The Whale has Wings

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Astrodragon

First the Langley, now the Houston.:) Thank you for providing them both with a second chance.:cool: I know the poor Houston will probably be lost eventually anyway, considering the odds facing her.:( After all, the USN in WWII lost 63% of its prewar heavy cruiser force, not counting the US East Coast Ferries Tuscaloosa and Augusta.

But just the thought of having HMS Exeter, an RN heavy cruiser, take the loss instead, shows a more even-handedness coming out of this thread, even when no one, including me, would have questioned it if even BOTH ships were lost, never mind one over the other.:(

Now, we get to watch the mighty HMS Warspite avenge her smaller brethren.:cool:

Would anyone agree with me that in combat service in IOTL's WWII Warspite was to battleships what the Enterprise was to aircraft carriers?:confused:
 
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Hyperion

Banned
Astrodragon

First the Langley, now the Houston.:) Thank you for providing them both with a second chance.:cool: I know the poor Houston will probably be lost eventually anyway, considering the odds facing her.:( After all, the USN in WWII lost 63% of its prewar heavy cruiser force (not counting the US East Coast Ferries Tuscaloosa and Augusta.

But just the thought of having HMS Exeter, an RN heavy cruiser, take the loss instead, shows a more even-handedness coming out of this thread, even when no one, including me, would have questioned it if even BOTH ships were lost, never mind one over the other.:(

Now, we get to watch the mighty HMS Warspite avenge her smaller brethren.:cool:

Would anyone agree with me that in combat service in IOTL's WWII Warspite was to battleships what the Enterprise was to aircraft carriers?:confused:

Hmmm. Personally, I've always fancied doing a TL with Prince of Wales at Coral Sea myself. Warspite isn't bad though.
 
Hmmm. Personally, I've always fancied doing a TL with Prince of Wales at Coral Sea myself. Warspite isn't bad though.

I mentioned her because I just can't think of any capital ships with more Battle Stars (no BSG jokes please!) than Warspite and Enterprise.
 
Looks like the Japanese are about to have something else go seriously sideways, given all the losses in the prior parts, and now have Warspite dropping some 15" greetings from long range- depending on what the Japanese commander does next & the geometry of the action, they're probably going to lose at least another cruiser, & then there isn't much left covering the invasion transports, is there? And then, there's that possibly pending carrier duel on the other side of the Pacific which could likely whittle their carrier force down a bit more when they needed all their decks back in the DEI yesterday.

Though the upside for the Japanese not getting the oilfields they needed here is that they'll have a lot fewer warships waiting in line at the pump when the pending gas crunch hits, though I'm not quite sure they'll see it that way.:D
 
Good to see the the Japanese are taking at least a few allied ships down with them.

Almost missed it at first too, I was expecting the font to be size 3 Times New Roman as the previous updates had been size, but it turned out to be in size 3 Verdana. Edit: Ah, I see Hyperion commented on it as well.
 
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Nice update.

Astrodragon, one thing I'm wondering, if you could, could you make the font for your writting similar to the older posts you've put up?

This last post and the the one seemed somewhat odd to look at with the font being so big.

Oh no please don't anymore of the small font and I'd need to see an optician! That or suffer migraines from the eye strain!!
 
Astrodragon, Exeter was one of my Grandfathers favourite ships, of all the cruisers he designed as a RCNC for the Royal Navy. He was always proud her and her loss in 1942 was to him hard but an inevitable consequence of war! Her loss here is quite appropiate and in keeping with your very skilful balancing of a great timeline. Thanks.:)
 
Fantastic update, and yipee the Grand Old Lady has arrived and already has her Range. This is not good for the Japanese cruisers, yes they can outrun her but her mere appearance will send shivers through the Japanese fleets as she is capable of sinking anything they have out there.

I personally would like to see the grand old lady rout the japanese and then tow the ruined Exeter to Christmas island where she can be patched up. In OTL Warspite had that done to her during the Italy invasion so fitting she returns the favour.
 
And lets not forget the losses to their transport fleet; their operational ability is being eroded rapidly. And with so many IJN light units being lost they are probably going to have to deploy the big carriers and the Yamato battleships simply because they are what's still available.

Garrison

I suspect not the carriers, at least much longer;):D. However if they can find the fuel for the big ships to operate so far south how well escorted will they be with the number of destroyers and cruisers being lost.

Steve
 
Garrison

I suspect not the carriers, at least much longer;):D. However if they can find the fuel for the big ships to operate so far south how well escorted will they be with the number of destroyers and cruisers being lost.

Steve

Well I didn't say how long they would be available. :) As to the battleships I suspect the answer is they will be lightly escorted even as they guzzle up limited supplies of fuel. it's a lousy plan but the alternative is Japanese garrisons basically left to fend for themselves with no supply. Maybe the ones in the Philippines could get by but the ones on Borneo are in real trouble. Of course it won't work for very long, if at all, as the Allies keep shipping Japanese merchant shipping.
 
