The Whale has Wings

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I don't want this TL to be accused of being a Britwank, so it's a pity that the Japanese had three options as to who to have a major battle with and decide to take on the US rather than the British. I assume this means if there is a costly battle for the Allies it'll be the US who takes the brunt of damage leaving the British able to keep up their very good run in the Pacific.

I understand the Japanese have honour over reason, but will the British at some point have a nasty surprise or setback in the Pacific? Otherwise on the surface they just seem to be doing too well and to be too lucky in this TL. Plus it'd make things more interesting if the protagonists don't have everything going their way!

Wait patiently (fat hope on this TL...:eek:) and all will be revealed unto you...:p

Heck, the British have been fighting in Europe, Norway, NA, the Med, SE Asia, DEI, South China Sea, and you object to the US having to face a few little Japanese ships...:D:p
 
I imagine you mean the Corinth region (almost an island). Quite a big chunk to hit all at once. This would be a proper front that Germany could pour divisions and munitions into. There might be some fingers of the coastline that could offer a narrow front line. Depends on how well the invasion beaches are covered really.
Massive understatement here, pg. Try the whole Peloponnese peninsula... Held properly it’s one huge bottleneck; worse than Italy!

If you are going to go beyond islands then the coast on the Turkish border offers the largest strategic reward. Taking Bulgaria and Romania out of the picture trumps negating Italy. Especially Romania. Mostly in terms of oil assets, but also numbers on the eastern front.
That bit about concentrating on what I assume is the coast in Western Thrace & Eastern Macedonia (ie Thessaloniki to Alexandroupoli – the Bulgarian occupied sectors) is the most sensible thing you’ve said so far about Balkan landings. :)
I don’t know about the largest strategic reward bit... And negating Italy can be a lot easier than taking Bulgaria & Romania out of the war. Since Romania & Hungary produce the fuel for the entire Axis force, don’t you think that they might strip everything available to stop you getting there? See next.

I think that Greece could be sold on a compromise. Take the south of Italy and hold. Use the bases there to help supply a full scale retake of Greece. Once at least some of mainland Greece is defensible, land in southern France, hold that and then land in Normandy and push for Berlin where opportunity arises. Too many fires to put out. Either the terrain is hard enough to hold a big beachhead or easy enough to push forward.
Erm, ever hear of the word “overstretched”? The Balkans could absorb every unit available in the British Army... I don’t think you’ll get the CW troops in. Besides, landing in Italy renders Greece irrelevant – with the land-based air cover to force the Adriatic open, that’s a lot of coastline available for landings... And the Greek government is at least still on it’s own territory; it’s a lot better than foreign exile.

I can't emphasise enough that logistic support is the key issue for Britain. They need to upgrade the ports and the transports. This will help with the Battle of the Atlantic too as ships are taking too long to load/unload and turn around. There may well be union trouble to bust over this, but the ports need reform and modernisation.
I'm not expecting ASB containerisation, but this is hardly state of the art for the time. If the Supply chain is entirely British, then there will be more pressure on it to succeed.
Union Trouble is right (I don’t know about the “to bust”), but sooner or later they’ll have to accept modernisation anyway so I agree – the Allies need a more efficient British supply chain. (sorry to my Grandad – he was a Liverpool Docker). This might be a good point to start studying At-Sea replenishment ships, the fleet train would come in handy for SEA. Is it a driver? Ask AD.

The ports in Greece are simply too small to support major operations. This is not counting Athens and Thessaloniki, of course. But they both connect with each other and the rest of Europe by rail. The other ports do not, not directly. Especially the ports in the Peloponnese region.
Ah. I hate to disagree with you Usertron, but there are 3 fairly major ports in the eastern regions; Thessaloniki is the largest, then Alexandroupoli – both linked by rail - & Kavala between the two, although it has no direct rail connection & the nearest station is about 23 miles away. None of them are Southampton or New York, but then they don’t need to be; just Hull will do. There’s still a lot of islands to clear before you hit the beach though...

