The Whale has Wings

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They've already lost one fleet carrier, the Hiryu, during the Second battle of Wake Island.
Thanks for pulling me up on that, Hyperion. I'd forgotten the Hiryu. :eek:


To date they've lost five CVL/CVE type ships though.
Just in the recent operation near Java, they lost at least six cruisers. That's more cruisers lost in one battle than they lost OTL up through to September 1942.
This looks horrendous compared to OTL, but they did very well for themselves in OTL for almost the first year of conflict. The important question is: what did the IJN consider acceptable losses in the opening stages of the conflict, and seizing the SRA? I imagine they expected to suffer more than they did in OTL, but less than they have in TTL. Also, any such figures may have been revised up due to the stronger RN. After all, they've built ships to counter the increased RN/FAA presence...

I don't know what the acceptable loss figures were in OTL. I imagine someone with greater expertise in this area (such as yourself) may be better placed to answer the question.
 
Tyg

Oh agree with all of that but the UK will want to fight a war of machines if possible. I think OTL the UK deployed ~50% of the land force as armoured divs more proportionally then anyone else, to some extent the manpower problem was a choice to use kit rather than infantry to do things and that would not change.

Can't remember where the UK is with AA guns but the Indian pattern carrier - Dhar series is I think based on the same chassis as the Marmon Herringtons produced in SA. In North Africa OTL these were fitted with a variety of autocannon and light AT guns, 25-37mm, 2lb and 20mm Oerlikons. The Dhars were armoured and assembled in India so if any Oerlikons are available - demounted from warships for example India could produce a useful and quite cute looking armoured car. If Polstens are available (OTL, I think the design was finished in 41) they could maybe be produced in India if the tools were shipped. The chassis would be available.

One more thing generally about Malaya. The IJA supply situation was much worse than even I thought. They were expected to fight on a tooth to tail ratio of 1:1 so even if the food is sort of available unless its very very local to the troops the support end of the IJA is not really in a position to forward supplies unless the Thai’s are cooperative.

When do the IJA start attacking to get their breakfast? and when they find the soya links and Victory V fags do they complain to the Swiss about chemical warfare?
 
24th March

The Japanese begin an intense air and artillery bombardment of Bataan. Luzon-based Japanese Army and Navy aircraft begin a thorough bombardment of Corregidor, continuing through the end of March. Night air attacks are conducted for the first time.

In Malaya Blamey has decided that the Japanese pocket has been pushed far enough south. While allowing it to deepen will trap more troops, he is concerned that the Japanese might break out if his defence is stretched further. He informs Alexander that the planned envelopment and counterattack will begin tomorrow. Alexander agrees, and also issues instructions for the 17th Indian Division (currently under Slim in Burma) to attack across the Three Pagoda Pass and down the coast towards Malaya. This operation will expose the troops, however Alexander thinks that the Japanese will be busy with other things tomorrow.

25th March

The Japanese submarine HIJMS I-9 launches a Yokosuka E14Y1 Reconnaissance Seaplane to reconnoitre Kiska and Amchitka Islands.

The Allied counterattack and envelopment starts in northern Malaya, aided by every available RAF and RAAF aircraft. The plan is simple; the Japanese have pushed south to form a pocket, but that pocket is contained by the 8th Indian Division, supported by part of the 1st Armoured. The 'neck' of the pocket is now attacked by the Australian 7th and 9th Divisions, again supplemented by tanks. The Japanese have no weapon capable of countering the British infantry tanks, and the counterattack is supported by all available artillery. Attempts by the Japanese to counter with fresh troops is frustrated by the Allied air support and artillery. By the evening the Australians have nearly closed the neck of the pocket. Yamashita is in a quandary. His instinct is to pull as many as possible of his troops out of the trap, but his orders are to push south as hard as possible. Unable to manage these two conflicting ideas, he compromises - fatally, as it turns out. He orders the troops at the neck of the pocket to hold and counterattack while he tries to reinforce them, but the British armour keeps forcing them back with very heavy casualties. The main problem the British armour has is running out of machine gun ammunition, although a number of tanks are overrun when they break down. Meanwhile Slim is pushing a Brigade group south along the coast, hoping to catch the Japanese while they are preoccupied with the Australians, and Ghurka units are moving east through Three Pagoda pass.

26th March

At a meeting with the Australian Advisory War Council, General MacArthur gives his views on the situation in Southeast Asia and the southwest Pacific. He doubts that the Japanese are able to undertake an invasion of Australia, and believes that it would be a great blunder on their part if they attempted it. He suggests that the main danger is from isolated raids and attempts to secure air bases in the country and therefore, the first step is to make Australia secure. The War Council listen politely, but after the reports they have received from Blamey, Alexander and Somerville think MacArthur's ideas of Japanese expansion have been coloured by his experiences in the Phillipines.

