The Whale has Wings

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The allies (the British in particular) have reasons for wanting to land on an Italian possession. They've been talking (very quietly and unofficially) with some people in or close to the Italian government.

However the logical time for an operation (as its had to be postponed due to Japan) would be soon after the German summer offensive in Russia kicks off and ties up their troops.

It should also be noted that apart from a (relatively small) LW presence, there are not large numbers of German ground forces in Italy - indeed, Italy is currenly bringing back some of its army in Russia, they are being replaced by German units that were in NA in OTL. The Italian argument has more force this time, pointing out that while they lost to the British in NA, the Germans didn't do any better..and Italy is best defended by Italians.

So, to defend Italy, are they sent to the South, or the Alps?

Troops returning from Russia need rest, and the Alpine air would do them some good...
 
I'd generally say stick with attacking Sicily rather than Sardinia due to the already mentioned distance issues and pull and Operation Mincemeat on the Axis like in our timeline. Since as Astrodragon says the Italian's arguments about bringing more of their troops back from Russia to be replaced by German ones that would of been in North Africa having more force as they didn't achieve much either, imagine the Italian reaction when they receive the cast-iron guaranteed intelligence that the Allies are going to hit Sardinia but they then invade Sicily instead? :)


Any plans for Malta class?
Would there be any need? From what I can remember the Royal Navy has something like six modern fleet carriers, eight light carriers, and a number of escort carriers either in service or to be in service by mid-1942. They've already smashed the Germans and the Italians, and whilst the situation with the Japanese is still looking undecided they've also got the Australian light and American fleet carriers to work with as well. I could well see the Treasury and other Ministries trying to argue that they've got all they really need and the resources and shipyards could be better utilised on other things.
 
I'd generally say stick with attacking Sicily rather than Sardinia due to the already mentioned distance issues and pull and Operation Mincemeat on the Axis like in our timeline. Since as Astrodragon says the Italian's arguments about bringing more of their troops back from Russia to be replaced by German ones that would of been in North Africa having more force as they didn't achieve much either, imagine the Italian reaction when they receive the cast-iron guaranteed intelligence that the Allies are going to hit Sardinia but they then invade Sicily instead? :)



Would there be any need? From what I can remember the Royal Navy has something like six modern fleet carriers, eight light carriers, and a number of escort carriers either in service or to be in service by mid-1942. They've already smashed the Germans and the Italians, and whilst the situation with the Japanese is still looking undecided they've also got the Australian light and American fleet carriers to work with as well. I could well see the Treasury and other Ministries trying to argue that they've got all they really need and the resources and shipyards could be better utilised on other things.

They have 6 Audacious class in the works (one now complete), and the CVL are now on the second (larger batch). Its unlikely they will go for Malta, by the time one could be built (late 45), they dont see the need. They may even suspend the last couple of the Audacious and rebuild them, that depends on how well the war goes at sea.
 
Six Audacious-class? So that's the two Ark Royals, four Formidables, one Audacious finished and another five to come, along with the five Colossus' and the three improved Majestics that makes twelve modern fleets and eight lights if all completed. When you say suspend and rebuild the last couple do you mean cancel them and rebuild some of the earlier ones or suspend and then build them to a slightly modified design based on what they've learnt? Considering that they originally argued for eight of each to meet their needs never mind suspending the last few to rebuild them I'd be expecting the Treasury to call time and say that the two Audacious-class are the last of them as that gives them the eight they wanted. The Navy might be able to get away with arguing for say two more of them to be completed to replace the Ark Royals as they're qualitatively just so much better but even that would be a hard sell in the middle of a war with so many other pressing needs.
 
In the Mediterranean

About "soft underbelly" I would rather go for Sardinia as first target, not against Sicily.
I agree, Sicily may be more important because of shipping trough Mediterranean, but Sardinia is harder to support and supply for Italians and also gives Britain more options for future attacks (Germans and Italians don't know whether next target is Corsica or Sicily ).

