The Whale has Wings

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sharlin

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Great update and well worth the wait and i'd say that the Colossus class ships a gonner, three torpedo hits and a good few bomb hits would kill almost any carrier in the world at the time and with her engine spaces flooding she'll loose power and with that her pumps and more.
 
Great update and well worth the wait and i'd say that the Colossus class ships a gonner, three torpedo hits and a good few bomb hits would kill almost any carrier in the world at the time and with her engine spaces flooding she'll loose power and with that her pumps and more.


A sad loss and by the time they get back to their surviving flight deck the Japanese pilots will doubtless be claiming to have sunk half the Royal Navy.:rolleyes:
 
Turns out 2,4d, the basis of agent orange was developed during the war in britain, offered for comercial sale in 46 and sold in a major way starting in 48. This kills dicots, leaving grasses ,(grains) alone.

Interestingly, agent blue was discovered quite a bit before, and it works on rice and other grains. Its a simpler arsenical compound.

This is an information post. I am NOT advocating the use of tbese compounds.

Dathi

Ouch! Agent blue could be very nasty if it comes to a blockade of Japan. Only saving graces are since its a general poison, involving arsenic then that might deter its use. Or possibly the commanders don't know about it or no one is willing to break the 1st use taboo.

Steve
 
Dathi

Ouch! Agent blue could be very nasty if it comes to a blockade of Japan. Only saving graces are since its a general poison, involving arsenic then that might deter its use. Or possibly the commanders don't know about it or no one is willing to break the 1st use taboo.

Steve

Arsenic is arsenic. As an element, it never breaks down, so the wasting of the land is more permanent than I'd like to think.

Astrodragon, can we just have an absolute statement from you regarding TTL's moratorium on bio and chemical WMD's? And a moratorium of all this poisonous chit-chat. It's scaring me.:(
 
Arsenic is arsenic. As an element, it never breaks down, so the wasting of the land is more permanent than I'd like to think.

Astrodragon, can we just have an absolute statement from you regarding TTL's moratorium on bio and chemical WMD's? And a moratorium of all this poisonous chit-chat. It's scaring me.:(

Good idea.
 
Arsenic is arsenic. As an element, it never breaks down, so the wasting of the land is more permanent than I'd like to think.
(
But toxicity across arsenic-containing compounds varies a lot, so depending on how the things break down the results vary. Huge quantities of organoarsenate herbicide have been used commerically across the US in the last few decades, and it was only finally banned a couple of years ago, much to the dismay of the golf course industry and lawncare obsessives. I think US cotton growers are still allowed to spray with one of these chemicals (in industrial quantities, obviously). And the US isn't a wasteland (yet). So it wouldn't necessarily be the end of everything, forever.

But I really don't think agro-chemical warfare was looked at much in WW2 - if you want to starve an urbanized country, probably easier to do it by chopping up the inputs (fertilizer, tractors, fuel, machinery) and distribution (rails, bridges, depots). Which is pretty much what you would do anyhow if you wanted to cripple war production industry, so it's a free 'benefit' of a strategic air campaign.
 
You seem to have made a mistake: the Zuiho (Takasaki) was sunk in the battle of the South China Sea.


No, its a different ship.
If you read back to before the war, one of the IJN responses was to arrange two additional light carrier conversions, she is one of them, based on a different ship.
 

perfectgeneral

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The Dutch army in the DEI recieve their first shipments of the US 'Stuart' tank. These had originally been ordered by France, but after the actions in North Africa had shown they were really too light for use against German tanks, had been passed on to the Dutch - it was felt that it would be a very useful vehicle against the much lighter and poorly-protected Japanese tanks. The Dutch forces have been eagerly looking forward to their first modern tanks.
(18th November)
The Japanese now had only 6,000 men ashore on Java, with only limited equipment and ammunition.
And out come the Stuarts. :D
Three machine guns per high speed (18mph off-road) pillbox. I'd skimp on the main gun ammo for extra mg boxes. Say 54 rounds for the 37mm (-120) and 10,000 rounds for the .30-06 Brownings (+2,500)? These are Stuart I that had the turret with an extra MG, yes? Or diesel Stuart II. Depends what the original French order was for, but I doubt they are diesels (shame the extra range would be handy). Do these have the side sponsons? Five MGs?

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/tanks/stuart/honey.htm

Are these the French tanks that are 'slightly modified'? 57mm (six pounder) main gun? Canister round available? Rear external fuel tank? It should be interesting to find out exactly what the 6,000 Japanese encounter on Java.
 
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Let's not forget Yamashita's offensive. That should be running out of steam courtesy of weary troops and shortage supplies very soon if it hasn't already and is about to face a counter-offensive that will cut off the spearheads and roll up the rest of his forces barring a miracle.
We're potentially looking at the end of Japanese offensive operations in the Southern Resource Area. it will just be a bunch of isolated garrisons at the end of a very long supply line; assuming the RN, RAN, and RAF don't cut it altogether.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Let's not forget Yamashita's offensive. That should be running out of steam courtesy of weary troops and shortage supplies very soon if it hasn't already and is about to face a counter-offensive that will cut off the spearheads and roll up the rest of his forces barring a miracle.
We're potentially looking at the end of Japanese offensive operations in the Southern Resource Area. it will just be a bunch of isolated garrisons at the end of a very long supply line; assuming the RN, RAN, and RAF don't cut it altogether.

