The Whale has Wings

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Ramp-Rat

I think even in the Atlantic the Queens, frequently used as troopships, sailed independently because of their speed and never had any problems. Even less so TTL with no large surface threat and greater air coverage limiting raiders and subs. Hence a lot of troop movements could go unescorted but not sure how many large fast liners were available. Also there could be political problems if a trooper was unlucky and sunk with a large loss of say Indian or Australian lives.

Thinking of oil in case there is a shortage and possibly the Germans see the sense of actually targeting tankers.

With the ballast situation I was wondering what will happen with ships carrying L-L to China? TTL, presuming allied control of the Bay of Bengal and Burma this is likely to be markedly larger. As such would Britain/India be able to find goods to send back on the return trip, which could have significant economic consequences or would the US insist on ballast? Presumably the same limitations America placed on British trade would be applied to India but it might have other products, especially more raw materials perhaps.

Steve

Unless the fire on Normandie hasn't been butterflied away, you have three large, fast liners:

SS Normandie
RMS Queen Mary
RMS Queen Elizabeth

Each ship can carry about 15,000 troops.
 
Unless the fire on Normandie hasn't been butterflied away, you have three large, fast liners:

SS Normandie
RMS Queen Mary
RMS Queen Elizabeth

Each ship can carry about 15,000 troops.

Hope it was butteflied away, she was a beautiful ship. Maybe they are still converting her to carrier? although As a fast troopship she would be of great use.

totals for the QE were 750,000 carried during the war, so if the normandie adds that too, thats a considerable capacity.
 
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They are the big ones.

There are a lot more: Aquitania, Mauretania Isle de France, Union Castle, Canadian Pacific, Bermudas, Royal Mail Lines, anything called Highland. Many of the refigerated meat transports pre war doubled as liners with a heavy first class passneger complement (500 passengers) . These could carry 1500-5000 troops as a ferry, fewer if they were combat ready or near so and pre LST some are listed as invasion transports.

A lot of similar ships were taken up as AMC and returned to trade later in the war with things looking up there may not be such a need for emergency cruisers.

All other things aside I could see little need for convoy protection from say Freetown - India. But I think that is the case OTL anyway - the convoys were there because of Italians in Eritrea, then the Japanese then (from April 42) when U cruisers start operating. The real advantage comes from not having the round Africa convoys to Egypt or fighting them through the Med.
 
Sorry, its been very hot here, and Dragons dont work well in the heat.
Much more on the Java situation soon...

I know what you mean; I spent the week working in a factory unit full of running electronic equipment under a roof with a long sealed window set into it. Might as well have been a greenhouse.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
stevep, in regard to backloads out of the Far East, you have the following that I know off. Tin, rubber, mineral oil, palm oil, rice, tropical hardwoods, hemp, jute, sisal, silk, tea, various spices, wolfram, saltpetre, quinine, and coffee. Note that due to American anti-drugs legislation, the growing of hemp, (marijuana) was and is up until now prohibited, with the increased demand and lack of supply during WWII, this law was relaxed for the duration. I am sure that there are many other exports, most of which wouldn’t be available from elsewhere, or if available not in the quantities needed by the increased war production. Loads wouldn’t be large, but should enable the amount of ballast to be reduced.

Another thing to consider is returning ships might not be backloaded for the US/UK, but instead for intermediate ports, where they will then load different cargoes for ether the US or UK. I.E. rice, spices, tea and coffee to North Africa, then iron ore for the UK. Trade which was severely hampered by events IOTL, will be somewhat freer in this one. I have left out goods from Australia and New Zealand, as the majority of what the sent at this time was frozen/canned meat and dairy products, which require specialist shipping.

As for the hemp, jute and sisal, in the days before plastics, they were vital products in the packaging industry, and for rope making. Shortages of silk IOTL lead the British to develop the Jutechute in India, for use as a cargo parachute. Quinine was at the time, the most commonly used anti-malaria drug, and shortages once the Japanese captured the principal source of it in the DEI, caused many problems for the allies in the early years. As it wasn’t just in the tropics that it was needed, at that time, there were problems with malaria in Southern Europe and in the American South too.

At the end of the day, the Americans are going to find it far harder than they did to inhibit Britain’s trade. And this as already be stated will have major effects on Britain’s post war position. As she should to an extent be far stronger financially than see was, and not to have lost markets to American corporations as she did.
 
Rubber is a biggie. While the need to develop and expand synthetic rubber production will still exist (by the USA) having extra natural latex will allow for use of resources put in to synthetic rubber production to be used elsewhere. Of course the Japanese won't get the rubber they did OTL, just another resource straw on the camel's back.

