The Whale has Wings

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Correct. I was saying that dropping epidemic disease on japan to add to the misery would be easyish to do. IF you had weaponized epidemic disease.

This would be a HORRIBLE thing to do, and im glad the allies dont have the germs, because otherwise theyd be tempted.

Japans air defenses by that point would be shredded.

Of course, the germs would escape, as someone else pointed out. So even if the allies had vaccinations for the mutant virus, thered be millions of civilian deaths in eg china.

So, yes it would be EVIL. And STUPID.

Unfortunately, that doesnt necessarily stop governments. Sigh./

I assume you are talking about Smallpox because the British most assuredly did have the Anthrax. As to the spores reachign China it doesn't seem likely; they never escaped the island they were tested on, though it was quarantined for 40 years.
I don't think the Allies using chemical/biological weapons on Japan is likely but it ultimately depends on what a desperate and blockaded Japan might try by way of making the Allies come to acceptable terms. Again I doubt they could do anything that would succeed but the mere attempt to use their own bio weapons program might tip the balance.
 
The Japanese could try attacking America with bio-weapons by using the ballon-based delivery system that they used for bombs IOTL...
 
The Japanese could try attacking America with bio-weapons by using the ballon-based delivery system that they used for bombs IOTL...

That's one of the options I was thinking of. Won't work but it would anger the Allies. The Japanese might even try to rationalize it to themselves. If there's a long period of blockade and bombing major disease outbreaks in Japan are quite likely; they could claim it's the result of allied bio weapons and they are just retaliating.

Of course it's all academic as we are still stuck in Malaya and Java. Given the weather in the UK I fear Astrodragon may be submerged somewhere.:(
 
That's one of the options I was thinking of. Won't work but it would anger the Allies. The Japanese might even try to rationalize it to themselves. If there's a long period of blockade and bombing major disease outbreaks in Japan are quite likely; they could claim it's the result of allied bio weapons and they are just retaliating.

Of course it's all academic as we are still stuck in Malaya and Java. Given the weather in the UK I fear Astrodragon may be submerged somewhere.:(

Astro has probably tethered himself to the ducks that magically appear in this country when rain happens, it'll be fine.
 
Correct. I was saying that dropping epidemic disease on japan to add to the misery would be easyish to do. IF you had weaponized epidemic disease.

This would be a HORRIBLE thing to do, and im glad the allies dont have the germs, because otherwise theyd be tempted.

Japans air defenses by that point would be shredded.

Of course, the germs would escape, as someone else pointed out. So even if the allies had vaccinations for the mutant virus, thered be millions of civilian deaths in eg china.

So, yes it would be EVIL. And STUPID.

Unfortunately, that doesnt necessarily stop governments. Sigh./

Dathi

Would would be very, very nasty, and less dangerous for non-Japanese, would be widespread chemical use against crops. Don't know what they had in the way herbicides at that period but that could be really bad as Japan was unable to produce enough food to feed itself without imports of other supplies anyway. I don't think this would occur however unless the Japanese use chemical weapons against the western powers or possibly the allies learn about their use against the Chinese.

Things could go a lost worse for Japan in TTL as its likely to see a prolonged blockade simply because the western powers think an invasion too costly for them and, for the 1st couple of years at least have an higher priority in Europe.

Steve
 
That's one of the options I was thinking of. Won't work but it would anger the Allies. The Japanese might even try to rationalize it to themselves. If there's a long period of blockade and bombing major disease outbreaks in Japan are quite likely; they could claim it's the result of allied bio weapons and they are just retaliating.