General MacArthur receives the citation for his Medal of Honor at a formal dinner in Melbourne, Victoria. He tells the audience, "I have come as a soldier in a great crusade of personal liberty as opposed to perpetual slavery. My faith in our ultimate victory is invincible, and I bring you tonight the unbreakable spirit of the free man's military code in support of our joint cause." The Australians are non-military men in the audiance are impressed; the military and ex-military less so. MacArthur continues, that the medal is not "intended so much for me personally as it is a recognition of the indomitable courage of the gallant army which it was my honor to command

That night three B-17's based at Townsville, Queensland, evacuate Philippine President Manual Quezon and his family to Australia. This extraction is seen as politically necessary by the USA.

Admiral King relieves Admiral Starkas Chief of Naval Operations and thus becomes Commander in Chief U.S. Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations; Vice Admiral Horne (Vice Chief of Naval Operations) and Vice Admiral Willson (COMINCH Chief of Staff) are his principal assistants. There has been considerable controversy over King's appointment after the fiasco of the US coastal convoys and anti-submarine operations, and the administration intends to keep hiom on a short least for the moment.

Rear Admiral Wilcox commanding Task Force 39 with the battleship USS Washington (BB-56), the aircraft carrier USS Wasp, the heavy cruisers USS Wichita and Tuscaloosa and six destroyers, sails from Portland, Maine, for Gibralter. It is intended to include them in the Allied naval force starting to build up to support amphibious operations. Originally they had been tasked for the Pacific, but Roosevelt wants to have ships in place as part of the allied fleet. It is intended to replace the Washington with one of the older, slower battleships as soon as one can be sent to the Mediterranean

27th March

General Sir Thomas Blamey is named Commander-in-Chief of Australian Military Force, and given command of what is currently being called the central Malay barrier (including Australia). He will take command once he is satisfied as to the progress of his counterattack in Malaya. This is a blow to General MacArthur who had hopes he would have been given the job.

In Malaya, the two Australian divisions finally make contact. The bag is not completely closed; the terrain and jungle make it possible for small groups of Japanese to escape north, however to the surprise of the Allies few attempt to do so. Casualties have been heavy for the allies - some 6,000 men killed and wounded, but far heavier for the Japanese.

The U.S. Army’s War Plans Division Issues “Plan for Operations in Northwest Europe,” in which a tentative timetable for an invasion of France is offered. The plan calls for (1) a limited cross-Channel attack in the autumn of 1942 (Operation SLEDGEHAMMER) as an emergency measure if Soviet forces show signs of collapsing or (2) the main Anglo-American invasion (Operation ROUNDUP) in the spring of 1943 if SLEDGEHAMMER is not required. The build-up of U.S. forces and supplies in the U.K. for the major cross-Channel attack is coded Operation BOLERO. The Imperial Chiefs of Staff view SLEDGEHAMMER in particular as a fantasy, the shipping and landing craft simply are not available, and even an attack in 1943 seems far beyond allied capabilities, especially as hardly any US troops are yet in Europe.

The Imperial Staff in Tokyo commences an evaluation of the status of the war so far, in particular the need to modify some of the objectives and forces provided in view of some of the problems encountered, in particular the lack of oil fields captured. This debate will go on for some time.
 
A gold medal for Chris Hoy and an update, could this evening be any better? :)

Very good update but was especially struck by this:

The Imperial Staff in Tokyo commences an evaluation of the status of the war so far, in particular the need to modify some of the objectives and forces provided in view of some of the problems encountered, in particular the lack of oil fields captured. This debate will go on for some time.

That's like the captain of the Titanic calling a meeting about what to do after they hit the iceberg...
 
A gold medal for Chris Hoy and an update, could this evening be any better? :)

GAH! Spoilers!:mad:

Some of us have to live with tape delays.:(

And feel free to get jingoistic about that because you'd be unquestionably in the right: BBC beats the living hell out of NBC when it comes to covering the Olympics. I've spent the whole week pining for my old flat in Glasgow with the seven digital channels they activated specially for the Beijing games...
But congrats to Hoy, and also I think the Japanese men's gymnastics team have been reading this thread and were looking for some revenge.:D

Anyway, love the Malay stuff, it's my favorite part of TTL. Glad the Burma front's on the move as well. It'll be interesting to see how far the land war gets ITTL.

I asked before but it may have gotten buried: looks like there'll be an experienced Dutch force intact ITTL. Any chance a part of this force will find itself participating in Europe?
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
I asked before but it may have gotten buried: looks like there'll be an experienced Dutch force intact ITTL. Any chance a part of this force will find itself participating in Europe?

