The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
As a bizarre sidelight on the Russian character, when the Royal Sovereign was returned from Russia, the British teams that came on board found every gun on the ship still loaded, from the 15 inchers down to the 2 pdr pom-poms. And large stretches of the lower decks covered in human excrement.

usertron2020

From what I heard not only loaded but rusted in the barrels. Hadn't heard about the mess.:(

Steve
 
As a bizarre sidelight on the Russian character, when the Royal Sovereign was returned from Russia, the British teams that came on board found every gun on the ship still loaded, from the 15 inchers down to the 2 pdr pom-poms. And large stretches of the lower decks covered in human excrement.

Well this is a first. They say some people don't understand irony, but the Russians evidently, don't like like irony. At all.
 
Right it's been four days since the last update, time for another. You can't just drop Warspite into the mix and then leave people hanging Astro. :)



If you wanted the bombardment power then surely taking the turrets out and fitting in a monitor would economise on crew.
Talking of monitors it reminds me that in our timeline HMS Terror was based out east in Singapore at the start of the war but got called back to serve in the Mediterranean. With that area mostly wrapped up thanks to the Regia Marina being taken care of and it now being mainly smaller operations that could be taken care of by the older warships and HMS Erebus, makes you wonder what a couple of 15 inch guns could do to some of those Japanese invasion forces based near the coastlines. :D


IMHO At this time of the war it is not really worth the effort of building new monitors. The existing ships would suffice and the shipbuilding capacity is better used for more urgent hulls. :)
Well they already seemed to of felt that they could spare the capacity to build a couple in our timeline, but I guess it depends on the various trade-offs between using older freed up battleships with much larger crews and construction space and cost for monitors with much reduced crews and what else you could do with them. Well that and the handling characteristics, from what I can remember monitors could only do about half the speed of even the older battleships and sometimes had less than perfect handling.
 
Last edited:

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Off battleships and other maters.

As has been said the R-class ships other then Royal Oak, are by now in a sorry state, and due to deficiencies in their design are not suitable for refit or upgrading. Their use as convoy escorts has been butterflyed away by the removal of any German ships, that could threaten a convoy that can not be dealt with by its own escort or a covering cruiser. Worst case they are left to swing at anchor somewhere in Scotland with just a care and maintenance crew aboard. Best case the admiralty send them for scrapping, thus freeing up the crews and adding a lot of high quality steel to the economy.

Royal Sovereign was lent to the Russians in lue of them receiving one of the surrendered Italian ships. And given the changes ITTL, this will not be necessary now, so there will be no need or inclination to lend the Russians anything.

What is interesting to think off is Vanguard, will there be a concentrated effort to complete her sooner, is it even possible to do so?

As for other events in the Far East, once the battle for Java is over, and given that it’s a win for the British and their Dutch allies. It is a case of clearing out those Japanese forces in the area, and pushing them back, so that they can not bomb, first Singapore then later on, Rangoon. This will mean clearing them out of both Siam and FIC, as it is from bases there that the assaults were launched.

At the same time the Americans will be looking to Liberate the Philippines, and rescue the POW’s if they can. They will for reasons of national pride want to do as much of this as they can without direct allied involvement. It wouldn’t look good to the home audience if they were seen to rely on others to do the job for them. Not that they are in any position now, or for the foreseeable future to do this without assistance from the British and Australians, if only in the provision of base facilities to operate from. The big question is do the chose the long or the short route, which is Australia via all the islands in-between or Singapore Borneo, and then ether work their way up or head for the main prize Luzon?

We are now in a very different world to the one we know, and events now can and will take a very different course to the ones we are used to. In Europe might we see an allied landing in France in 1943, given the improvement in shipping and thus better supply situation? Could it be that the British and Americans end up shaking hands with their Russian allies in Poland not Germany? Might G Patton get his wish to be the one to take Berlin, or might he be diverted into Austria and Czechoslovakia?

So so much to think off as we wait for the dragon to get his act together.
 
The R's are pretty much useless in their Battleship roles and there are a lot of potential bombardment ships already around but do the hulls have potential use as depot ships or repairs ships...even bloody great crane ships??
 
What is interesting to think off is Vanguard, will there be a concentrated effort to complete her sooner, is it even possible to do so?

Why? The RN needs the crews for her mighty carrier fleet. You don't build a BB just because she's beautiful.

