The Whale has Wings

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abc123

Banned
Thank you. I'm just trying to keep the TL real on what GB might choose to do in 1942+.

Well If he lets them get destroyed, Stalin doesn't get them does he? Reinforcements or casualties, it's up to him. I was thinking more of fighters than bombers for the one-way journey. The more of a headache the Red Airforce causes the Luftwaffe the better. Especially near the Red Sea.

I just want to say that I support your Balkan ideas...
;)

Behold this map:

800px-TCDD_System_Map.GIF

Railway network in Turkey

Than remember that Germany imported LARGE quantities of chromium from Turkey.
If you cut that railway in Thrace, that could really hurt Germany.
 
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Obviously what happens next depends upon Italy.

If the Allies quickly wrap Italy up, by a proper spirited attack and/or the Italians successfully defecting then they may well find themselves with 6-18 months to kill before the middle of 1944.

If that happens there will be extreme pressure from Stalin to do something and if Italy is wrapped up with minimal US involvement there will be pressure there to get them involved in the action. Especially if things aren't going great for the US in the East.

The only obvious actions are, earlier Overlord, Dragoon, getting into Yugoslavia, head butting the Alps or a landing in Greece.

The French are going to like anything which sees French soil liberated, Churchill will probably favour Greece and the Americans will probably lobby for Overlord.

Whether the British get their way depends upon how unrealistic an option they can paint an invasion of France to be and also the situation elsewhere.

If British soft underbelly strategy rather bloodlessly knocked the third biggest member of Axis out and placed allied forces 300 miles from Munich then they will have a great deal of prestige to expend. If things still look good for the British in Asia and their contribution is still required there (particularly if the US has yet to win major victories) then they can probably make a good case for pressing the Greek issue.
 
Strategic concerns?

Obviously the decision on what parts of Europe to invade will depend on the quality of the ethnic foodstuffs available in the various areas...:p
 

abc123

Banned
Strategic concerns?

Obviously the decision on what parts of Europe to invade will depend on the quality of the ethnic foodstuffs available in the various areas...:p

Well, in that case, may I present two most important parts of Balkans cuisine:

0aa46f6f1cfd00b8be27439012439f3f_view_l.jpg

and
dd7ba8b4a12874c4200802702e2dd37a_view_l.jpg
 
He sees it as more important that the Allies are SEEN as doing NOTHING for Mother Russia. To the point where, when possible, he was re-packing Lend-Lease as "Gifts from the Communist Party of the USA".:mad:

There was an old story about this:

Ivan: Hey, Pavel, do you see those new jeeps we got from the Ural factories?

Pavel: Yes, the quality has improved tremendously. They are much better than the old ones. But they all have that speedometer problem...

Ivan: Yes, it reads too slow.

**
It is, of course, mph rather than km/h :D

Regards

R
 
There was an old story about this:

Ivan: Hey, Pavel, do you see those new jeeps we got from the Ural factories?

Pavel: Yes, the quality has improved tremendously. They are much better than the old ones. But they all have that speedometer problem...

Ivan: Yes, it reads too slow.

**
It is, of course, mph rather than km/h :D

Regards

R


Thats a real good one :)
 
well if its culinary and not involving this lot.


'Well Archie I’ve worked out how to repay you for that spot of leave in Chiantishire.

How’s that Claude?

I know this little bistro just up the road in Provence.'
 

Sior

Banned
Unlucky for you I know what tripe is. You like the stomach of a sheep!? No one in their right mind would want to eat something where the food isn't finished!*
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*-Dr. William F. Cosby

I did not say I liked it or could forced to eat it only that it trumps the other offering.
 
but on a seriour note. The IJN may have 8 decks -how many aircraft do they have?

serious question btw both aircraft and aircrew, and support staff.

Possibly 500 if they look hard enough. Of course that doesn't leave many of the highly-skilled pre-war pilots around. Not that that is likely to worry the Japanese....:eek:
 
There's no way Coral Sea can happen until mid May if the Japanese send the Shokaku and Zuikaku. The carrier damaged by Enterprise and Lexington bombers in the earlier battle will need to be repaired and aircraft and crew losses replaced.

