The Whale has Wings

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Hyperion

Banned
Dec 22nd
The USS Wasp and the USS Ticonderoga and their escorts sail from the West Coast, destination Pearl Harbor. The availability of light and escort carriers in the Atlantic has allowed the USN to allocate all its fleet carriers to the Pacific theatre. They are also acting as escorts carrying more Wildcats for the fleet and a load of the new Corsair fighter (which is not yet carrier-qualified)

I like how you mention wanting to keep the Wasp in the Atlantic when she is already in the Pacific in December 1941


Rear Admiral Wilcox commanding Task Force 39 with the battleship USS Washington (BB-56), the aircraft carrier USS Wasp, the heavy cruisers USS Wichita and Tuscaloosa and six destroyers, sails from Portland, Maine, for Gibralter. It is intended to include them in the Allied naval force starting to build up to support amphibious operations. Originally they had been tasked for the Pacific, but Roosevelt wants to have ships in place as part of the allied fleet. It is intended to replace the Washington with one of the older, slower battleships as soon as one can be sent to the Mediterranean

If I didn't know any better Astro, I'd suspect you where some sort of closet racist sockpuppet of 67th Tigers.
 
I like how you mention wanting to keep the Wasp in the Atlantic when she is already in the Pacific in December 1941



If I didn't know any better Astro, I'd suspect you where some sort of closet racist sockpuppet of 67th Tigers.


So the US changed their minds and did send the USS Wasp to the Med, what exactly is your problem?
 
I like how you mention wanting to keep the Wasp in the Atlantic when she is already in the Pacific in December 1941
If I didn't know any better Astro, I'd suspect you where some sort of closet racist sockpuppet of 67th Tigers.

HEY!! WRONG TL HYPERION!

Racist!? WTF!? Sockpuppet??:rolleyes::confused::p While 67 apparently does have a meat puppet, it most assuredly is NOT Astrodragon.:mad::mad::mad: You want proof? The US Navy is still afloat.:D Astrodragon is writing his heart out to develop a beautifully written and WELL-BALANCED story thread.:) No complaints. I think that Astrodragon is simply acting on FDR's instincts to get US combat troops' "boots on the ground" in the ETO before January 1st, 1943, even if it means just a little bit.

I suspect that the Wasp rather than the Ranger being used is because this fleet is sailing much more in harms way than the Ranger ever did in Operation Torch (and maybe Norway?). As to the USS Washington over the old WWI battleships, there may not be any available right now that have had their 1.1" AA guns replaced by 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oerlikons yet. If I were sailing into harms way in a battleship designed and built before the development of naval air striking power, I wouldn't want to be stuck with those worthless 1.1"ers either. Especially after what happened ITTL to BOTH of the 1.1" AA equipped Lexingtons.:(
 
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I like how you mention wanting to keep the Wasp in the Atlantic when she is already in the Pacific in December 1941



If I didn't know any better Astro, I'd suspect you where some sort of closet racist sockpuppet of 67th Tigers.

Who the hell do you think you are to throw around stupid baseless accusations of racism? Just what is it with your attitude? After all the time you've been here you still haven't learned that being helpful/knowledgable does not allow you to act like a total jerk. Maybe one of the Mods need to teach you that lesson.
 
exactly, have their AA updated, and then send them to to the med, where these battleships slower speed doesn't make that much difference (smaller distances).
 

sharlin

Banned
What the hell Hyperion? How can the US sending forces to the Med be conscrewed as racism??

Astro's writing a bloody superb timeline where he's trying to be balanced and impartial and then you accuse him of racism :s
 
Might be worth chilling out a bit. Maybe Hyperion IS commenting on the wrong thread. Mistakes happen to everyone, (said the Hedgehog climbing off the scrubbing brush). If that's the case then I'm sure Hyperion will be happy to apologise.
If not, well, it's only the internet, and one duff comment hopefully won't derail a very enjoyable thread. Worst case scenario - there's always the ignore function. :)
 
GAH! Spoilers!:mad:

Some of us have to live with tape delays.:(

And feel free to get jingoistic about that because you'd be unquestionably in the right: BBC beats the living hell out of NBC when it comes to covering the Olympics. I've spent the whole week pining for my old flat in Glasgow with the seven digital channels they activated specially for the Beijing games...
We've 24 HD ones this time, plus 2 summary channels.
 