Ramp-Rat said:
At the same time the Americans will be looking to Liberate the Philippines, and rescue the POW’s if they can. They will for reasons of national pride want to do as much of this as they can without direct allied involvement. It wouldn’t look good to the home audience if they were seen to rely on others to do the job for them. Not that they are in any position now, or for the foreseeable future to do this without assistance from the British and Australians, if only in the provision of base facilities to operate from. The big question is do the chose the long or the short route, which is Australia via all the islands in-between or Singapore Borneo, and then ether work their way up or head for the main prize Luzon?

The other allies will be about as interested in getting involved in a liberation of the Philippines as the Americans would in taking FIC. And for all the reasons you stipulate (plus the Australians having a cow at the very idea) the Americans want to retake the Philippines entirely on their own. Sometimes I wonder if FDR was just playing with Nimitz and MacArthur as to which option he would approve (Formosa v. Luzon).:p 1944 was an election year, and while Roosevelt's victory was never in doubt, he wanted broad coattails.

Ramp-Rat said:
We are now in a very different world to the one we know, and events now can and will take a very different course to the ones we are used to. In Europe might we see an allied landing in France in 1943, given the improvement in shipping and thus better supply situation?(1) Could it be that the British and Americans end up shaking hands with their Russian allies in Poland not Germany? (2) Might G Patton get his wish to be the one to take Berlin, or might he be diverted into Austria and Czechoslovakia?(3)

Despite improved logistics, there is the little matter of the Heer's not having it's back broken yet at Kursk. In 1942 the Allies will still be fighting for Air Superiority. Without breaking the Luftwaffe, there is no going across the Channel in force. Without the USSR breaking the offensive power of the Heer in 1943 there is no breaking out of any established bridgeheads in France. With the Allies ITTL so tied up with the Japanese, and the Americans only just having begun to mobilize, the British Army alone just doesn't have the mojo to do more than what Winston OTL described as "nibbling away" on the Germans.

Depending on what Astrodragon (*yoo-hoo!*) decides to do, it'll have to be the Central Mediterranean where the Allies will challenge Hitler in 1942. Otherwise, they risk having him pull what he did at Kursk. Namely, pulling back and throwing everything he has against the British.:( He can't launch any grand offensives, but he certainly has the means in 1942 to stop the British cold.:( It all depends on how much he would sacrifice in Russia. A slight pull back at Leningrad? Less armor thrown at the Caucasus, and more at Stalingrad? Thinning the lines in the center?

In 1943? I fear a stalemate, until the Soviets can bleed the Germans more.

2) As the Normandy Campaign and the Ardennes showed, Hitler was always more than willing to sacrifice space in the East to send more forces to stabilize the West. It's not like it makes any difference to him whether the bullets that riddle his body come from a burp gun or a grease gun.:p

3) At this point in time, Drew Pearson notwithstanding, Patton is likely to emerge an Army Group commander, not an Army commander. So it's not going to be him doing any direct assaults on the city, IF the Supreme Allied Commander (whoever he might be) is willing to expend the 100,000 lives to be lost taking the city. OTL, had the troops been sent forward (assuming no other changes) it would have been Simpson's US 9th Army that would have had to do the deed. OTL, it was Hodges' US 1st Army that got the call for Czechoslovakia and Patton's US 3rd Army and Patch's US 7th Army that got sent to Bavaria and Austria.
 
Originally Posted by Ramp-Rat
What is interesting to think off is Vanguard, will there be a concentrated effort to complete her sooner, is it even possible to do so?

Why? The RN needs the crews for her mighty carrier fleet. You don't build a BB just because she's beautiful.

Well she might get built because shes fast with good range, perfect for escorting the carriers, I expect it's a toss up between the cost of Vanguard or refitting Hood and Repulse. Basically a similar reason as to why the Iowas were completed,as by the time they were ready they were not really needed in their orginal role, but excelled as fast carrier escorts.

I'd argue that HMS Renown was the most useful RN BB/BC through the war, the ablity to keep up with the carriers added a tactical flexablity that the rest of the RN big ships lacked, she certainly was worked very hard during the war.
 
Well she might get built because shes fast with good range, perfect for escorting the carriers, I expect it's a toss up between the cost of Vanguard or refitting Hood and Repulse. Basically a similar reason as to why the Iowas were completed,as by the time they were ready they were not really needed in their orginal role, but excelled as fast carrier escorts.