Let's not forget the RNLN and the MLV ;)
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Interesting update, and its beginning to look more and more as if the steam will go out of the Japanese offensive very soon. Added to which their propensity to reinforce in penny packets, will only add to their losses in the weeks ahead. Somerville is now in a position to begin to set the pace and tone of the conflict in his area, forcing the Japanese to react to his manoeuvres. While they with ever depleting resources, will not know which way to turn. In Malaya, Alex, is now set to drive the Japanese out of the country, and possibly to a more easily defendable line in Siam, thereby realising troops for other operations in the area.

Going back a bit, to the debate about the post war world, and the changes that might occur, and also how event might in the next few years’ progress.

POW’s in Japan, Astrodragon has not as yet told us what the final result is in the Philippines, whether as IOTL, the surrender of the forces in Corregidor and Bataan, also leads to the surrender of all the other American and Pilipino forces as per OTL. Or, whether the remaining forces, elect to carry on the fight for the Islands. If they should do so, then while the Japanese will overrun the majority of the Islands, there is a good chance that one or two of the most southerly islands might stay in American hands, and a major guerrilla force remains in the remainder of the nation. If this should come to pass, and given that the Japanese are losing shipping at an accelerated rate in comparison to OTL, I do not see large numbers of American POW’s being shipped to Japan.

As for closing down the campaign I Malaya and Burma and shipping the forces back to Europe, why? Both these areas are seen as vital, producing much needed strategic materials. Nor is Britain in anyway short of troops right now, in comparison to OTL she is doing a lot better. Without the losses suffered in North Africa, Greece, Crete, Malaya and Burma, I make it she is better of to the tune of 200,000 or more troops. While there will only be replacements for casualties and specialist troops sent out East. There are plenty of native troops in India who can bulk out the British forces in the Far East. Troops that the British would rather served out there than in Europe. And we haven’t as yet seen the tree African divisions which were razed and sent East, who should be on the way soon.

Right that’s it for now, eight and a half hours at work on late shift Saturday, four hours sleep and a sixteen and a half hour day to-day means I am having trouble staying awake, it well time for bed for the Rat.
 
It remains my opinion that if the Allies approach FIC by any route, be it north through Burma or south via liberating Thailand, they are going to perforce enter into cooperative relations with the Viet Minh, regardless of Free French protests. The VM are the only effective resistance forces on the ground, they will be too useful an asset for British or American commanders to consider foregoing; if at French insistence or out of the strong anti-Communist feelings of British or Americans the Allies rebuff the VM, they will find the task of liberating Indochina on their terms alone much more difficult, because they'd not only not have the benefit of VM assistance, they'd be simultaneously fighting both the Japanese and Ho Chi Minh!:eek: Perhaps by the time such invasions are at hand, Allied strength will be such that they can win against both handily enough, but it seems quite likely to me that realistic war planners will seek to minimize their immediate problems and maximize advantages and that the Viet Minh will be seen as an asset to be cultivated during the war, with any consequences deferred until after it.

Possibly if FIC is approached a third way, by seaborne invasion, there might be no prior contact with the VM and the invasion planned and for the most part prosecuted as though the VM did not exist. However that would be an awfully sloppy war plan I'd think, again realism would suggest some sort of arrangement would be worked out with Ho in advance of such a bold and risky operation.

If the Allied armies approach by land, there is no question there would be contact and some sort of mutual assessment would happen.

The main way then for the war to be fought to a conclusion without there having been cooperative relations established with the Viet Minh would be if FIC were bypassed completely. If the matter of coming to terms with Ho would prove to be such a political hot potato with the Free French that it threatens the alliance, that might be the solution to the problem.

Otherwise, if liberation of FIC is in the cards, the Viet Minh are going to get a hearing and probably a deal of some sort. They are too powerful and alternative local or French allies too weak for it to be otherwise.
...

I think it'll depend upon how quickly FIC is attacked. In 1942 the Viet Minh have pretty much no weapons and are of little to no effect. If the attack takes place in 1943 or 1944 after they've been well supplied by the US and UK then yes they will be important. But if it happens sooner then they'll be ignored as irrelevent by the British at least.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
I was thinking more 1942 and a landing in the north of FIC to open up supply ports (Haiphong). This might be where the lessons of Dieppe are learnt or they might land along the neighbouring beaches and besiege the ports from outside. I think a long (time and distance) land offensive is unlikely given a strong command of the sea.

Why Haiphong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_Railway

Similarly a drive up the Kra peninsula might be coordinated with a landing at Chumphon/Surat Thani with a view to holding there supplied by land and sea.