It's difficult to say. The part of the conscripted Europeans that are to old or otherwise not very useful will probably be de-mobilized to return to the economy though that also depends on the internal situation in the DEI. The question is if the Dutch government is prepared to make at least some concessions which might get them some much needed manpower. I personally think that might happen as the colonial government operates from a position of strength but that isn't certain. The KNIL could perhaps send a enlarged battalion to bolster the Dutch Prinses Irene Brigade in Europe though.
 
So, Yamashita's force is a more-or-less total loss, and for the moment at least MacArthur is out of the picture, things are looking good for the allies.
 
So, Yamashita's force is a more-or-less total loss, and for the moment at least MacArthur is out of the picture, things are looking good for the allies.

Yamashita's force is still going at the moment, but its about to get five divisions, one of them armoured, shoved down their throats...
I think Yamashita has the guts to pull as many as possible back once he realises, but their heavy equipment is lost
 
Yamashita's force is still going at the moment, but its about to get five divisions, one of them armoured, shoved down their throats...
Isn't that sort of the definition of a total loss? BTW, about what latitude are they at at the moment, 7°, 8°?
 

sharlin

Banned
This counter attacks brewing to be something quite spectacular.

A great update as always, good to see the dragon's finally come out of his cave! *puts the tazer away, un-needed. For now...*
 
This counter attacks brewing to be something quite spectacular.

A great update as always, good to see the dragon's finally come out of his cave! *puts the tazer away, un-needed. For now...*

It has potential...:)

And if a couple of divisions of pissed off (their ground state :)) Australians plus armour doesnt push them back, Bill Slim is busy getting behind them...:D
 
Depends, even if they lose all their heavy equipment once Yamashita realises how much of a bad situation he's in and with nothing to lose he could order the infantry to break and scatter to try and slip away north in small groups to reform later. Of course the Allies will be on their tails and trying to keep up the skeer but it depends on how fast they can move versus unencumbered infantry with the terrain.
 
Depends, even if they lose all their heavy equipment once Yamashita realises how much of a bad situation he's in and with nothing to lose he could order the infantry to break and scatter to try and slip away north in small groups to reform later. Of course the Allies will be on their tails and trying to keep up the skeer but it depends on how fast they can move versus unencumbered infantry with the terrain.

There's one little problem with that plan.
They've spent the last 3 months REALLY annoying the Thais....:eek:
 
A very good point. But from your earlier posting I was under the impression that the Thais couldn't expect much in the way of good stuff from the British even if they tried to switch sides, so if it's a choice between the Japanese who are the bastards that you've already sided with and might still be able to win (I doubt the Japanese are broadcasting their losses) versus the British who are the bastards that going to be looking to occupy you and take bits of your country then I might still lean slightly more towards the Japanese than the Allies if I can't get anything out of switching.
 
GAH! Spoilers!:mad:

Some of us have to live with tape delays.:(

And feel free to get jingoistic about that because you'd be unquestionably in the right: BBC beats the living hell out of NBC when it comes to covering the Olympics. I've spent the whole week pining for my old flat in Glasgow with the seven digital channels they activated specially for the Beijing games...

Would it be evil to mention they have 24 streams this time so if a sport is happening its being broadcast. ;) Without further spoilers you really need to watch the action from the velodrome tonight; dramatic is an understatement.

But congrats to Hoy, and also I think the Japanese men's gymnastics team have been reading this thread and were looking for some revenge.:D

Well they won't get to appeal the defeat the British are handing them in Malaya. :)

Anyway, love the Malay stuff, it's my favorite part of TTL. Glad the Burma front's on the move as well. It'll be interesting to see how far the land war gets ITTL.

It is amazing, and yet entirely credible, that wrapping up the NA campaign lets the British do so much better in SEA.
 
Depends, even if they lose all their heavy equipment once Yamashita realises how much of a bad situation he's in and with nothing to lose he could order the infantry to break and scatter to try and slip away north in small groups to reform later. Of course the Allies will be on their tails and trying to keep up the skeer but it depends on how fast they can move versus unencumbered infantry with the terrain.

Having read Fergal Keane's Road of Bones about the Japanese retreat from Impahl and Kohima recently, being allowed to break into small formations to escape with no food or medical supplies is as much of a death sentence in the Malay jungle as a banzai charge, just drawn out for a lot longer and a lot more painful.

Excellent update as always, looking forward to the next one tomorrow (please :D)
 
Having read Fergal Keane's Road of Bones about the Japanese retreat from Impahl and Kohima recently, being allowed to break into small formations to escape with no food or medical supplies is as much of a death sentence in the Malay jungle as a banzai charge, just drawn out for a lot longer and a lot more painful.

Excellent update as always, looking forward to the next one tomorrow (please :D)

Yeah they might be able to get away but its just postponing the inevitable. And if some half starved troops with no equipment do make it back to friendly territory it's not going to to do a lot for Thai morale...
 
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