini as a friendly ally, the French and probably the Americans are going to at least scratch their heads a bit. That's a helluva backpedal for a whole country to take, and a lot of water for Mussolini alone to carry.

I guess you could say "enemy's enemy" and all that, but I would still predict problems. Notably from the Italian people if they're left with what is at heart the same regime.

Remember the Allied reaction to Darlan?

Maintaining the same gang of idiots? The French will be furious, the Americans doubly so, and the Italians will be out of their skins.
 
I don't want this TL to be accused of being a Britwank, so it's a pity that the Japanese had three options as to who to have a major battle with and decide to take on the US rather than the British. I assume this means if there is a costly battle for the Allies it'll be the US who takes the brunt of damage leaving the British able to keep up their very good run in the Pacific.

I understand the Japanese have honour over reason, but will the British at some point have a nasty surprise or setback in the Pacific? Otherwise on the surface they just seem to be doing too well and to be too lucky in this TL. Plus it'd make things more interesting if the protagonists don't have everything going their way!

Personally I love a good Britwank.:) The people being screwed over ARE the bad guys after all.:p And American defeat at Coral Sea and Midway is hardly Unspeakable Seamammal territory. Only seizing Midway Island itself, as the Japanese were in fact totally unprepared to actually take the heavily defended island using the minimal forces they had on hand (the level of gunfire support they had ready for softening up the beaches was a joke).

As long as a double whammy suffered by the Americans isn't followed up by a ludicrously contrived American offensive against hopeless odds, then no one can seriously claim that the Americans are being deliberately and maliciously screwed over royal by the OP. (1)

1) Astrodragon and more than a few others of you out there know just what I'm talking about.:mad:
 
Last edited:
If he RN can send some carriers this will be very useful, even those 2 Aussie CVLs for use after the main CV vs CV affair. 5 IJN CV vs 4 US CV, given the state of the Japanese air groups and the US advantages is already tilted somewhat in favor of the US - especially since they will have a pretty good idea of when the Japanese are coming & that there are the 2 groups - CV TFs & surface/invasion fleet TF.

Depending on time/distance issues Somerville could send a CV or two to help out and use the CVLs in SEA. Malaya is basically stabilized and land based air support will be adequate to clean up the Japanese remaining near Burma to allow that link-up. Since Somerville will know there is no IJN CV/CVL support in the area of the DEI CVL support for surface forces & assisting land ops not covered by land air in the DEI is a safe bet - obviously if there might be CVs lurking about sending CVLs in by themselves would be foolish, but Somerville knows where the IJN CVs are (and are not).

The reality is that the USN can trade the IJN 1 for 1 CVs and planes and call it a win, many more are on the way and for the IJN...not so. Also, given the way the USn operates at least some of the downed aircrew will be rescued to fight again, IJN...nope.

BTW I agree that Sicily/Sardinia/Corsica is the way to go in the Med, although grabbing at least some Greek Islands should be doable and mollify the Greeks somewhat. I never suggested that the Balkan briar patch/tar baby was a good idea, just that the Greeks will be pressuring the UK to do something to free Greek territory. Since Crete is still in Allied hands, could we see an earlier attack on Ploesti - using Cretan airfields for forward staging (bomb up & refuel there, fly back to regular bases in N. Africa/Egypt/Palestine). Lots of good reasons to try this if technically possible - any damage to oil structure is good, forces the Germans to divert resources to defend this, makes the Romanians nervous, is a sop to the USSR, and good for Allied morale if it works.
 
I know... He really does make uncommonly good military sense usually; I'm sure that Megat... I mean User=Tron2020 ;) is ex-military somewhere. Or just a good amateur military strategian :D

I know what you mean about the hindsight thing, the logic is in there when you look; taking Sicily, Sardinia & Corsica while having Crete (& some of the other Dodecanese islands) puts the entire Italian West Coast, Southern French coast & Greece in fighter range. I'm surprised that it didn't occur to the CCoS ITL... I always thought that Operation Bodyguard was a bit thin when it came to the South of France.
We shall see if the Bodyguard's underbelly is equally soft in TTL. Hopefully somebody will look at a map somewhere and see what we are seeing. Then again, I think the talk of springing the Adriatic open for simultaneous East Coast landings is a bit optimistic...