What is it about the Balkans? I agree it's a great place for battle training purposes, but the biggest problem with that is that the troops who need the training and battle experience the most, the Free French and especially the Americans, won't have anything to do with the Balkans. I can't imagine how many US Army War College seminars were held between the wars over the unworkability of Gallipoli. And I can't see Marshall (or for that matter, Brooke, who I see as a much wiser general than Marshall in most things) going for it.
Still in agreement here, especially the integration between the 3 major forces & their commands. The Free French have a head start there because of the FF presence in NA with the CW troops. There’s still a decision to be made over who’s going to take overall command of any operations... And the Imperial War College did the same type of studies on the Balkans in that period.

The British simply CAN'T exploit the Balkans on their own. The US simply CAN'T do Overlord on their own. And between the two, with the Free French and probably every CW country except New Zealand backing Overlord over the Balkans, I just don't see Churchill getting his way. The key word being "Churchill". Not "the British". I'm seeing a lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda talk in this thread, but I believe that's more a function of a population of Alternate History fans. Not military history fans. In short, people trying to recommend change for the sake of change, not what is the best course to follow, or even the most likely based on current drivers.
I think that's why I keep pushing Sicily/Sardinia/Corsica/Who knows? It seems, IMHO, the best of all possible compromises ITTL, compared to the strategic options of OTL.
Again, no argument from me, but are you going to cut from Italy into Yugoslavia? Hold Italy at the Alps to force Axis troops into the Balkans then invade Southern France? Will you follow that with an invasion of Northern France or invade the Balkans? I know, it all depends on where the enemy troops are...
 
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I´ve been out of internet for 2 weeks more or less and when I´m back I find 30? pages of:


Food, Awesome updates of an Awesome TL, food, silliness, food, weaponized food, food, glorious news of a future book edition, and also food.

It´s good to see everything stays quite the same over here.

Thanks a lot Astro.

And now, to the ATL Midway between the IJN and the USN with a very probable loan of a RN carrier ...

I can´t hardly wait!
 
Again, no argument from me, but are you going to cut from Italy into Yugoslavia? Hold Italy at the Alps to force Axis troops into the Balkans then invade Southern France? Will you follow that with an invasion of Northern France or invade the Balkans? I know, it all depends on where the enemy troops are...
This is why I agree with Usertron, even if he does have a habit of changing peoples' user names when quoting text!

The Axis will be given a real headache with Crete, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica in Allied hands.

Everywhere (Balkans/Greece, Italy, South of France*) needs to be garrisoned to ensure that a beachhead can't be established before a response happens to throw it back. Taking Corsica will also please the Free French. It's not quite the Hexagon, but it's as near as they can get this year.

A few commando raids near some of the feared landing grounds could really help keep the German forces off balance. However, part of me fears that this Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica plan owes a bit too much to General Hindsight, and thus would not see too much light against socking it to the enemy on the mainland as quick as possible...

*In addition to this, Normandy, Pas de Calais etc. are under threat from Britain. Hitler can also add Norway to this list, even if it would not be a sensible use of time, resources and manpower.
 
*sigh* *facepalm* And people complain about the USA fighting its wars like a business.:rolleyes: Sounds like a good way to get the King in front of a firing squad. And a postwar Ho Chi Minh/Mao wannabe in power in Bangkok.:eek:

Fully agree. There are a lot of Thais who want out of the Japanese alliance but they won't want to give up a large chunk of territory. Would rather have the allies see the advantage of a quick peace with Thailand and turning them into allies.

Maybe. The IJN is employing interior lines here. I have to think that Nimitz is going to have to punt here. With the Ranger unusable, the Lexington and the Saratoga gone, and the Wasp in the Mediterrean, that leaves just the (ITTL) four Yorktown class members to face off against the entire Kido Butai plus whatever IJN CVLs are fast enough to keep up with them.