Warspite! My favourite battleship! :D

me too :cool:;)

warspite.jpg


<advertising>The Grand Old Lady will be appearing in my ISOT thread in a few posts time</advertising>

anyway...brilliant TL Astrodragon, the benchmark by which others can be judged IMO
 
It is worth noting in the picture of Warspite bombarding the Normandy beaches that X turret is trained fore and aft as it was deemed beyond repair after the glider bomb hit off the Italian coast! Despite that, such was the ships charisma, prestige and propaganda value as a morale lifter, besides having a top notch gunnery team that she was patched up enougth to lend her 15" salvo's to the bombardment. By all acounts although reduced to 6 rifles only, Warspite more than earned her stripes off the beaches on D day and probably more inportantely in the first few days after the landing. In a fight between a Tiger tank and a 15" gunned battleship my money is on the ship! With a 15" shell close, is often good enougth!!
 
It appears the Java invasion is going to be a total write off for the Japanese - bunches of warships lost, all of the troops and their equipment gone, and more valuable merchant bottoms (transports and freighters) lost. With little to no oil flow from the DEI going to Japan they now have 6-8 months before the wheels stop turning everywhere in the Empire (not just ships/planes/military transport but production of key chemicals for which oil is the basis, industrial oil use etc). The southern PI may remain in American hands and the first amphibious landings may be at Wake or Guam rather than further south..where the Japanese have not reached - and of course regaining US territory has a political aspect.
 
The southern PI may remain in American hands (1) and the first amphibious landings may be at Wake (2) or Guam (3) rather than further south..(4) where the Japanese have not reached - and of course regaining US territory has a political aspect.(5)

1) Extremely doubtful.:( The Japanese will have a gun to Wainwright's head and the heads of every POW in Luzon. If Wainwright orders a general surrender, I don't see how the US forces in Mindanao can refuse. Also, questions of paucity of medical supplies, food, weapons, ammunition and troops are bedeviling the less defended southern islands.

2) Not as long as Nimitz is still alive. Wake is a strategic dead ender. Too small to hold against a determined invasion force, too remote from any other Pacific Islands to be supported against such invasion forces. Too small and remote to develop into a full fledged naval/air base for carrying the war to Japan. As long as the Japanese air forces of the IJN and IJA can bombard a retaken Wake, it would require a permanently on-station Fleet Train and carrier force to cover Wake from Japanese counter-strokes. It is worth far less than what it would cost to take and hold.

3) For all the reasons you don't want Wake, you want Guam, Saipan, Tinian, and all of the other Marianas. But you need to take the Marshalls and Solomons first, to cut off the bulging Japanese-controlled curve slicing into Allied LOCs between the Hawaiian Islands and Australia.

4) Logistics mandate at least a partial SW Pacific Campaign by the Americans. For the Solomons, if nothing else. They point southwest like a dagger towards the convoy routes to Australia and New Zealand.

5) Actually, FDR deferred to the military judgement of his admirals regarding the Pacific War. General Hap Arnold, CinC-USAAC, was able to impress Roosevelt with the need for American bases in Australia OTL as the only means to engage the Japanese head on with American land-based airpower. ITTL? That's a question for the OP. But all those extra tactical and strategic aircraft have to go somewhere. A deeper engagement in the Carolines perhaps? Even Rabaul? The only target that would seem completely ASB ITTL for the US as a strategic objective is the Gibraltar of the Pacific, Truk.

The only political aspect, other than Japan itself, would be the Philippines. And even that wasn't certain, as Nimitz was pushing for Formosa instead.:confused: In what was probably MacArthur's greatest contribution to WWII, he was the one to convince Roosevelt to go for the US Army's proposals for the Philippines. Issues of time (16 months sooner), terrain, a friendly local population, a large force of local guerrillas controlling much of the countryside, and the presence of large numbers of POWs helped to carry the day.
 

Hyperion

Banned
2) Not as long as Nimitz is still alive. Wake is a strategic dead ender. Too small to hold against a determined invasion force, too remote from any other Pacific Islands to be supported against such invasion forces. Too small and remote to develop into a full fledged naval/air base for carrying the war to Japan. As long as the Japanese air forces of the IJN and IJA can bombard a retaken Wake, it would require a permanently on-station Fleet Train and carrier force to cover Wake from Japanese counter-strokes. It is worth far less than what it would cost to take and hold.

Retaking Wake would be a waste of time, it's better to be cut off and isolated, might make a good target for Marine raiders or something though.

That being said, and this really doesn't apply to this timeline anymore, Wake would have been a good place early on to mount operations to the Marshalls at least. Beyond that it wouldn't serve much direct support purpose aside from a logistics hub and giving pilots and submarines some place closer than Midway to stop and take a piss while heading back home.


That and it would make a good shuttle field for aircraft. Today in RL, it isn't uncommon to see F-18s, C-17s, B-52s and the like in transit from the western Pacific to stateside occasionally stopping in at Wake. Setting up the island to act as a pitstop for B-17s and B-29s isn't necessarily a bad idea.

If Wake could hold to begin with.
 
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