I just want to say that I support your Balkan ideas...
Remember that Germany imported LARGE quantities of chromium from Turkey.
If you cut that railway in Thrace, that could really hurt Germany.
I did not say I liked it or could forced to eat it only that it trumps the other offering.
but on a serious note. The IJN may have 8 decks -how many aircraft do they have?
serious question btw both aircraft and aircrew, and support staff.
BTW there will be a lot of pressure on the Brits to not only take back as many Greek Islands as possible, but also see if they can take some of the mainland back - especially w/ the Greek government in exile on Crete.
I imagine you mean the Corinth region (almost an island). Quite a big chunk to hit all at once. This would be a proper front that Germany could pour divisions and munitions into. There might be some fingers of the coastline that could offer a narrow front line. Depends on how well the invasion beaches are covered really. Egina island is bristling with long ranged artillery. The 'island' east of Khakis might be less defended, but rivalling the air support would require establishing large ports and airports on Skyros.
If you are going to go beyond islands then the coast on the Turkish border offers the largest strategic reward. Taking Bulgaria and Romania out of the picture trumps negating Italy. Especially Romania. Both in terms of oil assets and shear numbers on the eastern front.
Depends on how the surrender is organised. The Germans do not have forces in Italy, the forces they have in the west in 42 are remnants of units destroyed in Russia or garrison units of dubious mobility.
The only material risk, unless forces are pulled out of Russia, to the Italians is other Italians and if the surrender is well managed the ‘Royalist’ elements will be disarming the ‘Fascist’. and the Germans will have to fight across the Alps to get to the Po. I can also see Musso being sequestered by some currently underemployed gentlemen and having an Island holiday somewhere difficult to land on until the peace.
One other thing, If Italy surrenders ( and this I think is pretty much OTL) the Italian POW in the UK become more available for work in UK industry and there is no great clamour to return them home - the remittances were too useful and OTL there was a war going on.
I am wondering how long before the IJN gets its act together and how much notice the allies will have. I have totally lost track but 8 decks sounds like Kaga, Akagi, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Soryu, Hiyo, Junyo and? Taiho, if they are fleets Of which at least 1 is under repair and I am guessing about Taiho.
Can they Escort that? And for that matter will it be 8 or 4 here 2 there , one scouting and one doing something so fantastically subtle that no-one understands the purpose. Covering the Pacific from Midway to the Celebes.
If there is notice, well just how fast can Singapore finish a boiler cleaning and where are the UK Based carriers. We were promised Sea Eagles.
The only material risk, unless forces are pulled out of Russia, to the Italians is other Italians and if the surrender is well managed the ‘Royalist’ elements will be disarming the ‘Fascist’. and the Germans will have to fight across the Alps to get to the Po. I can also see Musso being sequestered by some currently underemployed gentlemen and having an Island holiday somewhere difficult to land on until the peace.
Gannt the Socialist (LAB) said:One other thing, If Italy surrenders ( and this I think is pretty much OTL) the Italian POW in the UK become more available for work in UK industry and there is no great clamour to return them home - the remittances were too useful and OTL there was a war going on.
Gannt the Social-Democratic Alliance (SODEMALL) said:I am wondering how long before the IJN gets its act together and how much notice the allies will have. I have totally lost track but 8 decks sounds like Kaga, Akagi, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Soryu, Hiyo, Junyo and? Taiho, if they are fleets Of which at least 1 is under repair and I am guessing about Taiho.
Gannt the Green (GRN) said:Can they Escort that? And for that matter will it be 8 or 4 here 2 there , one scouting and one doing something so fantastically subtle that no-one understands the purpose. Covering the Pacific from Midway to the Celebes.
If there is notice, well just how fast can Singapore finish a boiler cleaning and where are the UK Based carriers. We were promised Sea Eagles.
You've already got Sea Eagles.
And the Audacious has finished working up at Ceylon...
I'll keep looking and add to this post.Fleet carriers
'Ark Royal' Class - 2 - Ark Royal, Illustrious
'Formidable' Class - 5 - Formidable, Victorious, Implacable, Indefatigable, Bulwark (ready sep 41)
'Audacious' Class - 6 building
Light Carriers
'Colossus' Class - 6 - Vengeange, Glory, Ocean, Edgar, Mars, Theseus
'Majestic' Class - 6 building
plus Unicorn, carrier maintenance ship (basically a modified Colossus), and Glorious, hermes and Eagle (old pre-war carriers)
There are also escort carriers and converted merchant ships.