The US fleet's disadvantages are many. POS torpedo bombers (unless the Avengers are now on service?), still a poor level of experience and training compared to their opponents, and no BB protection. No fleet tactical organization for allowing massed carrier formations beyond pairing at this point, either.:(

The US fleet's advantages are surprise, land based air support*, aerial* and submarine reconnaissance up the ying-yang, better damage control procedures(+), SAR, better carriers (except for the Shokaku class, which were comparable), better communications, intact CAGs, (%), radar (sea and land based*)more robust aircraft, and a distinct lack of stupid overconfidence.:p

Between Nagumo and Yamaguchi on the one side, and Halsey (#) and Fletcher on the other, the level of aggressiveness on each side is a wash.
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*-Midway only. Unless the Australians are in a position to aid more directly, with both surface forces (Crace) and the RAAF & RNZAF in Port Moresby.

+-Which will only get better as American experience grows. But its already better than the IJN's.

%-Compared to their opponents, who've had some problems dealing with some tea-swilling barbarians to the West, who have had the suicidal effrontery to resist the irresistible might of Imperial Japan. Uh, somewhat.:eek: Just a little.:eek::eek: But we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget! Uh, soon. Really! As soon as we finish off the dastardly Yankees who dared to violate His Imperial Majesty's Sacred Airspace! May he live 10,000 years!:mad:

#-Of course, Astrodragon is free to play 52 pickup with US carrier commanders and captains, considering how hany butterflies have been released by now.

If as it sounds the Japanese are sending the kitchen sink it could go either way. Can't see Japan actually taking Midway, presuming something like the OTL balance of land forces but a big naval battle could see either/both sides taking horrendous losses.

It would actually probably be best, as a military decision, for the USN to hold off while the Japanese attack the islands, trying to pick them off a bit with subs, even with the current US torpedoes, then hit them with carrier attacks after they been weakened a bit. However I doubt that is politically acceptable, either within the navy or in the broader American government.

Steve
 
Wait patiently (fat hope on this TL...:eek:) and all will be revealed unto you...:p

Heck, the British have been fighting in Europe, Norway, NA, the Med, SE Asia, DEI, South China Sea, and you object to the US having to face a few little Japanese ships...:D:p

Astrodragon

I think malicoli has a point in that if the USN takes heavy losses in TTL Midway and then the RN finishes off the remains of the Japanese fleet, while a perfectly logical run of events it might be seen by some as being wankish for Britain. Its the problem of writing the TL, what you intent matters but so also is how its seen.

What would be awkward is if the Japanese go for the Coral Sea option. Presuming intel tells the USN what they will be facing are they going to try facing it, with what force? They would need to send more than 2CV but that could leave them very weak if things go badly wrong as it might. Also would the US ask the RN for help? Think this might well be likely if there is enough warning as the RN could reach that area and since it would be Britain/Australian colonies and supply lines at sake. However the timing could be difficult.

I'm far less certain about RN support for a Midway battle. That's even less likely than the idea of US carriers operating from Singapore in support of the vital Japanese targets as it would be difficult to get British ships there from Singapore in time and they would be somewhat lacking in support. This would be the best bet that the IJN should go for either Midway or the south as it would ensure fighting only one enemy.

Steve
 
Have to say that A.D did everything t not make it a britwank, and sometimes success rates were actually below otl.
The whole thing in general is well balanced, and the us navy at this point does not have that much battle experience yet. So them having not top notch result is rather plausible, in fact them showing sub-optimal results at this point might actually have better long term effects because the resolve to get even (and more) will be higher and will give them a good reality check.

So far the line of events ittl has been pretty plausible and far less a wank than the beginning of the pacific war was in otl (the japanese had loads of luck).

So i would say keep going like this A.D. , keep up the good work :)
 
Have to say that A.D did everything t not make it a britwank, and sometimes success rates were actually below otl.
The whole thing in general is well balanced, and the us navy at this point does not have that much battle experience yet. So them having not top notch result is rather plausible, in fact them showing sub-optimal results at this point might actually have better long term effects because the resolve to get even (and more) will be higher and will give them a good reality check.