Maybe Hyperion is commenting on the wrong thread, but I doubt it, maybe he was the worse for drink.

He should take action against whoever educated him. You racist version of a person banned for racism, you racist racist you, what the hell does that mean? A person who is racially prejudiced against races that are racially prejudiced, aimed at the American race? Which one, Indianapolis or Daytona? Or is it an accusation that Astro is racially prejudiced against Americans on account of the Americans being racially prejudiced?

Anyway he may not have understood the level of offence that accusations of racism especially totally unwarranted and distinctly personal cause in the UK. Calling Americans racist is probably not a good move either.

A legitimate question based on Hyperions jerkish comments and not looking back through the thread is, has the US changed its deployment policy?

The TF 39 dates, ships and commanders (so far anyway) are OTL I think. Astro did comment on Wasp being redployed to the Pacific and the wording could either mean redeployed permanently or not needed for ASW duties in the short term. But that to undertake a ferry passage to Pearl that lasts 6-8 days leaving on 22 December. Based on OTL Wasp would have been the go to for any ferry missions since but is unnacoiunted for and could be anywhere.

As other have said the conditions in the Pacific do not need every US carrier (doubt if there are escorts for one thing) and if there is something upcoming in the Med the US really does need to participate especially on the back of the Bolero/Roundup fiasco. [ Our strategy is that you immediately attack the Germans while we, we , we will do something important, really it is.]
 
The Wasp has spent recent months acting as a ferry between Pearl and the West coast. As has been mentioned, the USN is short of escorts (made worse by the prewar doctrine of using single-carrier groups), and could not support another TF, but they really needed the aircraft.

They have 4 fleet carriers in the Pacific, and this is currently seen as the most they can easily operate; with the RN carriers there isn't the panic to get every deck possible into Pearl.

The Med deployment has two functions. First it is political - at the moment, the US is not happy that their allies are doing very well thankyou against the Japanese while they just seem to be losing the PI. So stressing its a WORLD war by aiding the Allies in the Med is good. Its not as if they could do much in the Pacific with the extra forces. The second reason is to allow the USN and the RN to train together with carriers and heavy ships (probably in the Indian Ocean from Alexandria) for a month or two. This has never been done, and its rather obvious that at some point they will be cooperating in Asia/Pacific waters. best to find the problems before going into battle.

The Med isnt that far away - they can get to the Pacific fairly quickly if something happens, after all. Its a temporary deployment - the aim is to send some of the older, slower BB's to the Med, and if a carrier is free that would give the USN useful practice in supporting amphibious attacks.
 
exactly, have their AA updated, and then send them to to the med, where these battleships slower speed doesn't make that much difference (smaller distances).

Actually, OTL, that was-is-will be done at absolute breakneck speed at this point. The US Navy's capital ships have AAA priority for anti-aircraft gun improvement. The unsuitability of the 1.1 "ers and 50 cals are already well known. And no one is trying to block THIS action. By this time, most of the carriers, and ALL new ships, have already gotten the 40mm's and 20mm's. The Lexingtons were just a sad exception.
 
exactly, have their AA updated, and then send them to to the med, where these battleships slower speed doesn't make that much difference (smaller distances).

Until the U-Boats are substantially defeated, AND the US has had a chance to build up its destroyer force, the escorts for the old battleships simply won't be available. Without the need for them to escort convoys due to the lack of an Axis heavy surface threat in the ETO, they really don't have a job at the moment. The Pacific beckons, but just as in the Atlantic, no escorts. Not for those old battleships. Not until the U-Boats are beaten, and every carrier, cruiser, and NEW battleship have sufficient escort protection. Which is why OTL the old battleships didn't see serious action until the Aleutians. There, at least, the threat of enemy air power and even submarine forces were minimal. It was mostly a surface naval conflict up there. Lots of fog, you know.
 
Well, if the US feels it necessary to send a carrier off somewhere detached from the Pacific Fleet, Wasp would be the most logical choice, since both she & Ranger are several knots slower than the other carriers, while Ranger's too lightly built to be exposed to sharp, pointy objects, & if somebody has to be sent to the Med, her airgroup, if composed similarly to OTL is about 3 dozen fighters & a similar number of dive bombers, would be more suited for conditions there, given the greater air threat & the Italian fleet no longer being a serious issue that'd require torpedo planes.