Of course it's all academic as we are still stuck in Malaya and Java. Given the weather in the UK I fear Astrodragon may be submerged somewhere.:(

Garrison

You mean the mild precipitation we're having.:rolleyes: This is Britain. There is a reason we ruled the seas so long.;)

Also Astrodragon is a British dragon, which means his natural element is water. He's probably off gallivanting, enjoying it somewhere.;)

Steve
 

abc123

Banned
Given the weather in the UK I fear Astrodragon may be submerged somewhere.:(



In some other parts of Europe people would be happy with such weather now...
Where I live it's 38 degrees for about 20 consecutive days and it probable will not become less hot for about a month...
;)
 
Geez, I should post faster, you guys aren't safe to be left on your own...:D:D

I've been having a schorkel fitted for the rest of the summer...:D

Next update nearly done. Yamamoto isn't going to be happy...
 
23rd-24th March

As night falls the two cruiser forces are still manoeuvring for advantage. The Japanese are trying to get into a position for a night attack, while the Allied force is trying to slip along the coast to get at the invasion convoy. A strike is attempted on the Japanese at 1730 from HMS Colossus, but was unable to find the force; the ASV-equipped plane leading the strike had equipment failure, and the rest of the strike did not spot the Japanese beneath the cloud cover. With the Japanese force now lost, HMS Colossus is ordered to fall back on the main fleet. However her earlier attacks on the Japanese cruiser force have given away her approximate position. At 1715 (while her own strike is on the way to the estimated position of the Japanese cruisers) a large enemy raid is detected closing from the north-east. This is a surprise to the plotting crew, who had not been expecting a strike from that direction. It is in fact a strike from the three IJN light carriers comprising the cover force for the invasion fleet; this force had been detected earlier by a USAAF aircraft yesterday, and Somerville is intending to attack it. Due to a mishap, the report of the force had been missed by Colossus and her destroyer escorts.

The incoming attack consisted of 24 torpedo planes and 20 dive bombers, escorted by 16 fighters. As the Colossus was also covering the Allied cruiser force, she only had 14 fighters available, although all of these were either airborne or launched before the enemy raid arrived. Ironically this raid had been spotted by a Catalina on its way west, but it had been assumed it was headed towards Somerville's main carrier force, who were preparing to launch their own strike against the covering force, having spent the day closing the range.

The FAA fighters tried to engage the raid, in particular the dive bombers (felt to pose the greatest risk to a light carrier), but the Japanese escort fighters closed to protect them. In the ensuing fight 10 Sparrowhawks were shot down for the loss of 4 dive bombers and 7 escorting fighters. Another dive bomber and three torpedo planes were shot down by the AA fire of the carrier and her escorts. Despite radical manoeuvring, the Colossus was hit by four torpedoes, one of which failed to explode. The damage caused by those that hit was enough to force her to a halt as her both her engine rooms started to flood. This abrupt stop actually helped her evade the first of the dive bombers, who were unable to compensate for the sudden loss of speed, and six huge plumes of water rose into the air in front of the listing carrier. Despite all her AA could so, the remaining 10 dive bombers dove down to deliver their 500lb bombs. The ship was hit three times, all three bombs penetrating her hanger. Two burst in the hanger itself (fortunately empty of planes), the third penetrated into the forward engine room (the light carriers had no hanger deck armour), where it exploded, wrecking the equipment. Colossus was left heavily on fire and listing from the water flooding in through the torpedo holes.

Even as the Colossus was being attacked, the main British strike was on its way. The force was centred around the fleet carriers HMS Illustrious and HMS Implacable, and the light carrier HMAS Melbourne. Their strike consisted of 24 SeaLance torpedo planes and 24 Cormorant dive bombers, escorted by 20 Sparrowhawks. Somerville intended to follow up this attack with a night strike, but this would not be prepared until after dark (he did not want armed and fuelled planes on deck or in the hanger with a possible inbound Japanese airstrike). The strike arrived at the Japanese carrier force just after sunset.