I'd argue that HMS Renown was the most useful RN BB/BC through the war, the ablity to keep up with the carriers added a tactical flexablity that the rest of the RN big ships lacked, she certainly was worked very hard during the war.
Vanguard has already been canceled if i remember the timeline right she was canceled early on in this time line.
 
Vanguard has already been canceled if i remember the timeline right she was canceled early on in this time line.

Quite right!
The RN has a surplus of BB and BC, the only place they could be used is in the Pacific, and they have some 7 at Singapore already.

Next update today. I'm just letting the tension build up a bit...:D:p
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Quite right!
The RN has a surplus of BB and BC, the only place they could be used is in the Pacific, and they have some 7 at Singapore already.

Next update today. I'm just letting the tension build up a bit...:D:p

A surplus of BB! Drools at prospect of Empire vs Japan battleline. Surigao Straits anyone?
 
First off I did not want the Monitors I wanted the Names.

Second. I think Usertron is overestimating the German capability. The army is essentially broken as a strategically offensive force in winter 41/42 and really only capable of limited offensive action.

The only way Blue is able to succeed is by stripping the rest of the eastern front of infantry, units are at 50% strength at best outside AGS area, anticipating conscript classes and taking workers from industry (and importing around 3m slaves to replace them) and being dependent on allied forces to cover the flanks. From Jan 43 (possibly earlier) AGC replacements are 1/3 Ost troops.

Even then the forces for Blue were entirely dependent on attacking the weakest soviet sector. And massing virtually the entire Luftwaffe strength in AGS sector. By way of example after the redeployment of forces for Uranus the soviets were still able to launch Operation Mars around Rzhev with about the same sized force as used in Uranus. Now whether the Red army ordered a retreat or screwed up an order in the initial phases of Blue is a good question but the fact is that there was little fighting by the Red army from the jump off point to the Volga, a point remarked on by the Germans at the time, Blue hit air.

And right now (see previous posts) Blue is not ordered we are in the period of Trappenjagd/Fridrikus - its up to Astro but I think Wally action in the Med will draw off Axis and minor allied forces, the troops not sent to NA will not compensate for these in numbers. In terms of fighting power maybe but they will be stretched so thin by a TTL Blue as to make no difference to the result.

The Germans are perfectly capable of mounting a strong defence (they beat off Mars after all) and absent the loss of 6th Army probably capable of resisting any soviet 1942 offensive at least at a strategic level but at an unacceptable manpower loss AND probably unacceptable tank loss.

Kursk as such does not affect German tank strength. The inventory in June 42 is around 5,800 - of which 1800 in the west (not NA) or transit/shop repair and 3981 on the eastern front. This rises to 7798 to August then drops back to 5600 in march 43(7700 by August 43). The German records show Zitadelle (5-16 July) as 252 afv, Kursk sector (july - august) 760 and eastern front (july- august) 1331.

The reason being that as long as the Germans possessed the battlefield - even for a few hours - minor damage was repairable, if pushed back it’s a satchel charge on the engine and a total write off. Any soviet offensive will destroy large numbers of German tanks even if its only a tactical success for a limited time. The German disaster was not Kursk but Kutuzov and Rumianstev launched on either flank later in July.

The Germans were not seriously contesting allied air superiority at any point from Mid 42 onwards. Luftwaffe Strength is June 42 -3700, Dec 42 3,400, June 43 - 4600, WAllied (Europe only), June 42 - 9,500, Dec 42 -12,600, June 43-17.700 red air force 2100, 3800, 5600 for the same periods.

I don’t think anyone would suggest that Wallies did not have air superiority if not air supremacy over any battlefield from mid 42 onwards (except Tunisia where the airfields were a swamp). The exception to that is the Reich. Interestingly the Luftwaffe plan for D-Day was to redeploy the Reich air defence force to France when the invasion occurred, it then got into range of allied Jabos and was destroyed largely on the ground on temporary airfields waiting for the fuel truck - which was burning on a road somewhere else.

The real limiting factor on Overlord is the availability of shipping and US ground forces the British/CW : German ratio is about equal it’s the US army that provides the superiority and that is not available until early 44.

Patton as AG commander - depends on whether he is seen hitting his own guys. ?He ranks Bradley at the start. But I don’t think he would have been a good one. I do think the Wallies would avoid a fight over Berlin on the other hand the Wallies may not have to fight over Berlin.