More than likely if they want a full pair of carriers, they'd need to send the Akagi and Kaga.

Hyperion

Possibly I'm wrong but I read it as they were going to kitchen sink whatever operation they decided on. I.e. every available flattop plus any fast BBs and other ships they can get in support. [Which will do wonders for their oil reserves. Arguably we might be better off not sinking at least some of their ships for the moment.;)] That would also fit in with Astrodragon saying they would be using 8 carriers. As such if they do go for the Coral Sea I hope the USN sends more than 2CV that way, or nothing at all.:(

Steve
 
Just a teaser.
Yamamoto is intending to use eight carriers....:D

Astrodragon

How many of them will be fleet carriers? I think most of the refitted ships are either smaller and/or slower than their 6 fleet flattops so, depending on how many forces they use they may slow things up a bit.

You have already replied about declining pilot quality.

Steve
 
I wonder how many pages it can get to before it breaks the board softwate and Ian hits me...? :D

To help you with re-reading, I'm currently hoping Book 1 will be ready in ebook form late Autumn. With added bits :)

Astrodragon

Looking forward to that but there is of course another solution to the problem. The TL would be a lot shorter if there were more updates stopping people going off on wild and unsettling tangents.;)

Steve
 
Don't shoot, Salvatore! It's ME, your cousin Antonio!

One of the reasons I see people missing in the argument to attack Italy, is that while not in the class of the UK or Germany, Italy does produce considerable war materiel which it would be most beneficial to deny the Axis. Of course if the British can persuade Italy to join the ALlies that works even better...:D

One problem as I see it is that Fascism as a political force is extinguished in Sicily, but grows stronger as you go north. Beyond Rome, determined military resistance by the Italian against the German Army seems to be wishful thinking, especially in the Po River region and the Italian Alps. Consider that these Italians will be fighting their former allies who have a reputation for ferocious treatment of traitors. Add on Italy's military reputation compared to Germany's...:eek:

I could see the Italians basically "opening up" to British forces (1) and even providing essential services (ports and railroads) IF the Germans don't rush in and spoil the party. But I can't honestly see them having the cojones to actually fight the German Army headon. Not to mention having the political will. Fascism collapsed pretty fast OTL, but their were plenty of determined diehard individuals ready to alert the Germans as to what was going on and play the role of collaborators.:(

1) I could see American troops being employed here in the role of "point of the spear" to hopefully (?) lighten Italian resistance (blood ties?).:)
 
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Going to be left to the USN to fight the main battle against the IJN. (1)

Possibly Somerville will have some chance to do something while the Japanese CVs are absent, say raids on some of their bases or shipping. (2)

As you say Italy is a significant source of resources for the Axis, not least manpower and politically important as Germany's main ally in Europe. Its terrain is also the best for a clash with the Germans in 42 when ground forces are limited. I think that's almost certainly going to be the target for the 1st permanent landing on the mainland. However it has limited long term options so where do the allies go next? (3)

Steve

1) Well, that saves the USN's logistical problems.:) Why worry about no Fleet Train when the enemy comes to you?;)

2) Hit where would you say?:confused:

3) Sardinia, Corsica. Then, it depends on where the Germans concentrate their defenses.

a) If Southern France, as I suspect, then Genoa. This allows penetration into the Po River valley and ultimately setting up strategic bomber bases in easy reach of Southern and Central Germany, as well as the Balkans.

b) If Northwestern Italy, then Southern France.

c) If the Germans raid the cupboard, and build up on both, then Greece.

d) If the Germans bulk up on all three, then even Roundup becomes thinkable.

e) If they bulk uo on all four, then the Russian Front will collapse in on them.:mad::eek:
 
Just a teaser.
Yamamoto is intending to use eight carriers....:D

Meaning no Operation AO. Something had to give somewhere, I guess. This is actually good news for the IJN. OTL, nobody told them what the USN already knew: carriers were useless up in the Aleutians. Interesting, AD. So, Coral Sea is the diversion this time. Hmm. Surely though, no invasion attempt at Port Moresby, right? The Japs HAVE to know how heavily defended it is ITTL.:confused: Just occupying the Solomons and New Hebrides?
 
