The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thank you. I'm just trying to keep the TL real on what GB might choose to do in 1942+.

Well If he lets them get destroyed, Stalin doesn't get them does he? Reinforcements or casualties, it's up to him. I was thinking more of fighters than bombers for the one-way journey. The more of a headache the Red Airforce causes the Luftwaffe the better. Especially near the Red Sea.

He sees it as more important that the Allies are SEEN as doing NOTHING for Mother Russia. To the point where, when possible, he was re-packing Lend-Lease as "Gifts from the Communist Party of the USA".:mad:

BTW? Considering that the Red Sea is currently outside of both Axis and Soviet air range, I don't see why either the Red Air Force or the Luftwaffe would be an issue in that sector.:confused::p
 
Last edited:
The Wallies will be doing nothing until they see how Sicily/Italy plays out. what they are letting the germans think is another matter.

As far as the allies doing nothing for mother russia, so he's a whiney little bugger - he is not going to fold and there is no evidence of any attempted peace feelers in 42, the evidence for 41 and 43 is about as credible as this bloke down the pub said.....
 
That would seem to put the kibosh on a notion I was kicking around earlier this morning for yet another harebrained land front to engage the Germans on--The Iberian Front!:eek:

I don't think an Iberian Front is that harebrained, just unlikely considering that military forces are at a premium to both sides and Salazar is a good enough diplomat to balance the demands of both Britain and Germany

[/QUOTE]I quite appreciate that neither Spain nor Portugal wanted to get drawn into the war.


Again the question is, just how crippling would it be to Hitler to lose access to Portuguese tungsten?[/QUOTE]

From what I've read pretty crippling actually. Germany needed the tungsten to produce its armor piercing shells as well as bearings,high-speed cutting tools, and pretty anything else that needed hardened steel.

[/QUOTE]So I guess cutting off the Reich's tungsten is out, until the Allies can conquer at least southern France by another route. But neither do the Allies have to worry about Portugal or Spain turning on them either. [/QUOTE]

Agreed. Although I'd expect Britain to successfully pressure Portugal into cutting down the amount it exports.

also if anyone can tell me how to get these quotes working properly it would be greatly appreciated
 
I don't think an Iberian Front is that harebrained, just unlikely considering that military forces are at a premium to both sides and Salazar is a good enough diplomat to balance the demands of both Britain and Germany

I quite appreciate that neither Spain nor Portugal wanted to get drawn into the war.


Again the question is, just how crippling would it be to Hitler to lose access to Portuguese tungsten?

From what I've read pretty crippling actually. Germany needed the tungsten to produce its armor piercing shells as well as bearings,high-speed cutting tools, and pretty anything else that needed hardened steel.

So I guess cutting off the Reich's tungsten is out, until the Allies can conquer at least southern France by another route. But neither do the Allies have to worry about Portugal or Spain turning on them either.

Agreed. Although I'd expect Britain to successfully pressure Portugal into cutting down the amount it exports.

also if anyone can tell me how to get these quotes working properly it would be greatly appreciated

Captain Jack

You need to have [_QUOTE]text[/QUOTE] rather than [/QUOTE]test[/QUOTE] - without the "_" character. Tried it without that and of course it put the text in quotes rather than displaying the command.:eek:

The [_QUOTE] opens the quote section and the [/QUOTE] closes it. Similarly with other commands such as font changes or bolding text.

Alternatively just use the quote option on the window, 2nd from the right in the 2nd row above. Line starting with a deep B for the bolding tool.

Hope that helps.

Steve
 
Shevek23

Interesting idea on Spain and I think possibly a good one. I suspect the thing you're overlooking is that I don't think the western allies need to offer Franco anything other than support if, due to Portugal cutting supplies, Germany attacks Spain. Plus of course that if Franco was to side with Hitler the allies would no longer supply food and other imports, would take over the Spanish colonies and would ensure that Spain had a new ruler after the war.;) He might be far from certain yet who is winning, as was just about everybody, but he knows things aren't going to be a walk over.