Astro - You mean Richelieu gets revenge for its earlier inconvenience?
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Sorry gentlemen I had forgotten that Vanguard had been cancelled, my bad. Though I will miss her, she was I think without doubt the best looking of all the big ships we Brits built. Not that that was the reason behind my inquiry, it was based on the fact that completing her would free up a slipway, allow one of the older ships to be taken out of service, or redeployed to an area she was better suited too, and provide a far better equipped ship for service in the Far East. That even with an acceleration in her completion, she still wouldn’t be finished in time to take an active part in the conflict, isn’t something that would have been obvious to the British at the time. They do not know just how precarious the Japanese supply position is, they have an idea, but that all it is for now and idea.

Usertron2020, sorry I wasn’t proposing that Britain invades Northern Europe in 42, that is, no matter how much the Americans push for it, a non starter. That doesn’t mean that an invasion in the Spring of 43 is not viable, depending on availability of shipping and landing craft, it is possible. One thing to remember is the beach defences in 43 are no where near as formidable as they were in 44. Nor is as others have pointed out the German army as strong as it would appear. It isn’t necessary for the Russians to break the army for it to have major problems in facing the Anglo-Americans, that is more of a bonus.

As for German airpower, again as others have stated, the allies will be able to achieve dominance over the battlefield and this can and will affect the air defence of the German homeland. Every plane deployed to the front is one less to defend the home airspace, which might make the Americans job a bit easier when the start their bombing campaign.

As for the British and the Americans in the Far East, both do have interests in each others areas. It is to Britain’s advantage if the Americans clear the Philippines, and it reduces the threat against the British’s and Dutch possessions out there. And the American will want FIC cleared as it is one of the supply routes to the Philippines, along with being potentially a supply route to Chiang and the Chinese.

Right that’s it for now, of to work, mores the pity.
 
Sorry gentlemen I had forgotten that Vanguard had been cancelled, my bad. Though I will miss her, she was I think without doubt the best looking of all the big ships we Brits built.
I Disagree i think HMS Tiger the best looking capital ship the British have built although Hood was also a real looker, Vanguard to me looked cluttered and although elegant like Hood and Tiger all that extra equipment that was thrown on her while built ruined her a bit.

and yay update today, if i can update today between work meetings then astrodragon can :p
 
Tiger was pretty but fragile, same for Hood. as built the QE's were quite good looking and well balanced. Vangard OK but to my British eyes looking a little too American, ala the North Carolina, South Dakota and New Jersey classes.:)
 
Sorry gentlemen I had forgotten that Vanguard had been cancelled, my bad. Though I will miss her, she was I think without doubt the best looking of all the big ships we Brits built.


Have you gone totally bonkers? Vanguard is so ugly, shells would be repulsed enough to fall into the water just to avoid hitting it! ;)

That being said, TTL the BB force will die even sooner. The KGVs will be just as worked and used, and without Vanguard there to take up the slack....
 

Hyperion

Banned
Quite right!
The RN has a surplus of BB and BC, the only place they could be used is in the Pacific, and they have some 7 at Singapore already.

Next update today. I'm just letting the tension build up a bit...:D:p

At some point would you be able to write up some sort of ORBAT and the number and type of ships the Japanese have lost in this current major naval battle, be they carriers, cruisers, or transports?
 
Have you gone totally bonkers? Vanguard is so ugly, shells would be repulsed enough to fall into the water just to avoid hitting it! ;)

That being said, TTL the BB force will die even sooner. The KGVs will be just as worked and used, and without Vanguard there to take up the slack....

The RN's own successes will drive the decline of the battleship; the proof that carriers can kill them is not going to be ignored though the RN's success may also mean that their BBs get a more dignified end than those of the RM or IJN.
 
The RN's own successes will drive the decline of the battleship; the proof that carriers can kill them is not going to be ignored though the RN's success may also mean that their BBs get a more dignified end than those of the RM or IJN.
Well they managed to ignore the evidence from our timeline, even the sinking of the largest of them all the Yamato, and kept a number of them around until the 50s plus completing HMS Vanguard. I think things would probably go pretty much as our timeline - scrap the completely knackered and obsolete ones after hostilities end and keep the remainder ticking over into the mid-50s but with no more after that.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top