The captured island will then be used as a base to allow first air attacks then an invasion of Hawaii.
Wow. This would be the IJN's new "Things haven't quite worked as we planned, so this is a more realistic set of objectives" plan coming to the fore, then? :eek:

He is worried by the volume of traffic reported - it indicates a very heavy attack by the Japanese, and if they commit their carrier fleet his four carriers may be overwhelmed, especially if they also have to worry about a heavy Japanese surface force. He therefore passes the intelligence on to Admiral Somerville in the days despatches, asking him if it will be possible for the Royal Navy either to help by organising distracting operations in the SE Asia area, or sending direct help.
Do the RN know the USN have cracked the IJN codes? This could influence Somerville's response...

Would you even need Commando raids...just a suggestion that someone had been surveying beaches etc may be sufficient.
Possibly not, but if the guys are available, and there's a nice deserted beach, nothing wrong with topping up the Charlie Chaplin impersonator's paranoia levels. Especially in places you aren't going to invade in a million years (I'm looking at you Norway)...

Depending on time/distance issues Somerville could send a CV or two to help out and use the CVLs in SEA. Malaya is basically stabilized and land based air support will be adequate to clean up the Japanese remaining near Burma to allow that link-up. Since Somerville will know there is no IJN CV/CVL support in the area of the DEI CVL support for surface forces & assisting land ops not covered by land air in the DEI is a safe bet - obviously if there might be CVs lurking about sending CVLs in by themselves would be foolish, but Somerville knows where the IJN CVs are (and are not).
Bold added for emphasis. This is the big thing. Of course, If there's a nasty slog between the USN and IJN, then Somerville arrives as the Japanese are limping away, that would be rather good timing, but if they arrive a few hours later, there'll be nothing there to bomb but oil slicks and wreckage. There's also the problem of how to get there without the IJN realising you're on the move. Just sending Crace into the teeth of a fleet large enough to worry the US seems somewhat lacking in caution, even for the RN. Not that I'm suggesting you've recommended that, but if Somerville can't get the CVs there, all he's got to offer is Crace and diversions.
 
Last edited:
Wow. This would be the IJN's new "Things haven't quite worked as we planned, so this is a more realistic set of objectives" plan coming to the fore, then? :eek:

Do the RN know the USN have cracked the IJN codes? This could influence Somerville's response...

Bold added for emphasis. This is the big thing. Of course, If there's a nasty slog between the USN and IJN, then Somerville arrives as the Japanese are limping away, that would be rather good timing, but if they arrive a few hours later, there'll be nothing there to bomb but oil slicks and wreckage. There's also the problem of how to get there without the IJN realising you're on the move. Just sending Crace into the teeth of a fleet large enough to worry the US seems somewhat lacking in caution, even for the RN. Not that I'm suggesting you've recommended that, but if somerville can't get the CVs there, all he's got to offer is Crace and diversions.

Somerville knows, Nimitz and he have been exchanging daily intel updates (by courier, so a little delay, for security). Its vital, neither knows which was the IJN will go next, and both need to be ready to support the other or take advantage.

Carriers can move around pretty fast, as long as they can refuel. The British have thought about the scenario of having to reinforce the USN, and what to do if they need to. A long campaign would be an issue due to supplies, but for shorter commitment food and fuel can be supplied by the USN.

Singapore - Midway (going around Japanese areas) is around 10,000 miles. A carrier group can do 600m/day, so about 16 days. Plus time to refuel and so on, say 3 weeks. The Japanese have a fair way to go too, and they need to get a sub screen out in front, get the carriers operational again. Their 3 weeks is quite optimistic, it will probably take longer.
 


I think the Po Valley will be massively different than OTL ;)
I can’t answer for the Italians, but with some Allied troops amongst them I would hope they’ll give a better showing – especially if they’re fighting from defensive positions. I think you’re right about them opening up to ALLIED forces if we can stop the Germans spoiling things!
Right now the Germans have few troops in Italy, they’ll probably rush some reinforcements to the region – mostly in the south - when/if Sicily is invaded. But there’s no fortified defenses yet, & if the campaign is run correctly there won’t be time either.

It takes a long time to get troops from the sea, disembark them, organize them, rail them, get them to the front, de-rail them, load up on trucks, and drive to the battle zone before they can deploy and engage the enemy. All the while all the Germans have to do is use the rails and roads they already control. Northern Yugoslavia is relatively friendly, and the South Tyrol is inhabited by Italians given the land by Mussolini after Hitler ceded it to Italy, giving Mussolini a political victory and ending any chance of him ever standing with the Allies pre-war. These are NOT Italians ready to fight the Germans.

AndyF said:
It’s probably not feasible, but imagine the 10th Army getting to Italy to find that the Alpine Line is already in place... manned by the Allies :D

The Allies could never make it. The Germans are too close. They'll draw on their reserves, the Home Army, and the mobile forces in the West. Later on, even troops from Norway and Denmark. Hitler isn't so crazy at this point as to allow his most important political ally to be destroyed because he won't release forces from elsewhere, even on the Russian Front. After all, he did this during Citadel OTL.