Grr. I have already posted this. Multiple times I think. Your lawyer, my lawyer.:mad: You can throw in that the extension of British supply also means air range up along the western Italian coastline, leaving that coast in range of invasion (unwise, but the Italians will have to defend against the threat) and it puts Rome in strategic bombing range. Bombing Rome OTL had enormous consequences for Mussolini.

Also, Sardinia avoids the problem faced by the British in 1942. Namely, of the Germans railing a few elite panzer and panzergrenadier divisions to basically shut down any offensive British operations (at least in terms of getting any meaningful breakouts) well into 1943.:( And German air power cannot be beaten by the RAF offensively while the Luftwaffe is sitting on the defensive, especially when the Germans have reserves to send to the Med from the West or even Russia if they must.

The Luftwaffe cannot be decisively beaten at this time in the war, not before the USAAC arrives in any real strength. That won't happen prior to the end of 1942.:( The RAF can challenge the Luftwaffe now, no question. But if the Luftwaffe really wants to go all out...
 
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Six Audacious-class? So that's the two Ark Royals, four Formidables, one Audacious finished and another five to come, along with the five Colossus' and the three improved Majestics that makes twelve modern fleets and eight lights if all completed. When you say suspend and rebuild the last couple do you mean cancel them and rebuild some of the earlier ones or suspend and then build them to a slightly modified design based on what they've learnt? Considering that they originally argued for eight of each to meet their needs never mind suspending the last few to rebuild them I'd be expecting the Treasury to call time and say that the two Audacious-class are the last of them as that gives them the eight they wanted. The Navy might be able to get away with arguing for say two more of them to be completed to replace the Ark Royals as they're qualitatively just so much better but even that would be a hard sell in the middle of a war with so many other pressing needs.

remember that in OTL when they were short of carriers in 1942 they were planning on ordering 24 carriers!!

The carrier needs by this point in the war are far higher than pre-war.
Likely they will carry on with the CVL until 1844 (they only take 2 years to build), the 2nd pair of Audacious are not worth stopping, but the 3rd pair may (if everything is going well ) be halted to allow the manpower to work on things like landing craft.

Remember the rule of thumb is that 1 year of war service = 3/4 years of peacetime service, so by the end of the war the prewar carriers will be near the end of their lives.
 

abc123

Banned
Grr. I have already posted this. Multiple times I think. Your lawyer, my lawyer.:mad: You can throw in that the extension of British supply also means air range up along the western Italian coastline, leaving that coast in range of invasion (unwise, but the Italians will have to defend against the threat) and it puts Rome in strategic bombing range. Bombing Rome OTL had enormous consequences for Mussolini.

Also, Sardinia avoids the problem faced by the British in 1942. Namely, of the Germans railing a few elite panzer and panzergrenadier divisions to basically shut down any offensive British operations (at least in terms of getting any meaningful breakouts) well into 1943.:( And the Luftwaffe cannot be beaten by the RAF offensively while the Luftwaffe is sitting on the defensive, especially when the Germans have reserves to send to the Med from the West or even Russia if they must.

The Luftwaffe cannot be decisively beaten at this time in the war, not before the USAAC arrives in any real strength. That won't happen prior to the end of 1942.:( The RAF can challenge the Luftwaffe now, no question. But if the Luftwaffe really wants to go all out...



Well, if you said that before, sorry, I didn't see it. Nothing weird for 450 pages thread...

About Luftwaffe, IMO Luftwaffe has more important things to do in Eastern front...
Also, with island hopping in Dodecanese Germans will have a lot of area to cover, from southern France to Greece and Bulgary.
 
I agree that Sardinia is a interesting option but can the Allies project enough airpower over the island as it's further away from the North African bases then Sicily?

I believe they can, as the interesting thing about Sardinia is it has only one major port, Cagliari, all the way down in the extreme south of the island, Since the British are going to land there anyway, and there are no German forces on site, once the port is secured, the Italians have only two minor ports, Oristano and Olbia, with which the Italians can draw supply.

