The Whale has Wings

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Postwar, MacArthur will have a poorer reputation (which he deserved), especially compared with the other allied commanders in the Pacific.

This might be the TL where the British actually get an occupation zone in Japan.

Turning to Europe, the shorter war there, if it happens, will lessen the Holocaust, meaning more Jews survive than OTL (many of those are likely to head to Palestine postwar, and provide a boost to the Jewish population there).

I would love to read the books about TTL World War II.
 
Astrodragon

Just to clarify. You mentioned Somerville was operating with two fleets, each having "CV, 1CVL and 2BB. However you also mentioned HMAS Brisbane would continue operating out of Darwin as if that was separate. Does that mean in total he has 3CVL? We know of the force north of Java from the update but what's in the other one.

The point of concern, apart from the fact that the escort force hasn't been located yet, is that the Japanese invasion force is being thought of by the allies as 'the full strength invasion force' which sounds like they think it may be the only one. However since its also referred to as the Eastern Invasion force I presume there is at least one more out there. Given the number of a/c and subs he has on side I expect any others will be detected before they get too close but there is the danger of the allies getting tunnel vision and missing it.

However overall I strongly suspect that you're right about Japanese hand, meet grinder and not just because you're writing the TL.:D:p However, I think for the allied reader its probably going to be very pretty indeed.;)

Given the diversion of L-L from the Persian route how much are the Soviets losing compared to OTL? I presume we diverted stuff OTL but think you did say that they would be down somewhat on what they used for their spring 42 offensives.

Steve
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
A note on the Dutch force on Java:

The Koninklijke Nederlandsch-Indisch Leger (KNIL, Royal Dutch-Indies Army) was before the war in Europe basically the best the Dutch had to offer. It had loads of battlefield experience though mostly in contra-guerilla situations. Atjeh (among a couple of other bush-war areas) was from the 1870s until at least the 1920s a battlefield almost every KNIL officer participated in. With the war in Europe and the looming Asian War the gouvernement-general in Batavis drafted the Dutch population of the DEI as well as a relatively large number of native recruits. This means the KNIL forces on the eve of the Dutch Indies Campaign was a mixed bunch. I think 15.000 of the 25.000 KNIL forces on Java were of the old KNIL. What really did them in OTL was the quick advance of the Japanese (which did a lot to hurt the morale of the KNIL (native and European) but especially the Javanese and Sumatrans) and the Japanese superiority in men, material en especially airplanes. This all changed ATL. The unreliable part of the KNIL will be a lot more dependable and the hard core a lot more effective. Some units will still break but a lot will fight to death.
 
HMAS Melbourne

Hi Astrodragon.
I have been following this story from the beginning and am really enjoying it.
Did I miss something with the HMAS Melbourne though, as you now have it coming out of dry dock for repairs after the battle it was involved in the South China Sea, yet it was recently involved in action during the 1st Battle of Timor Island? It was withdrawn south in that battle.
Great story though.
Cheers

March 19th
Good news for Somerville is that the light carrier HMAS Melbourne is finally out of dock after having been damaged underwater in the battle of the South China Sea. He intends to deploy two forces, one north and one south of Java, each having two fleet and one light carrier; his other light carrier, HMAS Brisbane, will remain working out of Darwin for the time being. .
 
The factors involved had nothing to do with "invasion dangers". After, the Nisei of Hawaii were untouched, right? And rest assured, if the Nisei had represented 1/4 of the population of California, as they did in Hawaii, THEY wouldn't have been touched either.
I suspect this is all too true. It isn't only dictatorships that find it politically expedient to target minorities.
It was about the money to be had by greedy speculators and evil politicians (but I repeat myself)

Paraphrasing Mark Twain

Regards

R
 
The B-17's carrying General MacArthur and his party arrive at Darwin. They will later fly on to the metropolis of Alice Springs on their way south. No official clarification is given on MacArthur's wound, though apparently the General was unable to sit during the journey south.

Oh, Mac's been shot in the elbow :D
(you'll need to think about that one)

Regards
R
 
I suspect this is all too true. It isn't only dictatorships that find it politically expedient to target minorities.


Paraphrasing Mark Twain

Regards

R

Hand to God, I swear I did NOT rip him off. The phrase was my own, with only the "...but I repeat myself." part gleaned from a editorial writer (Cal Thomas, its one of his favorite phrases) in the US. Maybe HE ripped Twain off. I am not a student of Mark Twain, except for the classics.
 
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Actually, at least some of the updates bring word from the Eastern Front, and the Soviets are getting Lend Lease Shermans aren't they?

Not NOW, they are not. They couldn't be getting them. AFAIK, even the US Army doesn't have many of the stopgap M-3 Grant's/Lee's yet, much less Shermans!
 
Is this OTL? Or just bluster on the part of the Japanese?

Considering Japan's history with the treatment of POW's, I'd say the operative word is not "bluster", but rather "bullshit". This merely puts a stamp of approval upon the treatment of prisoners by the Japanese since day 1. Including brutal summary executions committed not in the fury of battle, or even just in a battle zone, but in circumstances of complete security for the Japanese, where the executions were nothing less than cold blooded murder. Frex, the drowning of the captured Midway flyers.
 
March 19th

The RAF and the French Air force have been steadily attacking Italian targets over the last month. Targets have included the mainland, the island of Corsica and Sardinia, and especially the island of Sicily. The Italian high command has ordered additional troops to Sicily, which they consider a target for the allies. Meanwhile planning and preparation for an amphibious assault has reached a high degree of readiness; some 12 Imperial and French divisions (including two Armoured divisions) are available, although shipping will restrict the initial landing sizes.