Expecting that the US presence in the ETO is going to be smaller overall ITTL than OTL, that also reduces the rubber demand as fewer US troops in Europe=less need for condoms :)
 
Expecting that the US presence in the ETO is going to be smaller overall ITTL than OTL, that also reduces the rubber demand as fewer US troops in Europe=less need for condoms :)(1)

Why? OTL the problem was the presence was not big enough, not that that this TL will mean less need.:confused:

1) Very funny.
 
Rubber is a biggie. While the need to develop and expand synthetic rubber production will still exist (by the USA) having extra natural latex will allow for use of resources put in to synthetic rubber production to be used elsewhere. Of course the Japanese won't get the rubber they did OTL, just another resource straw on the camel's back.

Expecting that the US presence in the ETO is going to be smaller overall ITTL than OTL, that also reduces the rubber demand as fewer US troops in Europe=less need for condoms :)

sloreck

Wonder why you're thinking that? With Japan going down the tube earlier less resources will be needed in the Pacific and it might even be over by the time the US approaches full mobilisation, say in 44. Hence could see more US forces in Europe than OTL.

Steve
 
I honestly think that the SS Normandie fire should be butterflied, because it was seized by the US to make a troop transport in OTL, but ITTL their relations with the Free French are a lot better ...

Of course that even then is possible that the French decide to change it to a transport anyway ...
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
That's smart, but so are the British, so it's possible to presume that they've thought of this, and have decided to get around it by disguising the tankers as normal ships.

Disguise isn't much of an option as they look quite different.

100 tankers isn't much of a weak link, but they could build more if need be. 8,500 ton (11,000 ton capacity) is about the max for Suez draft at this time. 500ftx70ftx29ft -ish.

While the French don't have many requirements to move 15,000 troops quickly, they can use the transport in the cause and as a bargaining chip/ship.

Rubber amounts to a huge profit for the empire. A reason why the plantations had enough clout to sabotage their own defence! Shipping rubber to Europe and America, Hemp to America, Jute, Sizal and Rice to India. Still a very busy trade route. The UK might cash and carry for a bit longer, but will run out of cash (even if less heavy bombers are built). L-L has come just in time. Machine tools, Instruments (marine and aviation), Naval, AA and Field guns, Aluminium and Armour plate being most urgent requirements. The rest of OTL shopping list might be different.

Iron ore locally allows UK Steel plants to operate fully. No need to import expensive ready made steel. Dunlop and Avon will be exporting rubber goods such as tyres and window seals (yes and the London Rubber Co. 'Johnnies'). Production will have to continue for military needs, so they may as well turn a profit too.

Canadian terms on aluminium and timber will look comparatively attractive when the USA is still asking for cash, but the terms of L-L will sway the level of aluminium production in Canada in later years.

America has superb mini valves and electronic production on a large scale to offer. If Radar and R/T sets are ordered as L-L it might prove difficult to build up the UK electronics industry post-war.
 
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Regarding the use of hemp and anti-MJ laws in the US?

People, why do you think the movie was called "Reefer Madness", not "Cocaine Madness" or "Heroin Madness"? Because thanks to the invention of the de-corticator, mass production of hemp had finally become not only profitable, but much more so than in it's only real rival at the time. Paper. So a mass-hysteria campaign was launched by the paper and timber industries to terrorize the American population into believing marijuana was a naturally growing combination of MJ, cocaine, heroin, LSD, crack, and angel dust (even though the last three hadn't been invented yet!:rolleyes:). They had no problem doing such a campaign considering who was the man with a controlling interest in the timber and paper markets.

William Randolph Hearst!:rolleyes:

And it's too late now for Hearst to just fall down a flight of stairs.

The sugar industry took a page from Hearst by forcing the withdrawal of cyclamates in soda pop in the early seventies. They got Congress to "commission" a study on the long term effects of cyclamates. The study said cyclamates were harmless. The study came out after 17 years. The day after the patents expired.:mad:
 
America has superb mini valves and electronic production on a large scale to offer. If Radar and R/T sets are ordered as L-L it might prove difficult to build up the UK electronics industry post-war.

IIRC there was some mention of accelerated British radar development and licencing by US companies early on in the timeline...
 
Page 300. SKRONK!

JUst at the bit with the whole 'Thailand declares War'.

It's nice to have plentiful updates to look forward to.
 
March 22nd

In New Guinea, 75 Squadron RAAF, based at Port Moresby, makes it combat debut. Six Curtiss Kittyhawks (P-40Es) make a surprise attack at dawn on the Japanese forces at Lae. Two A6M2 Zeroes are shot down for the loss of two Kittyhawks, although one pilot is saved.