Note-Until the British can repair the damage done to Cagliari's port facilities the Italians will be able to reinforce Sardinia and supply there on-island forces. But there are no rails on Sardinia worthy of the name, meaning only the port of Oristano is in supply range of contesting British operations in and around Cagliari.

A large wide valley running between Cagliari and Oristano allows easy movement and local supply for the Italians, but the reverse is true for the British once Cagliari is operational as a major port again. That would, depending on circumstances, depend on how long it takes to finish repair efforts. 4-10 weeks? Once Cagliari is up and running, air superiority can be fully established over the rest of the northwestern Med, meaning the RAF can suppress the ports of Oristano and Olbia, effectively shutting down the Sardinian Campaign for good.:)

Olbia is behind a large amount of very heavy rough terrain, isolating it both from threatening the British operations on most of the island but also protecting the port from being taken by the British in any real fast time frame.(1)

1) This brings it all back to the Germans. Does Hitler throw a tantrum and throw in the Luftwaffe? Even use Italian shipping to feed in German Army units to Sardinia? Only the OP knows whether the Italian merchant marine and navy even has the ability to project power now. But I would imagine they WOULD be able to do so, provided they came in from the north and were using Olbia as a base.

If Hitler does this, the British could find themselves caught up in a campaign that freezes up until American reinforcements (ground and air) arrive in 1943.:( That the initiative could, however temporarily, pass to the Germans in the Med is a frightening thought.
 
Likely they will carry on with the CVL until 1844
Wahay!!!!

That will really cause butterflies

So time is either like a donut and the British are going to keep building Majestic-class carriers for so long - keep building out of date designs for ages, sounds oh so familiar unfortunately - that eventually it'll roll back around to 1844, or this is some sort of weird Illig-esque phantom time hypothesis. Obviously this is just more blatant Brit-wanking by Astrodragon and yet another reason why this thread should be in the ASB forum. ;)
 

abc123

Banned
I believe they can, as the interesting thing about Sardinia is it has only one major port, Cagliari, all the way down in the extreme south of the island, Since the British are going to land there anyway, and there are no German forces on site, once the port is secured, the Italians have only two minor ports, Oristano and Olbia, with which the Italians can draw supply.

Note-Until the British can repair the damage done to Cagliari's port facilities the Italians will be able to reinforce Sardinia and supply there on-island forces. But there are no rails on Sardinia worthy of the name, meaning only the port of Oristano is in supply range of contesting British operations in and around Cagliari.

A large wide valley running between Cagliari and Oristano allows easy movement and local supply for the Italians, but the reverse is true for the British once Cagliari is operational as a major port again. That would, depending on circumstances, depend on how long it takes to finish repair efforts. 4-10 weeks? Once Cagliari is up and running, air superiority can be fully established over the rest of the northwestern Med, meaning the RAF can suppress the ports of Oristano and Olbia, effectively shutting down the Sardinian Campaign for good.:)

Olbia is behind a large amount of very heavy rough terrain, isolating it both from threatening the British operations on most of the island but also protecting the port from being taken by the British in any real fast time frame.(1)

1) This brings it all back to the Germans. Does Hitler throw a tantrum and throw in the Luftwaffe? Even use Italian shipping to feed in German Army units to Sardinia? Only the OP knows whether the Italian merchant marine and navy even has the ability to project power now. But I would imagine they WOULD be able to do so, provided they came in from the north and were using Olbia as a base.

If Hitler does this, the British could find themselves caught up in a campaign that freezes up until American reinforcements (ground and air) arrive in 1943.:( That the initiative could, however temporarily, pass to the Germans in the Med is a frightening thought.