If the allies can pressurise Portugal to cut tungsten, or better still come over fully to the allies, aided by some generous plums probably, then I'm not sure whether Hitler can do that much. His forces in the west are pretty limited and the eastern quadmire is going to get steadily worse. While he also has to guard other areas of a huge border. True the allies aren't that powerful yet to face the Germans in a real head on battle on a broad front so probably better leave it until 43. However cutting tungsten from Germany and getting Portuguese bases would be a big gain and if Hitler was stupid enough to attack Spain to try and reach Portugal I think its a win-win for the allies.

True getting over the Pyrnees into France would be difficult but by 44 they could apply overwhelming air power operating from Spanish bases and also use their amphibious forces to bypass the overstretched German defences.

I suspect that Franco would sit tight and Hitler wouldn't try and march through Spain but if he did you could make NE Spain a killing ground for the Germans.

Steve
 
21st April

USAAF Major General Brett assumes command of the Allied Air Forces, which has units based in northern and eastern Australia, with advanced facilities in the Port Moresby, New Guinea, area. He will report to General Blamey as overall commander. Admiral Crace has been placed in command of the naval forces in the area, although until Japanese intentions become clear Somerville retains his heavy ships eastward. Crace will deploy a mixed force of cruisers and destroyers with the two Australian light carriers to harass the Japanese (with the aid of the RN submarines), but is not to engage a heavy task force.

The Germans request the assistance of the Italian Navy to deal with the ramshackle Soviet flotilla on Lake Ladoga (estimated at 6 gunboats, 2 large and 5 small torpedo boats, 32 armed minesweepers, 9 armed transport ships, 17 armed tugboats and 1 submarine, plus another 25 other boats).
The Italian Navy promptly agreed and sent the four torpedo boats of 12th MAS Flotilla, commanded by Capitano di Corvetta (Lt-Comm) Bianchini. The Italians have received assurances from the Germans that no RN Carriers are present on the lake.

In Washington DC, the federal government decides to build the "Big Inch" oil pipeline from Texas to New York so Allied tankers won't have to run the German submarine gauntlet along the East Coast. This pipeline has a diameter of 24", the highest-capacity oil pipeline ever built.

22nd April

The raid on Tokyo by US B-25 bombers has caused immense consternation in the Japanese command, as well as much loss of face - the Emperor could have been injured or even killed. As a result an emergency re-appraisal of the impending IJN operations is ordered. The Americans cannot be allowed to get away with such an attack on the Japanese home islands, even if it means altering or postponing operations originally thought to be more militarily important.

One consequence of the attack is that Admiral Somerville has made arrangements for his heavy units, particularly his fleet carriers, to undergo boiler and bottom-cleaning at Singapore as fast as possible. It is expected that the raid will sting the Japanese into some sort of retaliation, and he wants the fleet to be as prepared as possible. Similar activity takes place at Pearl Harbor, although the wide disposition of naval units makes this more difficult. Nimitz's actions are expected to hinge on how well his code-breakers can decrypt Japanese signals, something they are becoming increasingly adept at. Daily summaries are being flown to Singapore to keep the breaking of the codes secret.

23rd April

In retaliation for the recent RAF raids, the Luftwaffe raids Exeter at night. Considerable damage was done, as this was the first major raid in a considerable time, however the RAF night fighters took a heavy toll of the bombers. The number of aircraft used by the Luftwaffe is far fewer than in the heavy night raids of early 1941, and it is believed that they no longer have the bombers to cause more than occasional disruption by this means. The increased performance of the RAF defences, and the better radar now in use means that unless the Germans can invent some new method of penetrating the defences that the raids will continue to suffer severe losses which will limit their effectiveness even more.

24th April

The Australian-led attack on the Japanese in Thailand reaches its 'stop line' and halts major offensive action in the east and central parts. This is basically the line of defence originally intended to be taken by Operation Matador. While it would be possible to continue further, there are two considerations; first the start of the monsoon season is expect very soon, and stopping now allows supplies to be brought up under relatively benign conditions, and second Blamey and Alexander have been informed that secret negotiations are underway with an anti-Japanese faction of the Thai military/government. The attacks to destroy the Japanese to the west will continue until they are destroyed; the Japanese infantry are still fighting hard, but have run out of artillery ammunition and are thought to be low on all other supplies.