So far the line of events ittl has been pretty plausible and far less a wank than the beginning of the pacific war was in otl (the japanese had loads of luck).

So i would say keep going like this A.D. , keep up the good work :)
I don't think it is a Britwank, I'm just worried it'll appear at first glance to be one, with the reasons you've given. To balance it out the UK would just need to suffer some bad luck for once in the Pacific, as so far all their plans in that theatre have been pretty much perfect. All it would take is one Japanese submarine to get lucky, for instance, for the UK to have a reasonable setback and show it's not just the USA who can have problems fighting the Japanese.

Really though I'm just impatient for ATL's Midway...
 
This is why I agree with Usertron, even if he does have a habit of changing peoples' user names when quoting text!

The Axis will be given a real headache with Crete, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica in Allied hands.

Everywhere (Balkans/Greece, Italy, South of France*) needs to be garrisoned to ensure that a beachhead can't be established before a response happens to throw it back. Taking Corsica will also please the Free French. It's not quite the Hexagon, but it's as near as they can get this year.

A few commando raids near some of the feared landing grounds could really help keep the German forces off balance. However, part of me fears that this Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica plan owes a bit too much to General Hindsight, and thus would not see too much light against socking it to the enemy on the mainland as quick as possible...

*In addition to this, Normandy, Pas de Calais etc. are under threat from Britain. Hitler can also add Norway to this list, even if it would not be a sensible use of time, resources and manpower.

I know... He really does make uncommonly good military sense usually; I'm sure that Megat... I mean User=Tron2020 ;) is ex-military somewhere. Or just a good amateur military strategian :D

I know what you mean about the hindsight thing, the logic is in there when you look; taking Sicily, Sardinia & Corsica while having Crete (& some of the other Dodecanese islands) puts the entire Italian West Coast, Southern French coast & Greece in fighter range. I'm surprised that it didn't occur to the CCoS ITL... I always thought that Operation Bodyguard was a bit thin when it came to the South of France.

ATL, well the US can ask, plead, beg, scream or threaten for Operation Roundup/Overlord/Dragoon, but until they get more forces in Europe? It's not going to happen.
 
I don't think it is a Britwank, I'm just worried it'll appear at first glance to be one, with the reasons you've given. To balance it out the UK would just need to suffer some bad luck for once in the Pacific, as so far all their plans in that theatre have been pretty much perfect. All it would take is one Japanese submarine to get lucky, for instance, for the UK to have a reasonable setback and show it's not just the USA who can have problems fighting the Japanese.

Really though I'm just impatient for ATL's Midway...
How much do you want Britain/the CW to suffer? The Navy/Air Force/Army is suffering some troubling losses, the Japanese are (or were) threatening to isolate Singapore, Hong Kong has fallen, New Britain has been invaded, Australia & New Zealand are threatened with invasion... Geez, how much more incompetent do you want us to be? :D
It's all relative; of course it looks bad, the US is only just getting started. But already compared to OTL they have an extra Yorktown-class carrier (USS Ticonderoga), Wake fell for a higher price, some of the Naval aircraft (& probably some of the land ones too) are progressing through prototype to squadron service faster...
 
How much do you want Britain/the CW to suffer? The Navy/Air Force/Army is suffering some troubling losses, the Japanese are (or were) threatening to isolate Singapore, Hong Kong has fallen, New Britain has been invaded, Australia & New Zealand are threatened with invasion... Geez, how much more incompetent do you want us to be? :D
It's all relative; of course it looks bad, the US is only just getting started. But already compared to OTL they have an extra Yorktown-class carrier (USS Ticonderoga), Wake fell for a higher price, some of the Naval aircraft (& probably some of the land ones too) are progressing through prototype to squadron service faster...

Quite right. The USN has overall done better than OTL and the RN has paid a price for it's successes.
 