AndyF said:
Right around now, the available US regular troops pre-war should be training the new volunteers recruited/drafted since 12/07/41; the first batch should be ready soon. Assuming that the US industrial might have tooled up enough to supply them properly, that’s a lot of trained soldiers that only need combat experience & this is the way to give it to them; a campaign where the number of enemy ground forces is limited. Secure the Western Med first by taking Sicily first, then... Yes, I would imagine that the Italian-Americans in the ranks could be immensely useful there :D They might stiffen Italian resistance to the Germans too...

I shudder to think what could happen to the US Army engaging the Germans in 1942. We all know what happened OTL.:( Against the Italians, along with collapsing Italian morale the Americans do have the cultural advantage stemming from 19th-20th century Italy's national policy of mass emigration to the New World (the USA and Argentina, mostly, IIRC). With so many Italians having relatives in the USA, OTL they were even less enthusiastic about fighting Americans than they were the British. One of the reasons resistance in Sicily against Patton's troops melted so quickly (of course, he wasn't given the hard jobs of securing Syracuse and Mt. Etna, as Monty was).

AndyF said:
I’d favour Northern Italy; with fast enough advance or a landing at Trieste, it also rules out the Germans setting up the Alpine Line or a variation thereof.(1) There’s the option of further landings in Western Yugoslavia IF the US will go for it (since it’s likely heading for Germany not deeper into the Balkans).(2)
NOOOO! :O Not Roundup... throwing green US/Allied troops into Bocage country? Sheesh! Also I don’t think we’ve got 48 Divisions yet... :p (3)

1) Trieste? The Allied sea lanes going up the Adriatic would be a shooting gallery. And IIRC, Trieste isn't any better a choice for an amphib strike than Venice! And it's in a natural bottleneck. No breakouts.

2) No rail lines, no major ports, lots of political troubles.

I honestly think the initiative falls back to the Germans with Sicily/Sardinia/Corsica/the Aegean Islands secured. Where do they bolster the defenses? Paging Major Martin...:cool:

3) The idea about Roundup (late in the year 1943) was only in terms of very limited objectives (securing the Normandy Peninsula), and then let the Heer bash away. Make the Luftwaffe come out too. This with the assumption that Hitler is still fully committed to Citadel and is as over-defended all along the Med as he was OTL in Norway.

AndyF said:
I don’t think they’ll do that somehow, do you? The Soviets are the German’s main enemy right now, they’re only looking for mischief from the Western Allies at the moment. Although that will change rather quickly...

I agree. But in terms of Hitler's attention, D-Day turned it West for good. He always got his "Western Briefing" first following the invasion.

AndyF said:
Not necessarily. Take Southern Italy first, then you have land-based air cover to help keep local air superiority. What have the German/Italian navies got to stop naval forces? Coastal craft only by now, maybe a few U-boats. So we’re worried about coastal guns? What else are the BB’s for now? :D An invasion force with a heavy escort & carrier backup could proceed at best speed up the Adriatic to perform the landings.

That's a LONG-long way up the narrow restricted waters of the Adriatic, especially through the straits between the heel of Italy and Albania.. Remember, it's not just big shiny battleships and aircraft carriers that have to get through. Its vulnerable troop transports, and slow combustible supply ships. All coming in a steady stream that must be heavily defended, with the Germans justing sitting there in Yugoslavia calling in the air strikes.

That depends on who gets there first – see above. If you land forces in the area around Trieste & take the port as a priority target, then establish a good defensive perimeter? That plan goes out the window. It’s 300 miles from Trieste to Vienna/Bratislava...

And as I have said, they have to get there. Brooke would have a coronary at the thought of this "Gallipoli Squared".:eek:

AndyF said:
Alright, so I might be deviating onto the slightly optimistic side, but there’s no great reason why Salerno has to be the limit of amphibious landings if the Allies have taken Sardinia & Corsica.(4) The extension of air cover means the assaults can extend all the way up the Western (maybe even the Eastern (5)) coastline.
Either way, we don’t want to still have forces sitting in Italy when the war ends if we can avoid it; those troops could be better somewhere else. And it’s less optimistic than Marshall going straight for Roundup in ‘42;(6) what if he’d got his way? :O

4) EXACTLY. That was my point all along. The Italians wanted the Allies to land in Rome, but with a starting base of Sicily that was impossible, Salerno was their absolute limit of effective fighter range. ITTL, they have longer range, so Rome might be doable. It might also be Anzio Redux. Even Mark Clark freely admitted that his forces from Anzio could have easily taken Rome. And he was also quite certain that the four divisions involved in the invasion would have been absolutely destroyed in the overwhelming counter-attack which did in fact come.