The Japanese force was centred around three light carriers (despite the reports, they were only escorted by heavy cruisers, not battleships). These were the carriers Takasaki and Tsurigisaki (converted into carriers as part of the response to the increased RN carrier program in the late 30's), and the CLV Taiyo. between them they carried over 80 planes. The carriers were escorted by four cruisers and 8 destroyers. The incoming strike was not spotted until it was ten miles away from the carriers, the fading light having made the raid commander decide to go straight in. Due to the fighters sent off to escort the raid on Colossus, the force only had 14 fighters available, and due to the short warning time only 9 were in the air when the strike arrived. The defenders were immediately attacked by the Sparrowhawks, preventing them from closing with the attacking planes, and only one torpedo plane was lost to the defending fighters. All 9 of the Japanese fighters were shot down for the loss of six Sparrowhawks.

The attacks were lead by the torpedo planes. One was shot down on its attacking run, and another forced to drop its torpedo and turn away by the AA fire, but 21 SeaLance remained. Without enemy fighters to worry about, the swept in on the first two carriers in a classic hammer and anvil attack, hitting the Takasaki with three torpedoes, and the Tsurigisaki with one. These were not the new Mk XV aerial torpedoes, but even so the hits crippled the two Japanese ships. Even as the torpedo planes swung away, the dive bombers were falling into their near-vertical dives. Most of the planes were attacking the two already-damaged carriers (the third carrier, Taiyo, was some distance away and had been missed in the hurry to get the attack in before dark). The Cormorants were carrying 500lb bombs due to the range (the strike had been launched at near to the maximum range, as the Japanese force was under observation by ASV-equipped RAF planes which had been able to guide it in), but these were more than adequate against the poorly-protected converted carriers. The Takasaki, already reeling and listing from the torpedo hits, and with no fighters to worry about the Cormorants could take their time. Three bombs hit the Takasaki, leaving her blazing in the falling night, and four exploded deep inside the Tsurigisaki. Ten minutes after the raid, the Tsurigasaki exploded, sinking soon after. She would be joined in an hour by the Takasaki, her converted hull unable to take the damage from torpedoes and bombs.

The remaining 6 dive bombers headed for the Taiyo, which had been finally been spotted. The light was failing, and the dive bombers did not manage to get any hits, although the reported the carrier as 'damaged', having mistaken a couple of close misses as hits. The planes made it back to their carriers after dark, landing safely as, despite the risk of submarine attack, the carriers used landing lights for help the planes land safely.

To the south, the invasion convoy had made landfall late in the afternoon. The Dutch commander of the defences had decided to let them land then counterattack, a decision later criticised by the Imperial commanders. As a result by sunset some 4,000 troops had got ashore (although with little equipment), only resisted by local light forces. The Dutch commander reported he would launch an attack on the beachhead at 0700 the following morning.

Unknown to the Japanese, Somerville had a second carrier force off Java - the two fleet carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Bulwark. This force was south of the island, and had been steaming east all day at 25 knots, putting it in range of the Japanese landing by 1800. The force had not been detected; the Japanese reconnaissance was concentrated north of Java, as they had indications of a carrier force there, and their intelligence led them to believe the RN only had the ships available to form one force. This would lead to one of the FAA's trademark night strikes. At 1900 the first strike set off, led by the ASV-equipped Spearfish, followed an hour later by the rest of the planes. As the Japanese had no night fighter capability as far as the RN knew, the strikes were unescorted. The first that the Japanese knew was when their frantic unloading of their ships was suddenly illuminated by flares dropped by the raid leaders. The only defence of the ships was by wild and ineffective AA fire, as the torpedo planes bore in to attack the transport ships. The second strike, by the remaining torpedo planes and the dive bombers, was even easier - by now the Japanese defence was erratic and uncoordinated, the sea and the remaining ships lit by the burning hulks left by the first strike. By the time the last of the planes were recovered to the carriers, only three transports were left, and the aircraft had also sunk two cruisers.

The Japanese now had only 6,000 men ashore on Java, with only limited equipment and ammunition.
 
Is Colossus a gonner? Not that it really matters if she is, since the Japanese have much bigger problems to worry about anyway, but it would be strangely satisfying for the Japanese to at last sink something, even if it is only a CVL.
 