28th April

The full horror of a forced march by American and Filipino prisoners - in which as many as 20,000 men are believed to have perished from disease, hunger and the savagery of their Japanese captors - is beginning to emerge. The prisoners, taken after the surrender of the Bataan peninsula earlier this month, died as they were marched 65 miles to a captured US barracks near Clark Field airbase.

Even before the march began, many of the prisoners were racked by malaria, dysentery, beriberi and other diseases. The Japanese forced the pace with clubs, bayonets and unspeakable cruelty. Dozens of men were bayoneted to death; more were beheaded, shot and beaten at the whim of their captors. Those who could not keep up were clubbed to death or buried alive.

Filipinos bore the brunt of the brutality and, it is believed, the casualties. On 11 April, as the march began, Japanese soldiers massacred some 400 Filipino officers and NCOs - hacking them to pieces with their swords. All the PoWs were looted of personal possessions. The precise number of prisoners who started - and finished - this "death march" is not known, but it is believed that one in three may have died.

The Allies make no attempt to hide the horror of the Death March - instead they use it to reinforce the opinion that the Japanese are barbarians who must be defeated totally and completely.

Cuba granted de facto recognition to Free French control over French territories in the Pacific, Equatorial Africa, and the Cameroons.

Canada has voted on conscription in a record turn-out and the country is divided on linguistic grounds. English speakers, the majority, are in favour of a draft for service overseas. The French-speaking minority, is split; initially it had been expected to vote against it, but passionate appeals by some of the Free French senior officers (brought in from Washington to argue in the debate) have swung more of the French vote in favour. As a result conscription is expected to take place, though for the moment forces sent overseas will still be volunteers.

A large convoy arrives at Singapore bringing supplies and reinforcements. Among them are a brigade of the French Foreign Legion and 1st Australian Armoured division. This will relieve the 1st Armoured, allowing them to be sent back to the Middle East for a rest and to be re-equipped with new tanks. The existing armour will be withdrawn to Singapore as a reserve; the Australians are equipped with the more recent 6-pdr Valentine tank. The convoy will also transport considerable quantities of rubber and other raw materials back to Europe.

29th April

The Luftwaffe bombers have added Norwich and York to the list of towns visited in revenge for the RAFs attacks on Essen and Rostock. They bombed and machine-gunned Norwich for over an hour two nights ago, and last night they struck York. In each case the bombers delivered about half their loads on target and despite their small numbers, caused considerable damage and killed 400 people. British experts are sure that the bombers accuracy is due to a new electronic target beam and are working on a way of confusing the pilots so that they drop their bombs in open country.

The Germans are also suffering heavy casualties on these raids. 30 bombers have been shot down out of 150 used, and many of the lost crews are instructors thrown into action to appease Hitler's rage over the RAF attacks. The raids are doing more harm to the German war effort than to the British in the long run.

In the Philippine Islands the Japanese are now shelling Corregidor heavily.

1st May

After deep consideration, the Japanese navy presents their preferred plan to draw the US Fleet into a decisive battle in the Pacific. Since the main aim is to draw the US Navy based at Pearl Harbor into a decisive battle and to defeat it, the best option is seen as a direct attack on an American island. This will be Midway, as holding Midway allows it to be used as a forward base for an attack or invasion of Hawaii. It is felt that this will be unacceptable to America, and so their fleet will be forced to do battle to defend Midway.

In order to achieve a crushing victory, the attack will consists of the five fleet carriers, operating as a group to destroy the remaining US carriers in the Pacific. The spotting of a US carrier in the Mediterranean by the Luftwaffe has puzzled the Japanese, as logic would require the carrier to be used to bolster their force in the Pacific. Japanese intelligence estimates the Americans have two operational carriers in the Pacific, possible three if the Ranger has been moved from the Atlantic. The Japanese carrier force can deal with these easily.

The main body will consist of the Japanese battleships, led by the Yamato, and escorted by at least three light carriers. This is just in case of US air attacks before the Japanese can destroy the US carriers. Once the fleet battle is won, an invasion force will be escorted to Midway. The captured island will then be used as a base to allow first air attacks then an invasion of Hawaii.