Another approach to 'supporting' China might be to carve out a little empire for a chosen Warloard by landing at Zhanjiang*, rolling up the coast towards Yangjiang and 'liberating' Guangdong province (including Hong Kong). This would be very costly in manpower, so would rely on arming and training the indigenous population in a way that would be anathema to most colonial generals. Wei "Hundred Victories Wei" Lihuang at the head of Y Force, might be just the man for the job, or Sun 'Rommel of the east' Li-Jen, at the head of X Force, with General Stillwell and a large group of military training advisers. The Free French might offer a garrison for the port and region while the Chinese forces build from this initial bridgehead. A drive north east towards Yunnan would be harder to support.

*=A post-war, post-revolution deep water naval port. As yet it is cut off from any railway service and so could be reinforced by sea quicker than by land. 99 year lease to France (Fort-Bayard). Although logistics out of the immediate region would be difficult they would hardly be as bad as those out of Burma.
The French retained control of the region until 1943, when the Japanese occupied the area during World War II.
click to enlarge
The leased territory was situated in Guangdong Province (Kwangtung Province) on the east side of the Leizhou Peninsula, north of Hainan, around a bay then called Kwang-Chou-Wan (Kwangchow Bay), now called the Port of Zhanjiang. The bay forms the estuary of the Maxie River (Maxie He). The Maxie is navigable as far as 19 kilometres (12 mi) inland even by large warships. The territory ceded to France included the islands lying in the bay, which enclosed an area 29 km long by 10 km wide and a minimum water depth of 10 metres. The islands were recognized at the time as an admirable natural defense. The limits of the concession inland were fixed in November 1899; on the left bank of the Maxie, France gained from Gaozhou prefecture (Kow Chow Fu) a strip of territory 18 km by 10 km, and on the right bank a strip 24 km by 18 km from Leizhou prefecture (Lei Chow Fu).[2] The total land area of the colony was 1,300 square kilometres (500 sq mi).[3] The town of Zhanjiang was named Fort Bayard by the French and developed as a port.
After the fall of Paris to Nazi Germany in 1940, the Republic of China recognised the London-exiled Free French government as Guangzhouwan's sovereign rulers and established diplomatic relations with them; from June 1940 until February 1943, the colony remained under the administration of Free France.[4] This is an interesting fact bearing in mind that Guangzhouwan had been governed from French-Indochina, and that the authorities there were loyal to the Vichy regime. The explanation may lie in the fact that Guangzhouwan was totally surrounded by Free China and that the Japanese did not occupy that part of the China coast.
Opposed landing? Used pre-war for smuggling transport aircraft, so we know it has an airfield. Could a Free French deputation backed by battleships off shore take over the administration bloodlessly?

This could see China divided at the Nanling mountains into tropical, nationalist South China and temperate, communist North China. Messy.
 
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...The OSS gave what support they could to Ho, and his two OSS liaison officers thought the world of him. They wanted Ho to get every weapon the US could send to him. But after the war, the French were able to play the "Allied" card to the hilt, and force Truman (who didn;t have the investment FDR did in Ho) to abandon support of the VM. The two friendly OSS officers? Assassinated!:mad:

I think it'll depend upon how quickly FIC is attacked. In 1942 the Viet Minh have pretty much no weapons and are of little to no effect. If the attack takes place in 1943 or 1944 after they've been well supplied by the US and UK then yes they will be important. But if it happens sooner then they'll be ignored as irrelevent by the British at least.

ModernKiwi, it seems usertron2020 knows a lot more than I do about the details of how things went in Indochina OTL, I'd have to ask him for his sources on the exact way Ho's resistance evolved. But I'd think if the Allies are in any position to attack FIC territory, with the Japanese in such a weak position compared to OTL, the VM would have had more success even earlier in getting weapons from their enemies. One way or another, any forces on the ground in Indochina from any side will be dealing with them.
 
A guerilla army with a few stolen weapons is not comparable with one heavily supplied by the US (and/or the UK). One need only look at how much more effective Tito's partisans were once they had supplies.

In 1942 the US is going to be scrambling to supply itself, let alone others. So if there is an attack on FIC, it's going to be British/Commonwealth dominated and the British aren't going to support an independence movement - and certainly not one in an environment where the Free French have more sway.

If it takes place in 1943 or 1944 then there would be a much heavier US involvement and support for the VM and then I agree that they are going to be important.
 
(18th November)

Three machine guns per high speed (18mph off-road) pillbox. I'd skimp on the main gun ammo for extra mg boxes. Say 54 rounds for the 37mm (-120) and 10,000 rounds for the .30-06 Brownings (+2,500)? These are Stuart I that had the turret with an extra MG, yes? Or diesel Stuart II. Depends what the original French order was for, but I doubt they are diesels (shame the extra range would be handy). Do these have the side sponsons? Five MGs?

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/tanks/stuart/honey.htm

Are these the French tanks that are 'slightly modified'? 57mm (six pounder) main gun? Canister round available? Rear external fuel tank? It should be interesting to find out exactly what the 6,000 Japanese encounter on Java.

One thing about the 37mm the M3 carried. When that type was used as a towed at gun, it had a canister shot available to be used. If they decided to carry a few rounds of that and more he and dumped some of the AT rounds that would make it interesting for a Banzai charge.
 
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