The Whale has Wings

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"Mission to Indo-China" by Richard Harris Smith

A good lengthy excerpt and review is available on-line

Good book about the OSS involvement in Indo-China, which was much more extensive than I thought.
 
The 37mm in M2s tank fired canister in USMC service , whether it was normally supplied I don't know but google 'Leo Case Tenaru' to get an account.

Actually at the end of the war Pacific theatre divisions rated the 37mm as the must keep AT gun, much to the bemusement of anyone that had fought in europe.

Just a thought - would more fighting in poor terrain accelerate the development of the Burney gun.
 

Ramp-Rat

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So having had a blissful eight hours in the land of nod, its now back to events in the Far East. As others have already said, in 1942, Uncle Ho wasn’t in any position or the VM equipped to be of any use to the allies. He was at the time just one among a number of others calling for independence for FIC. If the allied forces come into the area overland, they will be fighting through areas that have little or no VM presence. Both because the VM just didn’t exist in large numbers at this time, or the area in question was populated by non Vietnamese. Which are in fact populated by peoples who have no love for the Vietnamese, and who would be very hostile to them. Just as in the other colonial possessions, FIC is not one nation, but is made up of various regions, who had prior to the French taking control often been at war with one and other,

As for Donavan’s Oh So Social dilatants, I for one can not see the Free French having much truck with them, or allowing them to play in their sand pit. So Mr Donavan, lets get this straight, what you want to do is give arms and equipment to communists and teach them how to fight an occupying force! NON. And without French and British cooperation, how are they going to do it, they can base there efforts in China, but even then they will need a degree of cooperation, and it just will not be there. This isn’t OTL, and events have moved in a different direction, all of the colonial powers are in a slightly better position, and far better able to dictate events in their area.


As in FIC so too in China, things here will not be as they were, and we are looking at a very different set up. I am no champion of Generalissimo Chiang; he was without doubt a double dealing, amoral, megalomaniac, who couldn’t be trusted as far as he could be thrown. And his KTM administration was corrupt, ineffectual, and oppressive, and thanks to his paranoia rivern with factional infighting. His habit, of staving his best generals, of men and equipment, to prevent them providing a meaningful challenge to his control, didn’t help maters ether.

That said at the time he was the only game in town, and was always going to be given the support of the Americans, and surprisingly the Soviets too. Stalin didn’t trust Mao, and had forbidden supplying the communists with arms or equipment. In addition to the major ideological differences between Mao and Stalin, Stalin didn’t want another leader to arise and challenge his leadership of international communism. He saw Mao as a threat, and was more than happy to see Chiang crush him, and thus for the fight against capitalism to be carried on by someone more subject to party discipline.

So with events now moving into a totally different realm, as a result of the failures of the Japanese to isolate China, and for want of a better word, Chiang’s plan, to hold on until the western powers intervened and then to let them do the heavy lifting, while building up the strength to defeat the communists, now coming to fruition. There is every chance we can see a very different post war world in China, ether a lot longer and more bloody civil war, a partial partition, with as has been said the south remaining nationalist while the north becomes communist, even a majority of the nation staying in nationalist hands with a small communist rump, left as a running sore.

The event that drove the nail into Chiang’s coffin, the sweeping advances by the Japanese in 1944/45 are not now likely to take place, the Japanese will have other far more to them important things to deal with. Events much closer to home that will force them to scale back their efforts in China, and concentrate on defending the homeland. Chiang too is going to be in a very different position, not as isolated as he was, better supplied and forced to conform far more with the wishes of his paymasters. Who will have a far bigger whip to weald over him than they did, and one that they will be far more willing to use. After all they are doing much better than they were IOTL, and Chiang isn’t seen as vital to their plans as he was, so they are freer to impose on him. He has to toe the line to a far greater extent than he did, after all, he wouldn’t want to find himself replaced by one of his rivals, and suffering a bout of lead poisoning, something he came very close to IOTL on a number of occasions.

The ripples on the water of world events that have been happening ever since the start of TRL and now getting bigger and bigger, and have become to a large extent waves. Things are now going to be very different, and the idea that there is an inevitability about the direction of the post war world, is a trap easily fallen into. Just because it happened IOTL, doesn’t mean it has to happen ITTL, so much has changed, and so much is going to change in the course of the next few years, that we wouldn’t recognize the post war world as it will form.
 

perfectgeneral

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well put RR

If a separate front was formed in south China, Chiang couldn't be in both places. He would be limited in his control. Do you think that the two generals (force x and force y) would rise in power? One in Yunnan/Burma one in Guangdong. Chiang couldn't be breathing down the neck of both could he? The French flagged marshalling area might prove a limitation for him too.
 