I worry that there is an awful lot of OTL thinking in terms of German capabilities. Who's to say Hitler doesn't say: "Screw the Leningrad operation! Take everything we have in that sector, withdraw whatever isn't needed to defend a shortened defense line well outside the city, and send the rest to Italy! ABSOLUTE HIGHEST PRIORITY!!:mad: I can afford to not take one destroyed city! I cannot afford to lose Il Duce! Not because of the cowardice of his worthless people!" That's Hitler. For once, thinking with his heart. Yes. He had one. At least when it came to the man he admired throughout the long years he toiled to rise to power himself.

5) You'll never get me to agree to that.

6) I miscommunicated that, sorry. When I say "Roundup" I MEAN 1943. I never use that word for 1942. Then I mean "Sledgehammer". Which is, I agree, suicide.
 
The thing about the OTL Italian surrender is they were both confused by their own command and being disarmed by German forces in short order.

For example they were told Italy had surrendered and ordered not to attack German or allied forces, not to cooperate with partisans and to act with Maximum Decision if attacked by anyone, then placed under German command outside Italy. Where the local commander chose - Sardinia, Apulia, Calabria, Greece, they immediately cooperated with the allies, others waited until the Germans made an overt act - Rome and Corfu and fought others allowed themselves to be disarmed. But the key that there German forces there to do it.

It does not take much - 48 hours or better organisation for clear orders to get delivered and with the bulk of the more competent commanders in Italy that’s more likely. The most obvious one to get things done is Messe who OTL commanded the Co Belligerent army and TTL is either a corps or army Commander of the OTL CSIR or AMIR units. That alone is a 14 division force.

TTL the Germans (in Italy proper) are a couple of liaison staffs and Luftwaffe base personnel. As said before the mobile forces the Germans have in the west are three Cadre strength Pz Diz, HG regiment and one battalion of a Pz Bde, 22 leg divisions and that’s the lot.

Just to Give a highlight timeline (dates are OTL) 28/6 Blue begins. 3/7 Sevastopol falls, 5/7 4th PzA reaches the Don, 7/7 4PzA at Voronezh, AGA begins offensive in the Donets. 10/7 4 PzA and 6th Army link near Kalach. At this time the advance is slowed due to lack of fuel and heavy rain , most of the Ju52 Force is doing reup for 4 PzA. AGA attacking towards Rostov.

OTL 9-10 July 43 HUSKY

At this point the Germans are apparently pursuing a retreating but unbeaten army. AGN and AGA are engaged, AGB is advancing but not in a good logistical situation they are abandoning heavy fuel consuming vehicles and scavenging the gas to keep the advance going and still in contact. AGC is quiet but facing the bulk of the Red Army. It might be possible to withdraw forces from AGC (~450 Tk) - the priority to Blue had meant that a lot of technical staff had gone south and they may not be as mobile as you may think. In any event see below for 30 July

There is a choice and the option to remove some forces from Russia but that almost certainly means the reserve for Blue 2 Pz Div OTL in NA goes that may be done quickly anything else will take a long while, but that means stopping or the potential for a major disaster. And why - Everyone knew the invasion was coming the plan is for the Italians to deal.

12/7 AGN reduces the Volkhov pocket.
13/7 the Bulk of AGB panzer forces switched to AGA for the Drive on the Caucusus
15/7 AGB at Millerovo

Between then and !8th AGB is designated as flank guard for AGA so could stop in place, but its armour is now driving south and south east under AGA. Around this time the Allies in Sicily are just advancing out of the bridgeheads. Its unlikely (IMHO) that much by way of reinforcements would have arrived in Sicily from the Italian mainland. There is also a limit as to how much the Italians can supply in Sicily - that’s from the Husky planning assumptions btw.

18/7 AGB resumes offensive to Stalingrad.
20/7 Russians recapture Voronezh bridgehead
24/7 Rostov Captured
25/7 AGA breaks out of the Rostov Bridgeheads
25/7 43 Mussolini Arrested
27/7 6th army Attacking Kalach Bridgehead
27/7 43 Axis realises Sicily will fall and order evacuation.

At that point 25 or 27 to taste the Germans could again reprioritise and move troops West.