Guys

Well that was bloody. I think we're lost Colossus. Even a fleet CV is going to be vulnerable to that many hits and the lessor deck armour probably means the engine damage is a lot worse. There is also the problem of where her a/c go. At night, once they find they can't land on the ship they need to get a new home quickly. Somewhere on Java is probably best but would leave them without much logistical support. Not to mention a night landing on an unknown airfield.:eek: Just hope the local defenders get the message their coming.

Presuming that's the case I think that's the 1st RN CV lost isn't it? Or was there one earlier in the European theatre. I know there have been some cases of ships getting knocked about a good bit.

On the plus side the Japanese have lost 2CVL along with a lot of their crew, even if their a/c can make a safe landing somewhere. Also while a medium/small force has landed on Java its virtually cut off and probably pretty short of supplies. Hopefully it can be crippled if not defeated fairly quickly.

On the down side, if they believe their own reports the Japanese will be having a oh fuck moment as their wondering where this last night attack comes from.

I thought the Japanese covering force that had been spotted has been based around a couple of fleet carriers? Have I got it wrong, as I think that was the invasion force heading for Bali or have we now located both of them?

With 4CV and 2CVL it should hopefully be possible to launch overwhelming attacks on the other enemy carrier force.

Steve
 
Correct. I was saying that dropping epidemic disease on japan to add to the misery would be easyish to do. IF you had weaponized epidemic disease.

This would be a HORRIBLE thing to do, and im glad the allies dont have the germs, because otherwise theyd be tempted.

Japans air defenses by that point would be shredded.

Of course, the germs would escape, as someone else pointed out. So even if the allies had vaccinations for the mutant virus, thered be millions of civilian deaths in eg china.

So, yes it would be EVIL. And STUPID.

Unfortunately, that doesnt necessarily stop governments. Sigh./

There is a difference between bacteriological and viral warfare. With bacteriological warfare you can at least fight against the disease. Viral warfare is INSANE. I can't imagine that anyone would seriously invest in something that could indeed turn on its users and potentially wipe out the human race. This is "Omega Man" territory.
 
Usertron2020, what large numbers of POW’s in Japan? ITTL, other then the American captured in the Philippines, far, far fewer troops have been captured, and those that have, given how tight shipping space is for the Japanese, I do not see large numbers being shipped to Japan. I believe that by the time Japan is isolated, you would be looking a few hundred POW’s, not the thousands that were seen IOTL.

There are all those POW's captured in the Philippines. Since those transports going to supply their Empire they will be returning empty. So there is no reason why they can't be stuffed with prisoners, as happened OTL. The Japanese would notify the Americans of prison transport ships, so they wouldn't be sunk by submarines. Then stuff half (the lower half) with resources taken from their conquered territories and put the POW's over them.

Less prisoners, yes. But still in the tens of thousands at least, and ITTL, they'll be in large degree Americans. Since the invasion of Japan would be mostly American in nature, it's their call whether to carry it out.
 
I agree with the comments about Ho. The brits are going to have enough problem ousting the japanese from malayasia and indonesia, to use anachronistic labels.

Once the allies have secured access to the resources there, and denied them to the japanese, there will be huge pressure to redeploy the bulk of the forces back to eurpe, back to the main fight.

The us will want free the philiipines and china, and wont be interested in recovering frances coloniaal empire for her.

So, what i see is lots of smuggling of weapons in, by land and by sea, but only a minor effort, if any, at an actual allied invasion.

This could encorage ho to tone down his communist rhetoric, and increase the natiionalist tone, which would help him post war.

Agreed. The OSS gave what support they could to Ho, and his two OSS liaison officers thought the world of him. They wanted Ho to get every weapon the US could send to him. But after the war, the French were able to play the "Allied" card to the hilt, and force Truman (who didn;t have the investment FDR did in Ho) to abandon support of the VM. The two friendly OSS officers? Assassinated!:mad:
 
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