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Interesting update, and its beginning to look more and more as if the steam will go out of the Japanese offensive very soon. Added to which their propensity to reinforce in penny packets, will only add to their losses in the weeks ahead. Somerville is now in a position to begin to set the pace and tone of the conflict in his area, forcing the Japanese to react to his manoeuvres. While they with ever depleting resources, will not know which way to turn. In Malaya, Alex, is now set to drive the Japanese out of the country, and possibly to a more easily defendable line in Siam, thereby realising troops for other operations in the area.

Going back a bit, to the debate about the post war world, and the changes that might occur, and also how event might in the next few years’ progress.

POW’s in Japan, Astrodragon has not as yet told us what the final result is in the Philippines, whether as IOTL, the surrender of the forces in Corregidor and Bataan, also leads to the surrender of all the other American and Pilipino forces as per OTL. Or, whether the remaining forces, elect to carry on the fight for the Islands. If they should do so, then while the Japanese will overrun the majority of the Islands, there is a good chance that one or two of the most southerly islands might stay in American hands, and a major guerrilla force remains in the remainder of the nation. If this should come to pass, and given that the Japanese are losing shipping at an accelerated rate in comparison to OTL, I do not see large numbers of American POW’s being shipped to Japan.

As for closing down the campaign I Malaya and Burma and shipping the forces back to Europe, why? Both these areas are seen as vital, producing much needed strategic materials. Nor is Britain in anyway short of troops right now, in comparison to OTL she is doing a lot better. Without the losses suffered in North Africa, Greece, Crete, Malaya and Burma, I make it she is better of to the tune of 200,000 or more troops. While there will only be replacements for casualties and specialist troops sent out East. There are plenty of native troops in India who can bulk out the British forces in the Far East. Troops that the British would rather served out there than in Europe. And we haven’t as yet seen the tree African divisions which were razed and sent East, who should be on the way soon.

Right that’s it for now, eight and a half hours at work on late shift Saturday, four hours sleep and a sixteen and a half hour day to-day means I am having trouble staying awake, it well time for bed for the Rat.

Ramp-Rat

I agree on the developments in the on-going campaign. On US and Filipino prisoners I'm not so sure. A lot will be surrendered when Bataan goes and can't see any way of avoiding that. Also OTL the other forces elsewhere in the islands were placed under the command of Wainwright in Bataan. He was forced to order their surrender as well because the Japanese would only accept a surrender at Bataan if he ordered this.

TTL I think when MacArthur withdrew Astrodragon had Wainwright made commander of all forces again. Hence, unless there is a change of this, which would have to happen fairly quickly, its unlikely the southern garrisons wouldn't be forced to surrender as well. If they were able to split off then I agree that at least some of the other forces could fight on as, especially with the deepening shortage of transports the Japanese would have problems getting forces to attack them all.

Either way I fear the death toll may not change much and could be worse. According to Wiki ~60k Filipinos and 15k Americans surrendered at Bataan and their going to race captors who may be in an even worse mood given events elsewhere and are probably going to be even less likely to be able to feed everybody. Hence the death march could well be worse. Also, if fighting continues elsewhere in the islands the Japanese may want to get the POWs off the islands to avoid potential escapes and to use them as labourers somewhere.

Difficult to know what will happen as it depends on how events unroll.

In terms of allied forces in SEA the biggest argument for not sending substantial forces to Europe is where would they be used? Do the allies have the capacity yet to make major assaults that would require them? There might be enough amphibious activity for landings in some of the islands but would such actions require men from the east? Other than possibly a landing in Italy later in the year, there is no capacity for a major landing on the continental mainland before 43 at the earliest. Hence if the troops are shipped to the Med is there a use for them.

Similarly could they be used in situ? Transport capacity is even less here, at least for the British forces. However there are a number of places, such as liberating occupied parts of Borneo and New Guinea and probably other islands that might be practical, given how thinly spread the Japanese forces are. Or overland in Indo-China if the local commanders think the Japanese forces are reeling and can be pushed back fairly easily. Liberating Thailand and FIC would not only secure Malaya and Burma but also open up supply routes to China and possibly a return to the Philippines for the US.