A single Mitsubishi Ki-15 reconnaissance takes off from the Celebes to reconnoitre the defences of Darwin, Northern Territory, in readiness for a larger strike force of Mitsubishi G4M Bombers Coast watchers on Bathurst Island notify Darwin of the approaching reconnaissance aircraft at about 1200 hours and it is shot down by a P-40 of the 9th Pursuit Squadron, their first radar-guided interception. As anticipated, the Japanese bombers make a raid that same day but not on Darwin. They fly 200 miles further southeast and bomb Katherine, Northern Territory. They presumably were hoping to find Allied bombers at the Katherine Airfield but none were there and damage at the airfield is minimal. Officially described as: "An aborigine was killed, another wounded and some damage was done to the aerodrome.".

It is officially announced in Australia that John Curtin will officially take over as Prime Minister 'until such time as Robert Menzies has recovered'. There has been considerable debate in the Labour party overnight about how to handle this; one part of the party wanted to use this as a reason to call an election, which they are confident of winning, but in the end were outvoted by more cautious elements. They pointed out that calling an election due to the collapse of Menzies while Australia is under attack would look like blatant opportunism, whereas waiting, and showing that they can do an even better job (especially as it is felt that the tide is turning in favour of Australia) will allow them to gather the middle ground votes who will be swayed by the display of statesmanship and putting Australia first, thus giving them a much stronger majority if they go to the country next year. Curtin announces that no changes will be made in Australian policy as a result of Menzie's collapse, but in private he has used his new office to stress that unless an Australian is appointed as head of the Australian theatre the Labour party might have to withdraw from the coalition. This is part of the strategy to show that a Labour PM can lead Australia in the war successfully. The appointment of Blamey has already been supported by Britain, and the ridicule MacArthur has managed to attain in the Australian press has hardly helped his cause. MacArthur himself is still heading south by train, and is out of easy contact with his government.

In support of the Japanese attacks on Java, general Yamashita commences an offensive operation in northern Malaya. Led by the 56th Division, the attack is aimed at what Yamashita considers two weak spots in the Imperial defence line; aggressive patrolling and reconnaissance has been undertaken over the last month to find these with a view to exploitation. The initial attack goes well, although the defences are on alert (an operation to take advantage of the attack on Java was hardly unexpected), but by nightfall the Japanese infantry have managed to push forward between a number of the allied units. Blamey informs Alexander that he is not as yet concerned, and that he believes the Japanese do not have to force required for a serious breakthrough. he intends to let them get a little more forward before, as he puts it, 'cutting them off at the knee'. There are intense air operations on both sides in support of the ground action, and despite the precautions and alert status the RAF loses some aircraft on the ground to the initial Japanese raids. However the Japanese are now outnumbered by the RAF and RAAF, and by the end of the day they are preventing any serious air attacks on the Imperial defence line.

Off Java, allied reconnaissance planes indicate that the Japanese invasion convoy is most likely heading for East Java. This is in fact in error, as late in the day part of the convoy splits off and heads for Bali, which has a usable airfield the Japanese want to support their invasion of Java. Somerville is reluctant to commit his heavy forces until he finds where the Japanese have placed their support - he does not believe that they would try and invade Java without air support from carriers - however the cruiser force is ordered to engage the invasion fleet after dawn on the 23rd. Air support will be from the air bases on Java, and from the CVL Colossus which is held some distance back from the cruisers. It is planned to have Beaufighters make a torpedo strike at dawn, which it is hoped will leave the convoy in disarray when the surface force attacks.
The force heading for Bali runs into a US submarine that night; an attack is made but only one hit is attained on a transport. More usefully the submarine radios in the location and heading of the force, which allows the defenders of Bali to be put on alert.

The allies had not expected the Japanese to attack Bali at this point (assuming they would have concentrated on Java), and only have small forces on the island. They order the airfield commander to destroy the airstrip to deny it to the Japanese (any planes are to fly off for Java before this is done), then delay the Japanese as far as possible before withdrawing.

March 23rd

On Bataan in the PI US and Filipino troops dig in for the soon-expected Japanese attack. General Homma has been reinforced by more army bombers, although the Japanese too are having difficulties with food, and the best part of division of troops is in hospital

Dawn sees considerable action around Java.

At first light a heavy Japanese air attack destroys some aircraft on the ground at Timor, at the cost of a number of bombers; the Japanese need to keep the islands airfields suppressed until they have airfields at Java. The allies do not have any spare long range bombers available to attack the Japanese airfields in return; these are being held back to support Java.

Shortly after dawn a torpedo strike by 24 RAAF Beaufighters escorted by 16 Sparrowhawks. The heavy escort is needed, as the convoy is covered by a dozen Zero fighters. The zeros damage one Beaufighter and shoot down a second before the Sparrowhawks intercept; in the resulting battle five Sparrowhawks are lost for four Zeroes. However this allows the remaining Beaufighters to make their torpedo attacks impeded only by AA fire from the escort and the transports. As the final Beaufighter leaves the scene, three transports are sinking and a Japanese light cruiser is heavily down by the head.