An emergency meeting of the Japanese General Staff comes to the decision that 'a heavy and devastating response must be made to teach the foreign barbarians a lesson.' Accordingly the Navy is tasked with coming up with an immediate plan. The Navies immediate response is that they have three options. First, and attack on the Royal Navy in the South China Sea to drive it back past Singapore and allow new landings in Malaya and Borneo. Second is an attack into the Coral Sea area to take New Guinea and draw in elements of the US Navy, allowing them to be destroyed. Third is an attack on the island of Midway, close enough to Hawaii to force the US fleet to defend it. These operations would use the carrier force (it is expected that repairs currently underway will be finished shortly), backed by the battleships. The intention is to attack a vital target in such force as to destroy the offensive options of the enemy for a considerable period, probably for a year.
After initial consideration, the High Command suggests that the Coral Sea and Midway options seem the most promising, as it is imperative to teach the Americans a lesson for bombing Japan and risking the life of the Emperor. The China Sea operation should be considered a follow-up to destroy the Royal Navies capapility in the area.

25th April

A new RAF raid by some 300 bombers attacks the Heinkel works at Rostock. Thanks to the efforts of the Pathfinders later reconnaissance reports show considerable damage to the factory. However a considerable number of the bombers missed the target due to desception measures. Losses were again low, but intelligence is reporting urgent Luftwaffe efforts to modify fighters to allow them to intercept the Coventry bombers. While existing fighters can reach the 35,000 feet needed, performance is poor at this height. This has been anticipated by the RAF, one of the reasons for delaying the bombing campaign being to allow a useful number of the new heavy bomber to be deployed to make use of the period before German defences were improved.

Paris is exhilarated today by the news that General HenriGitaud, who has been a prisoner of war since he was captured in June 1940, has escaped to Switzerland. The 63-year-old general's escape has given a boost to French morale. He succeeded in freeing himself from the castle at Königstein, in Saxony, which has been turned into a maximum-security prison, jumped on board a moving train and reached the French border. He is expected to join the Free French army currently in North Africa.
 
One of the reasons I see people missing in the argument to attack Italy, is that while not in the class of the UK or Germany, Italy does produce considerable war materiel which it would be most beneficial to deny the Axis. Of course if the British can persuade Italy to join the ALlies that works even better...:D
 
Astrodragon

Excellent, an update. Even if it means frustration for the RN once the Japanese issue their orders. Going to be left to the USN to fight the main battle against the IJN. Possibly Somerville will have some chance to do something while the Japanese CVs are absent, say raids on some of their bases or shipping. Doubt any invasion of any size would be practical while the monsoon is on but possibly starting to think about the liberation of the occupied part of Borneo. Which would deny them any chance of oil from the island and push back their forward positions? Or simply supporting reinforcement missions for allied forces on Borneo. [A side trip to Lake Ladoga is another option of course.:p]

Anyway, looking good.

As you say Italy is a significant source of resources for the Axis, not least manpower and politically important as Germany's main ally in Europe. Its terrain is also the best for a clash with the Germans in 42 when ground forces are limited. I think that's almost certainly going to be the target for the 1st permanent landing on the mainland. However it has limited long term options so where do the allies go next?

Steve
 

Hyperion

Banned
There's no way Coral Sea can happen until mid May if the Japanese send the Shokaku and Zuikaku. The carrier damaged by Enterprise and Lexington bombers in the earlier battle will need to be repaired and aircraft and crew losses replaced.

More than likely if they want a full pair of carriers, they'd need to send the Akagi and Kaga.
 
There's no way Coral Sea can happen until mid May if the Japanese send the Shokaku and Zuikaku. The carrier damaged by Enterprise and Lexington bombers in the earlier battle will need to be repaired and aircraft and crew losses replaced.

More than likely if they want a full pair of carriers, they'd need to send the Akagi and Kaga.