Another factor is that while the Japanese are so close its doubtful the Australian government will want their men heading to Europe. Similarly with the Dutch colonial forces while Britain has to pay for Indian troops used out of theatre so may be reluctant to use more of them in the Med. [Not sure whether they had to pay for them used in Malaya as well, possibly so but may be able to alleviate that].

Steve
 

perfectgeneral

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Similarly could they be used in situ? Transport capacity is even less here, at least for the British forces. However there are a number of places, such as liberating occupied parts of Borneo and New Guinea and probably other islands that might be practical, given how thinly spread the Japanese forces are. Or overland in Indo-China if the local commanders think the Japanese forces are reeling and can be pushed back fairly easily. Liberating Thailand and FIC would not only secure Malaya and Burma but also open up supply routes to China and possibly a return to the Philippines for the US.

Steve
Using the deep water port at Fort Bayard/Zhanjiang by-passes all that and requires no landing craft at all. A Free French deputation could fly in to negotiate under a white flag. After the conduct of Japan in FIC (Vietnam) they may be pushing on an open door.
 
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perfectgeneral

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Gannt:

How about something recoilless that fires popcorn out the back? Or two speed burn rockets that jump clear before going to full power? I hate that you can't use a back blast weapon from enclosed cover, but the PIAT has too much kick for not enough range. Armbrust is still a good design, but a booster with delayed ignition could extend the range and the way the pistons jam makes it single use. Bad news if you need another shot.

A PIAT with a lighter kick and a slow start, fin stabilised rocket looks the best bet. Rip cord ignition attached to the PIAT? A longer range might stop it being the weapon of six VCs. Can't see the driver for this or any other advanced AT small arm. Poor terrain, but lighter tanks. Even the Boys AT rifle has some use here.

220px-PIAT.jpg

Shame you can't share the recoil between two of you*. Shoulder Gun was a better name for it.
220px-PIAT_Projectile_CMHM_Brantford.jpg

Rocket tube down the centre, ignited a few tens of metres after being fired? Muzzle velocity (and recoil) could be cut by a third and still have a greater range and terminal velocity. Easy as pulling a cracker. PIAT 2 or PIAT(R) 'Peter'. Poles might call it a Piot(r). Romanians might joke that rocks are being thrown at tanks now. (those that know the bible will realise that Peter=rock).

* a pivoted yoke with two shoulder pads would allow this or spreading the recoil onto one person's left and right shoulder (not as good) in individual use.
 
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Ramp-Rat

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Stevep, in regard to American POW’s I wasn’t inferring that Bataan wouldn’t surrender, that is a given, there is just no way that it can be reinforced or relived at this time. As for the rest of the American forces in the Philippines, this is far more interesting, as events elsewhere mean that there could be a very different mindset among some of the commanders. The felling that the Japanese were all powerful and unstoppable will not prevail. So even if Wainwright gives his order, there might be sufficient officers to argue that as the order was coerced, it is in and of its self illegitimate, and that they are not bound to obey it. It would only take a few to do this, and there then might be sufficient time for outside authorities to intervene and appoint a different commander with instructions to carry on the fight.

Transporting the captured Americans out of the Philippines is going to be an enormous problem, due to the lack of transports, and the ability of the British to intervene. What shipping is available will be used to try to supply the Japanese forces in Malaya and Siam, along with the Philippines, and return with valuable strategic materials.

As for the cost of the Indian troops, that wasn’t the worry, Britain could in effect print the money used to pay for them, it controlled the Indian economy. Then real reason was after experience in the First World War, the powers that be, didn’t want Indian troops in a position to have sex with white women, even if they were only Italian. ‘ Good God old boy, once the buggers get a taste for white women, what’s to stop them form thinking they can do the same in India. No best keep them out East, that way they will only be shagging native women, and they don’t count.” We are talking about very different times, you only have to look at the problems the American forces encountered in Britain with “Negro” relations with British girls, who didn’t know they weren’t to go with blacks.

Right off to work now, another happy wet afternoon/evening playing with planes.
 
Given the weather here, I trust these are seaplanes? :p

Considering I work next door to an small airfield I'm surprised we haven't see skis attached to the underside of some of the planes taking off from round here.

Astro quick question, what is the status of the carriers being built at the moment as well as the state of the local home fleet defences down the south and east coast considering theres little to no threat navy up this way anymore (I'm in Kent and i know somewhat about the local RAF and Navy forces in WW2).
 