After discussions about exactly how the fleet will act, and its composition, the plan is approved and will be issued to the fleet and Pacific commands. It is expected to take around three weeks to get all the forces into position (some of the carriers are just finishing repairs), and the attack is set provisionally for the 24th May.

3rd May

The US decoders based at Pearl warm Admiral Nimitz of a proposed action by the Japanese aimed at the mid-Pacific. They consider the most likely target to be Midway island. The interception of the intelligence has been helped by the volume of traffic needed to inform the various commands. Nimitz orders immediate plans to be drawn up to counter the invasion on the assumption that it is indeed Midway. As he only has old, slow battleships available, he intends to base his fleet around two two-carrier task forces as soon as the carriers used in the Tokyo raid have returned to Pear Harbor. He is worried by the volume of traffic reported - it indicates a very heavy attack by the Japanese, and if they commit their carrier fleet his four carriers may be overwhelmed, especially if they also have to worry about a heavy Japanese surface force. He therefore passes the intelligence on to Admiral Somerville in the days despatches, asking him if it will be possible for the Royal Navy either to help by organising distracting operations in the SE Asia area, or sending direct help.
 
So yet again the Japanese are underestimating their opponents. This will be what, four US fleet carriers plus whatever Somerville can spare versus 5 Japanese fleet carriers and a number of battleships, although the allies have no apprehensions that the Japanese are going to give them a rough time, while the Japanese are expecting a walkover. How are the Japanese for fuel, do they actually have enough to get everyone out and back, and enough ships to actually carry that quantity of fuel?
 
A new update! :D :D
<cut>
The US decoders based at Pearl warm Admiral Nimitz of a proposed action by the Japanese aimed at the mid-Pacific. They consider the most likely target to be Midway island. The interception of the intelligence has been helped by the volume of traffic needed to inform the various commands. Nimitz orders immediate plans to be drawn up to counter the invasion on the assumption that it is indeed Midway. As he only has old, slow battleships available, he intends to base his fleet around two two-carrier task forces as soon as the carriers used in the Tokyo raid have returned to Pearl Harbor. He is worried by the volume of traffic reported - it indicates a very heavy attack by the Japanese, and if they commit their carrier fleet his four carriers may be overwhelmed, especially if they also have to worry about a heavy Japanese surface force. He therefore passes the intelligence on to Admiral Somerville in the days despatches, asking him if it will be possible for the Royal Navy either to help by organising distracting operations in the SE Asia area, or sending direct help.
So Nimitz has asked Somerville for help... Will he stage a distraction or send a carrier (or two for a third taskforce) to help out? Tune in as soon as Astrodragon! writes the next section! And now, a word from our sponsor...
CalBear recommends Doug-be-gone cream for those really stubborn Buffalos!
;) :p
 
It's somewhat cynical, but if the RN knows that the IJN will be focusing their forces thousands of miles away, it may well seem more efficient to focus all of their strength on giving the Japanese positions in SE Asia a proper kicking. Given British carrier strength in the region, an attack on Indochina or in support of an operation to kick the Japanese out of Borneo could be decisive.
 
The Japanese carrier force can deal with these easily.

The main body will consist of the Japanese battleships, led by the Yamato, and escorted by at least three light carriers. This is just in case of US air attacks before the Japanese can destroy the US carriers. Once the fleet battle is won, an invasion force will be escorted to Midway. The captured island will then be used as a base to allow first air attacks then an invasion of Hawaii.
You were not joking when you said that their plans would make a full turn on 100 % CRAZY! ... Holy mother of ... they do not understand the word "measure".

He therefore passes the intelligence on to Admiral Somerville in the days despatches, asking him if it will be possible for the Royal Navy either to help by organising distracting operations in the SE Asia area, or sending direct help.

I new it! ... Also I remembered that little spoiler you gave us 390 pages ago, such fickle memory is.
 
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