As for the escort situation, right now, as a crude guesstimate, the USN should have about about ~100 or so modern destroyers in service (59 of the assorted ~1500 ton types, 13 1850 ton 'leaders' which weren't fitted with DP guns to make treaty displacement limits & a couple dozen or so of the Benson/Livermore classes, though some are still working up, and few dozen more of those plus a handful of Fletchers will enter service later in 1942. There'll be over 100 more coming on line in 1943, but there's a lot that can happen before then.

On top of this, without the transfer of 50 WW1 flush-deck ships TTL, there's around 121 of those in service as destroyers (minus a few of the Asiatic Fleet units that have been lost & a couple others picked off by U-boats or wrecked in a storm if things in the Atlantic are going similar to OTL for the USN), plus the Allen (only survivor of the pre-flush deck, high-forecastle 1000 ton types) for second-line duty such as convoy escort, though many of those will need substantial overhaul work, and/or refitting before they can really be used, as well as 48 other flush-deck hulls in subsidary roles, 26 of which (the 18 fast minesweepers & 8 minelayers) retain all destroyer capabilities except torpedoes, & several more (the seaplane tender & APD conversions) that could be used to escort convoys if necessary.

Outside of destroyers, though I don't have precise numbers, there's several dozen other ships which have some use in coastal patrol, convoy escort, & other such work- the Coast Guard cutters, minesweepers, a few left-over "Eagle boats" from WW1, armed yachts & trawlers, etc.)

IOTL, the first DEs entered service in early 1943, though with that escort design that the RN ordered a few of from US yards, there should be something similar available somewhat faster TTL.

Still, with several carrier TFs, probably a surface action group or two, possibly needing to reinforce the contingent of the Asiatic Fleet still fighting in the DEI, & a bunch of convoys & ASW patrols, things are going to be awfully tight escort-wise until 1943, even if significant losses such as those of the OTL Guadalcanal campaign can be avoided.
 
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DD951

Agreed with all. The Wasp and Ranger were slower than fleet speed, but they weren't Hermes class slow either. Just too slow to keep up with other ships at flank speed.

As to destroyer assignments, beyond beating the U-Boats I would still see the absolute priority being carrier protection. If NO battleships can be escorted, so be it. Any one carrier group is worth far far more than a surface action group. Especially considering that at this time in the war the US Navy is in no position to go someplace in the Pacific to make battle, and STAY there. Not in terms of taking ground. Not for several months.

The FOUR Yorktowns of TTL will do for hit-and-run raids, but unless the RN, RAF, and CW forces deliver something of a Midway with a British accent:cool:, it will be sometime before the USN has the mojo to take the IJN head on.
 


I like how you mention wanting to keep the Wasp in the Atlantic when she is already in the Pacific in December 1941



If I didn't know any better Astro, I'd suspect you where some sort of closet racist sockpuppet of 67th Tigers.

You know better than to insult people like that. Since this isn't your first offense, you can take a week off.
 

sharlin

Banned
Also regarding the Wasp and Ranger they were not really built for frontline pacific action the Ranger was too small whilst the Wasp sacrificed too much in terms of staying power and structural strength to carry her fairly large airgroup.
 
28th March

The Japanese, moving into position for all-out offensive against Bataan, feint against I Corps and push in the outpost line of Sector D on the II Corps front. Increasingly heavy air and artillery bombardment of Bataan is lowering the efficiency of the defence force as well as destroying badly needed materiel. Efforts to run the blockade and supply the garrison with necessary items have failed, and the supply situation is growing steadily worse.

U. S. Navy codebreakers at Pearl Harbor decipher a message that reveals the Japanese plan a major offensive north of Australia in early May. The conclusion is drawn that the IJN expects to have finished repairs to its damaged carriers by then.

German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop asks the Japanese Ambassador to Germany Count Oshima to secure a Japanese attack on Russia simultaneously with Germany's "crushing blow." The Japanese would attack at Vladivostok and Lake Baikal

The Imperial General Staff publish their plans for containment and offensive operations against the Japanese. These are considered general aims at present, as some are dependent on others, and the Monsoon is due to start soon in SE Asia. The planned operations are as follows.

(1) Alexander is to push the Japanese out of Malaya, and establish a front far enough north to link up with Burma and to stop the Japanese attacking Burma from the south.