Considering I work next door to an small airfield I'm surprised we haven't see skis attached to the underside of some of the planes taking off from round here.

Astro quick question, what is the status of the carriers being built at the moment as well as the state of the local home fleet defences down the south and east coast considering theres little to no threat navy up this way anymore (I'm in Kent and i know somewhat about the local RAF and Navy forces in WW2).

Hmm..the coastal situation isnt dissimilar from OTL, but the KM small ships will be taking heavier casualties due to the earlier introduction of the Beaufighter as a gunship. No huge changes, except they dont need to keep any heavy ships available any more (Home Fleet is smaller, and mainly ships workng up or in semi-reserve like the R-class BB). Probably using some of the obsolescent cruisers as support.
 
Perfect,

Nah I'll just stick with a thing demo'd to the director of Artillery in October 42 and ordered developed for issue in 43 but not in even production till late 44.

The reason for the delay is partly Burney fiddling but also one of the main requirements - bunker busting on the Atlantic Wall - had a better solution, the AVRE. At the moment the UK experience is going to be much more influenced by light infantry type environments (small scale amphib assault, jungle & mountain) which might lead to a higher priority.

Right now PIAT is at best on trial and at worst not being considered. Most UK experience has been with Italian or Japanese AFV and while the AT gun family is fairly set I think there will not be the pressure to introduce a new infantry AT weapon as per OTL.

Also (can't remember without checking back) were any LG40 captured on Crete which may have implications.

Just a thought pending an update.
 

perfectgeneral

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Millis Jefferis

A general staff major of engineers responsible for the PIAT as commander of 'Winston Churchill's toyshop':
In 1940, Jefferis was sent to Norway, he returned to give a personal account of his activities to Prime Minister Winston Churchill who used his report to brief the War Cabinet:

The Prime Minister gave the War Cabinet an account of the report which had been made personally to him by Major Jefferis. Major Jefferis had been sent out to Andalsnea with instructions to blow up the Western railway in Central Norway. He had accordingly gone down the railway line and joined Brigadier Morgan’s Brigade; but the Norwegians had categorically refused to allow him to carry out any demolitions. He had been present when Morgan’s Brigade had been engaged by the enemy.

The Germans had attacked with artillery, tanks and armoured cars, which our troops had been without. Far more destructive of morale, however, had been the low-flying attacks with bombs and machine guns. Although the casualties had not been so great as from shell fire, the moral effect of seeing the aircraft coming, of being unable to take cover, of being able to observe the bomb dropping , and of the terrific explosion, had been overwhelming. Jefferis had eventually found himself with the Germans behind him.

Picking up a sergeant and two privates, he had succeeded in making his way back to Andalsnes; and on the way he had managed to blow up the girders of two bridges on the German side. He estimated that it would take some three weeks to repair these. At Andalsenes the conditions of air attack had been such as to make it quite impossible to walk down to the jetty during daylight hours. He had spent a day in a sloop in the harbour at which thirty bombs hand been aimed. None had hit, but the immunity of a ship under such conditions could only be, in Major Jetteris’s opinion, a matter of time, and he calculated that its life would probably not be more than three days.

The general conclusion which he (the Prime Minister) drew from Major Jefferis’s account was that it was quite impossible for land forces to withstand complete air superiority of the kind which the Germans had enjoyed in Norway. This made it all the more imperative to the success of our operations at Narvik that we should establish air bases in that area, not only for fighters, but also for bombers.
So the need for CAP is well understood and there are early hints at the need for an effective personal AT weapon. Pretty slow coming up with the PIAT then. At the same time the RN had Neville Shute at the DoMWD doing similar quirky weapons development. Had methodical industrial scale research been attempted, these two enterprises might have been just parts of a much larger research establishment. Something that would have seen a much earlier Hedgehog use of the spigot mortar. Assuming of course, that conversation in the canteen and visits to each other's labs was encouraged. The limited areas of expertise seem to have focused solutions in the 'Hammer sees every problem as a nail' sense. Shute was working with rockets, Jefferis with the PIAT and shaped charges.
 