Just a teaser.
Yamamoto is intending to use eight carriers....:D
 
Well perfectgeneral, it looks like you feel pretty strongly about the Balkan issue. Although there is a case for it ATL with NA secure, I’m not sure the stronger Allied forces present a good enough case for action there.
What do we know or can surmise about a campaign through the Balkans? Why would it be advisable? Well, putting aside the issue of L-L supplies through a Black Sea route (that needs Soviet shipping to collect from captured Black Sea ports), it’s the shortest route to Romania where the main Axis fuel supply is. Cut that off or destroy the wells & their capacity for action is greatly reduced; less U-boats, aircraft & military vehicles can be used. Take/ruin the Hungarian oil fields as well & that’s a lot of Germans walking everywhere :D
Liberating Greece, Yugoslavia & Albania is a factor, as is eliminating Bulgaria & Romania as Axis partners. It’s also the shortest land route through to Eastern Europe; Churchill was no fan of communism, so the opportunity to ensure the freedom of Central Europe (particularly Poland) & the Baltic republics figures in there along with reducing the Red influence already present.

I don’t believe anyone is advocating following OTL to the letter (except possibly AD to relieve his workload with the TL! :p), although hindsight might be a factor for all of us.

Considering the CW viewpoint isn’t enough; like it or not, this is now an ALLIED decision. Churchill might be totally in favour of this campaign (although FM Alan Brooke, his CCoSC, is not), we know Roosevelt will follow Marshall’s advice, but what will DeGaulle (or whomever is the majority leader of the Free French forces) say? They have a much bigger, well equipped force ATL, so their response is more important. We know what Stalin wants, but the Eastern Front could still collapse before a 2nd Front is opened.
Politics aside, what do the Allied CCoS recommend? Brooke wants to secure Sicily first before any other operations; OTL the French didn’t get a say, ATL they’ll probably want something along the lines of Operation Dragoon instead of Roundup/Sledgehammer/Overlord (forcing the Allies to liberate ALL of France before moving on Germany). The Americans? They want the European War over soonest so they can switch focus to the Pacific.

Kesselring showed them that Italy could only be a spoiling action. US politics had something to do with the target selection. It was a compromise, not GB getting her way. Churchill has other ideas.

That’s partly right. Invading Italy was no-one’s first choice in OTL, but it could have gone better/faster.
There, as here, the Brits wanted the Mediterranean secured (which meant securing Cyprus, Crete & the Dodecanese; ATL that’s already underway/accomplished); the Americans want to invade France ASAP (so Operation Roundup/Sledgehammer but don’t have the manpower in theatre yet – and they’re unblooded); ATL the FF will lean in the direction of the Americans, but they’re still a minority partner (even more than the US).
Italy was a compromise; a limited conflict to stage amphibious landings (as a dry-run for later), let the US troops (& their commanders) get some combat experience & to properly integrate the Allied forces in theatre.

Anyone have anything on the Soviet Danube Campaign? In September 1944 the USSR declared war on Bulgaria. I think Churchill would like to be in a position to head that off, Maybe even drive up the Danube on the opposite bank to the Soviet forces.

Don't forget that in Stalin's mind it's the "Imperialists" who are always the main enemy.

Indeed. We know what happened OTL at the Yalta & Potsdam Conferences... although that’s hindsight for you.

The OTL Soviet Balkans campaign (there wasn’t a Danube campaign per se) started in July 1944. The Red Army routed the Germans in W Ukraine (& scuppered the hopes of Ukrainian independence), then entered Moldova. After a coup headed by King Michael overthrew the government of Ion Antonesceu in August, Romanian troops attacked the Germans around Bucharest & the oil fields of Ploiesti. With the German withdrawal into Hungary, Romania surrendered; the Soviets ignored it (since they didn’t have a peace treaty), occupied Romania then assaulted Hungary & passed into Yugoslavia in support of Tito’s partisans. In early September Bulgaria also overthrew it’s government; the Soviets then DoW’d them, occupied NE Bulgaria including the Black Sea ports with no opposition. Bulgaria changed sides, DoW’d Germany & it’s army joined the Soviets in Yugoslavia. The German forces in Greece & Albania were cut off with the liberation of Yugoslavia in November, Budapest held on until February 1945 & Hungary capitulated after the last German offensive (attempting to protect Hungary’s oil fields) in March.
626px-Eastern_Front_1943-08_to_1944-12.png



Churchill doesn’t want to drive up the bank of the Danube opposite the Soviets; he wants to cut them off at the Ukrainian border! Unfortunately that puts the British/Allied army in the way of the majority of heavily armed Germans... & again it’s easier for them to reinforce.