(2) Following on, the Japanese are to be driven out of Thailand; the status of Thailand will be determined afterwards. This will secure Burma and Malaya, as well as the overland supply routes to China.

(3) When practical, the Japanese are to be pushed back north through French Indo-China, in cooperation with a Chinese offensive. This will allow easier Chinese supply, and make Singapore, Malaya and Burma secure.

(4) The Allied forces under Blamey will reduce the Japanese forces in the DEI. The priority will be the DEI, Borneo and the Celebes (as well as New guinea). It is hoped that the USA will provide some ground troops.

(5) Once the DEI and Celebes are secure, an invasion force to retake the PI will be built up. This is expected to consist of mainly US troops.

(6) The RN and associated Imperial naval forces will secure the Malay peninsula and the DEI was far east as New Guinea. Operations will be coordinated with the USN, especially operations in the East. It is expected that the IJN will intervene, and the opportunity will be taken to weaken it further.

(7) In cooperation with the USAAF, the attacks in the DEI/Celebes will be uses to draw in and destroy the Japanese air force. It is considered that the Japanese cannot stand an attritional campaign, which the allies huge industrial base makes possible for them.

The Australian troops having closed the pocket now give way to a second Indian division moved up from the south. The fresh troops allow the pressure on the pocket to continue, while the Australians and the armour reform to thrust north. The strike down the east coast of Thailand has made good progress - the troops initially tasked to defend this area have been pulled eastwards in an attempt to force a way through to the trapped troops. As the situation in the DEI looks to be contained - the only Japanese left are around 3,000 men on Bali, which he feels the Dutch can handle, and the IJN seems to be unable to form up a convoy and escorts, he releases some of his reserve force to reinforce the attack. An additional Brigade from each of 18th British Division and 8th Australian Division will soon be heading north up the peninsular. Somerville has recalled all his U-class boats to blockade the coast of Thailand in case Yamashita attempts to reinforce or evacuate by sea.

29th March

In Britain, Bomber command has been building up its aircraft for a major offensive against the Ruhr and the coastal industrial cities building U-boats. This offensive will include new aircraft - the first full use of the high-altitude Coventry bombers, as well as new navigation aids. The Mosquito-equipped Pathfinder crews are now fully trained in these. Bomber command expect the offensive to last at least three months, depending on the weather and the casualty rate. The intention is to cripple the industrial heart of the Ruhr and the main U-boat construction yards.

30th March

Admiral Chester Nimitz is put forward by the USA as Commander in Chief, Pacific Ocean Area (CINCPOA). The Allies have no objections to this; the Royal Navy is already fully committed without any diversions into the Pacific. It is agreed that the local subordinate commanders will consult about operations on the Pacific/Malay Barrier area.

The Japanese pocket is slowly being closed as the Imperial forces hammer it with artillery and airpower. The Japanese have little heavy equipment, and have started to resort to suicidal infantry charges. Some of these have succeeded (at great cost), allowing some Japanese to break free and head north, but in no condition to do more than annoy the Imperial forces. With two Indian divisions containing the Japanese, the Australian troops start their move north, led by a brigade of the 1st Armoured. Alexander is preparing backup troops to be available, either for the pocket (in case the Japanese look like breaking out) or, more likely, to support the advance north.

In Burma, Slim's forces have now reached the lower part of the Kra peninsular and have started to meet opposition from the Japanese. Slim has requested for armour support, which will be sent by sea to the closest port able to land the tanks. In the meantime he has established positions just inside Thailand, securing the passes into Burma. At present the Thai army is an unknown quantity. It has not yet intervened, and it is believed there is considerable political argument in the Thai government about what to do. The hardliners who supported the Japanese wish to attack the Imperial forces; the other factions are pointing to the lack of success of the Japanese and the fact that they will be facing a thoroughly annoyed British Empire, quite possibly without any Japanese help at all. The hardliners have not been helped by the way the Japanese have acted while in Thailand; they have behaved more like an army of conquest than as allies, and their treatment of the local inhabitants has causes considerable enmity
 
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28th March

(3) When practical, the Japanese are to be pushed back north through French Indo-China, in cooperation with a Chinese offensive. This will allow easier Japanese supply, and make Singapore, Malaya and Burma secure.

Why make it easier for the Japanese to be supplied?

Torqumada
 
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