Evrey month from now on Germans will have much more and more pressing things to do in the East, so I really doubt that Hitler can or want to send major forces in Sardinia. Especially wheen he saw what happened last time when he tried to help Italians in Tunisia.
Mediterranean never really intrested Hitler much.
;)
 
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Hand to God, I swear I did NOT rip him off. The phrase was my own, with only the "...but I repeat myself." part gleaned from a editorial writer (Cal Thomas, its one of his favorite phrases) in the US. Maybe HE ripped Twain off. I am not a student of Mark Twain, except for the classics.

Hey, not to worry, it's OK to modify a quotation. People quite Shakespeare all the time without realizing it. I believe that the original went something like: "Suppose you were an idiot, or a member of Congress (but I repeat myself)"

Regards

R
 
Actually there is an interesting point on will Hitler intervene?
In OTL, Germany had invested a lot of effort in NA, and obviously Hitler hated to be seen to lose.

In TTL, however, Germanies only contribution to the Med has been a small army unit (which promptly exited stage right), a specialises AS LW unit and some submarines.

Would he wash his hands of it until the allies were actually in Italy and heading north (at which point it obviously affects Germany)??
 
Actually there is an interesting point on will Hitler intervene?
In OTL, Germany had invested a lot of effort in NA, and obviously Hitler hated to be seen to lose.

In TTL, however, Germanies only contribution to the Med has been a small army unit (which promptly exited stage right), a specialises AS LW unit and some submarines.

Would he wash his hands of it until the allies were actually in Italy and heading north (at which point it obviously affects Germany)??

True, North Africa was a brief embarrassing interlude that cost Hitler one of his favourite generals. That and Crete might be seen to show that wherever the RN can intervene things go badly for the Germans so Sicily or any other island campaign might well be avoided; why commit troops who could wind up trapped if the Italians screw up again?
 
True, North Africa was a brief embarrassing interlude that cost Hitler one of his favourite generals. That and Crete might be seen to show that wherever the RN can intervene things go badly for the Germans so Sicily or any other island campaign might well be avoided; why commit troops who could wind up trapped if the Italians screw up again?

If anything I'd expect Hitler to try a trap / be his usual paranoid self by fortifying all the (frisian) islands + beaches where an landing could be undertaken relativly safely to sucker the RN into supporting an invasion well into the reach of several LW formations because all the other options are worse.

Now, I'm not saying he'd succeed at this, but the Channel Islands make a powerful case that Hitler is willing to waste material on remote, irrelevant chunks of rocks to make sure TEH ENEMAY doesn't get them. And he'd certainly like the idea of mousetrapping an invasion taskforce with a thousand stukas.
 
If anything I'd expect Hitler to try a trap / be his usual paranoid self by fortifying all the (frisian) islands + beaches where an landing could be undertaken relativly safely to sucker the RN into supporting an invasion well into the reach of several LW formations because all the other options are worse.

Now, I'm not saying he'd succeed at this, but the Channel Islands make a powerful case that Hitler is willing to waste material on remote, irrelevant chunks of rocks to make sure TEH ENEMAY doesn't get them. And he'd certainly like the idea of mousetrapping an invasion taskforce with a thousand stukas.

You know you really should use the sarcasm smilie when mentioning those islands...
 


March 20th

In Tokyo, The navy minister, Admiral Shimada says that in view of the Allies' "retaliation and hatred", Japan will no longer follow the recognized rules of sea warfare.

Ok this may be me being somewhat dim but what exactly did this mean in the eyes of the Japanese and what if any legal standing did it have exactly. Did they not expect any kind of fight back from the assembled allied forces in the Pacific Theatre?
 
You know you really should use the sarcasm smilie when mentioning those islands...

Why ? On these boards ? Whatever for ?

Ok this may be me being somewhat dim but what exactly did this mean in the eyes of the Japanese and what if any legal standing did it have exactly. Did they not expect any kind of fight back from the assembled allied forces in the Pacific Theatre?

I'd also like what sort of bullcrap they offered up as justification for and what actually happened...

Also, fight back ? why, the IJN is dominating (the bottom of the seas)
 
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