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Stevep, in regard to American POW’s I wasn’t inferring that Bataan wouldn’t surrender, that is a given, there is just no way that it can be reinforced or relived at this time. As for the rest of the American forces in the Philippines, this is far more interesting, as events elsewhere mean that there could be a very different mindset among some of the commanders. The felling that the Japanese were all powerful and unstoppable will not prevail. So even if Wainwright gives his order, there might be sufficient officers to argue that as the order was coerced, it is in and of its self illegitimate, and that they are not bound to obey it. It would only take a few to do this, and there then might be sufficient time for outside authorities to intervene and appoint a different commander with instructions to carry on the fight.

Its a possibility and could make things even more awkward for the Japanese if a number of the southern outposts fight on. Also more awkward for the allies as there's going to be pressure to relieve or at least supply some of them and even if the Japanese are shortly to lose most of their carriers that's going to be difficult and costly.


Transporting the captured Americans out of the Philippines is going to be an enormous problem, due to the lack of transports, and the ability of the British to intervene. What shipping is available will be used to try to supply the Japanese forces in Malaya and Siam, along with the Philippines, and return with valuable strategic materials.

Possibly, in which case they might be disposed on in situ.:( However the pressure from allied forces is probably fairly light at the moment as what allied forces are available are mainly involved in defending the current position in the DEI and seeking to attack the Japanese forces trying to invade. Also, while the Philippines were geographically important I don't think they produced much of strategic value to the Japanese so there is probably cargo space on ships supplying Japanese forces on the islands to squeeze POWs in for the return trip.

As for the cost of the Indian troops, that wasn’t the worry, Britain could in effect print the money used to pay for them, it controlled the Indian economy. Then real reason was after experience in the First World War, the powers that be, didn’t want Indian troops in a position to have sex with white women, even if they were only Italian. ‘ Good God old boy, once the buggers get a taste for white women, what’s to stop them form thinking they can do the same in India. No best keep them out East, that way they will only be shagging native women, and they don’t count.” We are talking about very different times, you only have to look at the problems the American forces encountered in Britain with “Negro” relations with British girls, who didn’t know they weren’t to go with blacks.

Right off to work now, another happy wet afternoon/evening playing with planes.

From what I've read you're wrong unfortunately. According to 'The British Empire and the Second World War, by Ashley Jackson 1-85285-417-0' Britain was paying India, and the other colonies for goods supplied. Admittedly a lot of this was on very generous terms, with little/no interest on debts and many such debts were later cancelled. More to the point, in the case of India Britain had to pay for Indian army forces deployed outside India. [May have been outside authority of the Indian government as I know in earlier times it had been in charge of areas such as the Persian Gulf and possibly still includes Burma. It wasn't very clear and was a library book from Peterborough so only have some memories and notes].

Agree the race factor would also have been an issue but then in both world wars Britain used India forces extensively and I think they only saw limited use on the western front in WWI because of problems with the climate plus the fact the Ottomans became an enemy meant there were nearer theatres to use them.

Steve
 
As for closing down the campaign I Malaya and Burma and shipping the forces back to Europe, why? Both these areas are seen as vital, producing much needed strategic materials. Nor is Britain in anyway short of troops right now, in comparison to OTL she is doing a lot better. Without the losses suffered in North Africa, Greece, Crete, Malaya and Burma, I make it she is better of to the tune of 200,000 or more troops. While there will only be replacements for casualties and specialist troops sent out East. There are plenty of native troops in India who can bulk out the British forces in the Far East. Troops that the British would rather served out there than in Europe. And we haven’t as yet seen the tree African divisions which were razed and sent East, who should be on the way soon.

Right that’s it for now, eight and a half hours at work on late shift Saturday, four hours sleep and a sixteen and a half hour day to-day means I am having trouble staying awake, it well time for bed for the Rat.
Because by then malaya and burma, and at least the important parts of the dei are secured and no longer in danger. And, by then theres going to be need for more troops in europe.

Sure, make a token effort in indochina, mostly gun running, but once malay and the dei are safe, the pacific theatre drops massively in importance in british eyes. If the us insists, the can supply the troops.
 
Because by then malaya and burma, and at least the important parts of the dei are secured and no longer in danger. And, by then theres going to be need for more troops in europe.

Sure, make a token effort in indochina, mostly gun running, but once malay and the dei are safe, the pacific theatre drops massively in importance in british eyes. If the us insists, the can supply the troops.

Agreed with all this. Other than the OSS, nobody in the US will give a damn about FIC. The US' only concern will be keeping Chaing in the war. Other than that, the USA's entire concern regarding Japan will be the Pacific War. And payback.:mad:
 
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