July 30th Konev attacks AGC. Encircling 6 German Div.
!2 August Churchill Arrives in Moscow TTL with extra cigars and a dozen cases of Laphroig?
24 August Red army attacks in Leningrad sector.

The German problem is that they are not controlling the pace of events except in AGS (AGA and AGB ) sector where the choice is to continue with reduced forces or give up the only chance they have of knocking the USSR out of the war. If they have taken troops out of AGN and especially AGC sector to reinforce the west (and AGN only has 113 tanks mostly Pz38t)

As an added and self imposed complication a significant portion of the rail net is currently involved in transporting people to extermination camps (Aktion Reinhard)

Could the RN escorts keep up with the carriers?

And an afterthought. Where I know about it german armoured units transferred east to west left their vehicles in the East and were reconstituted in Germany. Given right now everything has been sent east for Blue not sure just what will be available for the reequip.
 
Union Trouble is right (I don’t know about the “to bust”), but sooner or later they’ll have to accept modernisation anyway so I agree – the Allies need a more efficient British supply chain. (sorry to my Grandad – he was a Liverpool Docker). This might be a good point to start studying At-Sea replenishment ships, the fleet train would come in handy for SEA. Is it a driver? Ask AD.

It's amazing how nationalistic people of different nations can be regarding something like longshoreman work practices. Even 70 years after the fact. A lot of US military personnel had to do all their own construction and stevedore work because of all the sudden "labor troubles" that seemed to pop up when ever there was any heavy lifting to be done. All to the detriment to their own training.

Frex, the US 32nd and 41st Infantry spent months in Australia doing grunt work rather than training, and then were thrown into battle with disastrous results. The Americal Division, OTOH, did not face this problem. So when they engaged the enemy for the very first time, they kicked ass.

And while the British certainly knew better than the Americans how to stow ships for a Channel crossing, the difference in how American cargo ships were combat stored compared to British vessels was almost embarrassing. But for once, the embarrassment was on the British.

In the USA, labor history was far worse than in Britain when considering worker's rights (collective bargaining was only completely legalized in 1937!). But at least with no working class radicalism (as in Europe) the unions were willing to bury the hatchet with management in wartime. Since the US government was mandating wages in wartime anyway, labor difficulties were somewhat uncommon.


AndyF said:
Ah. I hate to disagree with you Usertron, (1) but there are 3 fairly major ports in the eastern regions; Thessaloniki is the largest, then Alexandroupoli – both linked by rail - & Kavala between the two, although it has no direct rail connection & the nearest station is about 23 miles away. None of them are Southampton or New York, but then they don’t need to be; just Hull will do. There’s still a lot of islands to clear before you hit the beach though...(2)

1) Then don't.:)

2) Reason #4376 why the US and British Combined Chiefs, not to mention pretty much ALL the Dominions (except NZ) will never go for it.

AndyF said:
Still in agreement here, especially the integration between the 3 major forces & their commands. The Free French have a head start there because of the FF presence in NA with the CW troops. There’s still a decision to be made over who’s going to take overall command of any operations... And the Imperial War College did the same type of studies on the Balkans in that period.(3)

3) Never said they didn't.

AndyF said:
Again, no argument from me, but are you going to cut from Italy into Yugoslavia?(4) Hold Italy at the Alps to force Axis troops into the Balkans then invade Southern France?(5) Will you follow that with an invasion of Northern France (6) or invade the Balkans? (7) I know, it all depends on where the enemy troops are...(8)

4) No
5) Yes
6) Yes
7) No
8) Maybe
 
On the Italian question...

At the moment, the only German forces in Italy are Fliegercorps X and some liason and small units. Italy is being defended by Italians.

Now the issue is, how good do the Germans think the Italians are? Not as good as them, but they do have a lot of men, and there are obvious limits how many the ALlies can land. While theer have been questions raised as to the fighting ability of Italian units, they have had a year to work out some of the worst mistakes of NA, and they are defending their homeland.

Now the Germans will of course have made some contingency plans if the Italian defence shows signs of collapsing - they cant just abandon Mussolini. But the point is, how long will it take them to decide the Italians cant hold and need reinforcing? They arent going to start loading troops on trains as soon as the first Allied boot hits Italy (although they would certainly be planning for this). But even moving troops by train takes time - especially if someone has blown the rail line.

Unless there is ASB intervention, there is no way the Allies can get to the Alps/Northern Italy before the Germans react. The question is, if Italy surrenders or even goes over to the allies, how far north can O'Connor get before he runs into a defence line he has to stop at...? (Remember, no Mark Clark to screw things up TTL...:eek:)
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top