Well, I guess this clears up the mystery of Portuguese neutrality then!

Shevek, just a note; did you know the Latin-Americans were making noises for an Iberian campaign at the time? I don’t think there was enough influence for the Allies to actually move on it though with Spain & Portugal holding firmly to an officially neutral stance. BTW, the Portuguese government never did DoW Japan; the colonists on Timor took independent action without official approval.

Stevep, I don’t think there’s anything that the Allies could offer Franco that he particularly wants; apart from possibly food & for Spain to be left alone.

One of the reasons I see people missing in the argument to attack Italy, is that while not in the class of the UK or Germany, Italy does produce considerable war materiel which it would be most beneficial to deny the Axis. Of course if the British can persuade Italy to join the Allies that works even better...

AN UPDATE!!!! WHOOP! :D
Yes, I believe I re-hinted about your “persuasion” of the Italians, sneaky little dragon that you are... :p Good writing, AD. J
Another answer to everyone’s wishlist might be to proceed with the invasion of southern Italy, then assault north-western and north-eastern Italy simultaneously... then move on to Northern Yugoslavia & have a chat with Tito; he’s a realist, he’ll take any help that’s going :p
After that? I wonder if the US would go for the shortest route around the Alps to Germany... Some Viennese coffee would be nice ;)

Edit: I originally said the Soviets entered ESTONIA from the Ukraine then entered Romania... This was a typo; I did, of course, mean MOLDOVA. My sincere apologies :eek:
 
Last edited:
Two comments.

You say sommerville was holding his heavy ships eastward. Since you were talking of australia at the time, i suspect you meant westwards, not that they were based in eg fiji.

Italian torpedo boats in lake ladoga!? This is so wierd it almost has to be otl. How do you get naval units from italy to the baltic? And why dont the germans use their own eboats?
 
Good, more for Ark, Enterprise and Warspite to send to the bottom.

Also just as a suggestion Astro might it be worth setting up a story devoted thread as i love this story so much, but 400 pages does make reading it in one sitting (for the 3rd time) difficult
 
Good, more for Ark, Enterprise and Warspite to send to the bottom.

Also just as a suggestion Astro might it be worth setting up a story devoted thread as i love this story so much, but 400 pages does make reading it in one sitting (for the 3rd time) difficult

I wonder how many pages it can get to before it breaks the board softwate and Ian hits me...? :D

To help you with re-reading, I'm currently hoping Book 1 will be ready in ebook form late Autumn. With added bits :)
 
The Italians have received assurances from the Germans that no RN Carriers are present on the lake.
:)


The increased performance of the RAF defences, and the better radar now in use means that unless the Germans can invent some new method of penetrating the defences that the raids will continue to suffer severe losses which will limit their effectiveness even more.
Looks as though we could be seeing the Vergeltungswaffen if not soon then in the near future.


While it would be possible to continue further, there are two considerations; first the start of the monsoon season is expect very soon, and stopping now allows supplies to be brought up under relatively benign conditions, and second Blamey and Alexander have been informed that secret negotiations are underway with an anti-Japanese faction of the Thai military/government.
With the Imperial troops already sitting on and digging in to the provinces that were discussed earlier prior to therains might we see some sort of deal where the Thais give up the southern provinces to Malaya and bow out of the war?


After initial consideration, the High Command suggests that the Coral Sea and Midway options seem the most promising, as it is imperative to teach the Americans a lesson for bombing Japan and risking the life of the Emperor. The China Sea operation should be considered a follow-up to destroy the Royal Navies capability in the area.
Oh you crazy, crazy Japanese. Looks as though the US is going to get to contribute to the thorough kicking they're going to receive.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top