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If the Japanese do send 6-8 flattops to this ALT-Midway, they give the RN a total free hand in SEA as well as eliminating any support for their garrisons in Borneo & elsewhere. The USA with maybe 3 CVs & 250 good pilots plus some land based air from Midway (in this case better planes than OTL) so 300 good pilots & decent a/c against maybe 500 pilots of which maybe 100-150 are equal or greater quality. Interesting...

If the USA has decent warning will they be able to get any support from the RN? Would Somerville send maybe a CV and CVL to support..start the battle just south of Midway & chime in for 2nd strike or if transports/bombardment force get close enough. Also, since ITTL I would expect the Japanese won't try the Aleutian distraction, will the USA have some more surface forces available which could be used to hit the Japanese if ALT-Midway has them retreating.

BTW there will be a lot of pressure on the Brits to not only take back as many Greek Islands as possible, but also see if they can take some of the mainland back - especially w/ the Greek government in exile on Crete.
 
Yes, I believe I re-hinted about your “persuasion” of the Italians, sneaky little dragon that you are... :p Good writing, AD. J:)
Another answer to everyone’s wishlist might be to proceed with the invasion of southern Italy, then assault north-western (1) and north-eastern Italy simultaneously... then move on to Northern Yugoslavia & have a chat with Tito; he’s a realist, he’ll take any help that’s going :p
After that? I wonder if the US would go for the shortest route around the Alps to Germany... Some Viennese coffee would be nice ;) (2)

1) That means forcing the entire Adriatic Sea.:eek:

2) The gap between Pola/Trieste and Yugoslavia can be plugged by a couple of Panzer Corps backed up by infantry, with mountain divisions to the north.
 
With the Imperial troops already sitting on and digging in to the provinces that were discussed earlier prior to therains might we see some sort of deal where the Thais give up the southern provinces to Malaya and bow out of the war?

*sigh* *facepalm* And people complain about the USA fighting its wars like a business.:rolleyes: Sounds like a good way to get the King in front of a firing squad. And a postwar Ho Chi Minh/Mao wannabe in power in Bangkok.:eek:

Simon said:
Oh you crazy, crazy Japanese. Looks as though the US is going to get to contribute to the thorough kicking they're going to receive.

Maybe. The IJN is employing interior lines here. I have to think that Nimitz is going to have to punt here. With the Ranger unusable, the Lexington and the Saratoga gone, and the Wasp in the Mediterrean, that leaves just the (ITTL) four Yorktown class members to face off against the entire Kido Butai plus whatever IJN CVLs are fast enough to keep up with them.

The US fleet's disadvantages are many. POS torpedo bombers (unless the Avengers are now on service?), still a poor level of experience and training compared to their opponents, and no BB protection. No fleet tactical organization for allowing massed carrier formations beyond pairing at this point, either.:(

The US fleet's advantages are surprise, land based air support*, aerial* and submarine reconnaissance up the ying-yang, better damage control procedures(+), SAR, better carriers (except for the Shokaku class, which were comparable), better communications, intact CAGs, (%), radar (sea and land based*)more robust aircraft, and a distinct lack of stupid overconfidence.:p

Between Nagumo and Yamaguchi on the one side, and Halsey (#) and Fletcher on the other, the level of aggressiveness on each side is a wash.
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*-Midway only. Unless the Australians are in a position to aid more directly, with both surface forces (Crace) and the RAAF & RNZAF in Port Moresby.

+-Which will only get better as American experience grows. But its already better than the IJN's.

%-Compared to their opponents, who've had some problems dealing with some tea-swilling barbarians to the West, who have had the suicidal effrontery to resist the irresistible might of Imperial Japan. Uh, somewhat.:eek: Just a little.:eek::eek: But we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget! Uh, soon. Really! As soon as we finish off the dastardly Yankees who dared to violate His Imperial Majesty's Sacred Airspace! May he live 10,000 years!:mad:

#-Of course, Astrodragon is free to play 52 pickup with US carrier commanders and captains, considering how hany butterflies have been released by now.
 
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