The RAF and Somerville are coordinating attacks from Java, however these are put temporarily on hold as a USAAF Catalina finally finds the Japanese heavy support group. Before the Catalina is forces to take cover in cloud (already slightly damaged by a Zero), the pilot reports 'at least two carriers and two battleships plus supporting ships'. In fact the battleships are cruisers - this misidentification was a consistent feature for both sides in air reconnaissance. The Japanese force is well back from the invasion fleet, but it is likely that it supplied the defensive cover that disrupted the Beaufighter raid. Somerville expects his main force to be in striking range by late afternoon, and in the meantime attacks on the invasion fleet will have to be handled by the RAF. Somerville also has two u-class boats in the general area of the Japanese, and hopes that they will be in a position to finish off any Japanese ships he can cripple with his air strikes.
 
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I hope that Curtin has a better war than OTL. Many of the stresses that he faced have been blamed for his death.

Seeing as Australia is not under the same perceived threat as it was in the OTL,does this mean he'd have a longer life span? If so it would be quite a large impact on post war Australian politics.
 
That's smart, but so are the British, so it's possible to presume that they've thought of this, and have decided to get around it by disguising the tankers as normal ships.

According to this site here

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fww2ships.com%2Facrobat%2Fus-os-001-f-r00.pdf&images=yes


some Liberty ships were built as tankers (Page 12) retaining the amidships superstructure and having fake derricks etc to disguise the fact they were tankers.

Interestingly, the same site also said that a number of Liberty ships built as colliers (Page 15) had their machinery superstructure aft and bridge superstructure amidships like a tanker......

Its best to google the link (Liberty cargo ship by James Davies) and download the PDF
 
Astrodragon

Good to see an update:D and the rumble is starting.:D

The allies have been caught slightly flat-footed by the fact this Japanese attack is targeting Bali rather than Java itself but, if it succeeded it could be very bad for the Japanese. Since they would have a forward base, but one very close to allied centres of power and hence under continued attack and very costly to supply. That is if they get that far. Given the forces involved and the fact the invasion force has already lost 3 ships

Presuming that this is the only Japanese force invasion in the region currently then it should be a victory for the allies, although never can tell. The mis-observation of the cruisers as BBs will be a pain but knowing the IJN has 2CV here should enable the US to be more confident about attacks on the Marshall's. If they know that one [Akagi] is damaged and out of play they only have two others to worry about. If we can sink at least one of the CVs off Bali then the Japanese will, too late, start to realise how deep the hole their in. If Somerville can get all 4CVs, excluding Audacious, into play then it should be a case of what little the Japanese get back.

Good that Yamashita has attacked as that should be the 1st step in completing the destruction of his army. Hopefully bled it heavily in their attack then smash what's left before it can recover or re-supply.

The politics in Australia will probably be a boost for Labour as Blamey is almost certain to get the post and they will claim it was because of them. However could be a problem extracting him from the Malaya front in the middle of a battle.

I think people are contributing too much to this thread!:rolleyes: Had to go back to p331 to confirm my memory was OK and that was only about 4-5 TL chapters from Astrodragon;) Have you made a mistake about that Ki-15? "Mitsubishi Ki-15 reconnaissance takes off from Koepang, Timor". What Japanese base on Timor? I think their only got a few POWs there.:D

Steve
 
Sorry, Keopang was a typo- fixed.

BTW, the Japanese, optimistic as ever, are attempting to land on Java and Bali at the same time. Considering they are currently outnumberd on the ground in Java, this might be a mistake....;)
 
Sorry, Keopang was a typo- fixed.

OK, thanks.

BTW, the Japanese, optimistic as ever, are attempting to land on Java and Bali at the same time. Considering they are currently outnumberd on the ground in Java, this might be a mistake....;)

So, victory disease without the victory.;) That suggest as I was suspecting, another invasion force. Big question is, is there a 2nd covering force. If so and of matching strength to the one already spotted them things could get interesting, not to mention tight. If not then I suspect that covering force is dead as its going to have to cover too much against too many opponents for too long.:D

Steve
 
OK, thanks.



So, victory disease without the victory.;) That suggest as I was suspecting, another invasion force. Big question is, is there a 2nd covering force. If so and of matching strength to the one already spotted them things could get interesting, not to mention tight. If not then I suspect that covering force is dead as its going to have to cover too much against too many opponents for too long.:D

Steve

Remember, up until now all the Japanese invasions have worked (although a couple ran into trouble later :)
But there is a secon convoy forming up; once they are (hah!) sitting on East Java it is aimed at mid-Java (as OTL). No West Java invasion now, its simply not possible.
There is only one main (carrier-centred) covering force, but there is also at least one cruiser force around, and they may detatch a carrier.
OTOH, Somerville has another heavy TF south of Java...:)
 
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