Perhaps there is a post where four have already been laid down (and three Majestics) in 1939? I'll keep looking.The navy asked for three Audacious class carriers; this was whittled down to two, which would be laid down in March 1940.
Three of the improved light carriers (the Majestic class) had been ordered in Dec 1939; one more was added to the program.
Well that's the first two and the last two accounted for. I seem to have the key post straddled somewhere.Current carrier building program as of 1/1/1940 (and expected completion dates)
Fleet Carriers
HMS Implacable April 1940,HMS Indefatigable June 1940,HMS Bulwark July 1941
HMS Audacious (CV8)Jun 42,HMS Irresistable Aug 42
The navy would like to order additional Audacious class carriers, but there are issues as to fitting them into the building program. Discussions are ongoing; the FAA wants more carriers at the expense of the Lion class battleships (which have barely been started, and are currently on hold), the surface ship Admirals want the battleships, as they point out the number of carriers building compared to 5 replacement battleships.
Light Fleet carriers
HMS Ocean June 1940, HMS Edgar July 1940, HMS Theseus Sep 1940
HMS Unicorn (repair ship) was originally expected in Aug 1940 , but due to the pressure of other, more urgent, work, is now not expected until Nov 1940.
The navy wants more light carriers to release the fleet carriers for more offensive roles. The Colossus class has proved very successful, and a modified, larger version has been under design for some time. This will incorporate some improvements, and allow the carriers to continue to operate the same size air group with the newer, larger planes. The arrangements are also being altered in the assumption that (by the time they are conplete), deck parks will be much more prevalent, as it is already acnowleged that their main failing is lack of aircraft.
Three ships are authorised to start building in Dec 1939; HMS Magnificent, HMS Terrible and HMS Majestic. They are expected to complete in Feb-April 1942
Anyone want to give odds on who the Allies are talking to in Italy? Ciano? Victor Emmanuel? If street food is how things get done ITTL, I'll buy Astro a DC half-smoke if he saves the Italian monarchy.![]()
Anyone want to give odds on who the Allies are talking to in Italy? Ciano? Victor Emmanuel? If street food is how things get done ITTL, I'll buy Astro a DC half-smoke if he saves the Italian monarchy.![]()
I don't want this TL to be accused of being a Britwank, so it's a pity that the Japanese had three options as to who to have a major battle with and decide to take on the US rather than the British. I assume this means if there is a costly battle for the Allies it'll be the US who takes the brunt of damage leaving the British able to keep up their very good run in the Pacific.After initial consideration, the High Command suggests that the Coral Sea and Midway options seem the most promising, as it is imperative to teach the Americans a lesson for bombing Japan and risking the life of the Emperor. The China Sea operation should be considered a follow-up to destroy the Royal Navies capapility in the area.
One problem as I see it is that Fascism as a political force is extinguished in Sicily, but grows stronger as you go north. Beyond Rome, determined military resistance by the Italian against the German Army seems to be wishful thinking, especially in the Po River region and the Italian Alps. Consider that these Italians will be fighting their former allies who have a reputation for ferocious treatment of traitors. Add on Italy's military reputation compared to Germany's...
I could see the Italians basically "opening up" to British forces and even providing essential services (ports and railroads) IF the Germans don't rush in and spoil the party. But I can't honestly see them having the cojones to actually fight the German Army head on. Not to mention having the political will. Fascism collapsed pretty fast OTL, but their were plenty of determined diehard individuals ready to alert the Germans as to what was going on and play the role of collaborators.
I could see American troops being employed here in the role of "point of the spear" to hopefully (?) lighten Italian resistance (blood ties?).
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Sardinia, Corsica. Then, it depends on where the Germans concentrate their defenses.
If Southern France, as I suspect, then Genoa. This allows penetration into the Po River valley and ultimately setting up strategic bomber bases in easy reach of Southern and Central Germany, as well as the Balkans.
If Northwestern Italy, then Southern France.
If the Germans raid the cupboard and build up on both, then Greece.
If the Germans bulk up on all three, then even Roundup becomes thinkable.
If they bulk up on all four, then the Russian Front will collapse in on them.
That means forcing the entire Adriatic Sea.
The gap between Pola/Trieste and Yugoslavia can be plugged by a couple of Panzer Corps backed up by infantry, with mountain divisions to the north.