The worry is does Britain have the shipping to support offensive operations in the Med while at the same time keeping Britain supplied with vitals to keep alive, and support forces where they are around the world PLUS fighting off the Japanese pretty much single-handed?:eek:

March 20th

Australian Prime Minister Menzies suffers a breakdown in Parliament. Doctors report that it is due to the stress of his job during the war, and while it is expected he will eventually make a full recovery, he will not be able to undertake any duties for at least three months. The Deputy Prime Minister, Curtiss, will take over the post of Prime Minister.

Hmm. OTL it was Curtin who suffered from neuritis. This could be interesting. I wouldn't normally nitpick about spelling, but can I assume that "Curtiss" is meant to be "Curtin"? I swear, outside of Oz and NZ (and to a degree the US) the poor man seems to get no respect.:(

Considering the UAP and Country Party Coalition at this time is so bereft of leadership (and would be for some years to come) Menzies may just find himself having some problems getting his old job back when he gets better. Between the backstabbing he's taking from Fadden's Country Party and his own members, plus the Labour Party, he might start thinking "Just who IS the Opposition around here?" Not to mention that the UAP is heading for it's death knell next year...:mad:

Frankly, in political squabbles going on in Canberra, I'd have to say that Curtin and his people would make mincemeat of the UAP/Country Party Coalition without Menzies being around.

Hmm. I hadn't considered this. No doubt politically Menzies has been playing the Little Dutch Boy since the previous year, when Australian politics hit a POD from OTL. No wonder he's burned out (and so disgusted with his "friends":rolleyes:).

March 21st

Lieutenant General George H. Brett, Commanding General of U.S. Army Forces in Australia, assumes command of all Allied air forces in Australia. This specifically excludes all FAA aircraft operating out of Australia, as well as RAF/RAAF aircraft under the navy's operational control.

Interesting. A good way to play the "Alamo Force Trick" in reverse, and just for air forces.


The size of this convoy (carrying the Japanese 48th Division) convinces Allied command that this is a full-strength invasion fleet aimed at Java. The Allies now have a considerable force on Java - about 25,000 Dutch and local troops,(1) two brigades of the 8th Australian division,(2) with 30 tanks attached from 1st Armoured in Malaya,(3) and the British 51st Division,(4) as well as about 1,000 US ground troops (5) and considerable numbers running and defending the airbases. The Dutch troops are of variable quality; their training was poor, but insistence by Alexander that this had to be improved has led to some improvements. The Dutch also have a force of US Stuart tanks available.(6)

1) Of various quality and (in the case of the locals) reliability.

2) Of various levels of training, some volunteers, some conscripts?:confused:

3) :):cool:

4) I know the 51st Division is a reconstituted division following it's loss in France, but they have had a year and a half to train prior to deployment. Any training in jungle warfare? Perhaps green, but together a long time. Or have they seen action ITTL?

5) Unless those guys are regulars straight from Oahu, I'd keep them far away from combat.:(:(

6) :)
 
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perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
The Tulip system, basically a pair of 60lb RP-3 rockets mounted either side of the turret, is an interesting idea. Whilst pretty much useless against other tanks or moving targets they were highly valued for their explosive power in attacking fixed positions. Pretty simple system all told, triggered electronically from inside by the commander, after testing out the initial missiles they realised that they needed then to be producing more thrust when launched to be at least somewhat accurate so rather than do anything fancy they simply made the wire that held the missiles in place after they'd been ignited thicker so it took a little longer to snap thanks to the increased thrust. Not sure how well it would of turned out for the tank if the missiles took a direct hit though.

"Reactive armour"? It could go well or badly, either way penetration would be poor.
 
Unless, I have missed a change - entirely possible with almost 400 pages - 8th Division, being AIF is all volunteer. Although, if Gordon Bennett is still in charge and still allows the friction between pre-war Permanent and Militia that he did (just about abetted in fact), there could still be trouble there.
 
Totally agree about the prospects for a chindit operation in Thailand.

Usertron asked about UK (allied) shipping resources.

Not sure but its gives me a chance to say this. The reduction in sinkings = around a full years UK merchie production OTL.

I think we have U Boat sinkings at 80% OTL and I think a lower ship repair rate, at least in UK yards due to lower levels of damage so possibly more new construction. There is also faster clearing of NA and shortening of routes to the Far East so less demand. All of these by the miracle of compound interest will magnify as time goes on. By EO 41 at these rates Britain has 1.170m GR ton more shipping than OTL and by EO 42 the reduction in losses would be 1.8m GRT (1940 losses being 2.05m GRT by way of example).

OTL UK launches in 40/41 were 1.85m GRT so the net position at eo 41 is +3m GRT or basically the equivalent of all losses for 1941

All available shipping (allied and neutral) would be a reduction of a around .9m GRT pa for 1941 and 42. The U boat war has net taken around 2m GRT out of the world vs

Its quite possible that the UK does have the shipping to maintain the SEA and a limited Med strategy on its own. With US shipping production coming online later in the year who knows.

For example at some points UK steel production was lowered because the shipping space for ore was used for meat imports. More ships that does not happen, therefore more steel therefore more ships.

A possible butterfly away of the MESC in favour of a more London/Delhi centric approach to Empire supply would lead to more expert administration at both ends. (why set up something to deal with a war in NA when there isn’t one).

Another one is Burmese rice.

Apparently (Collingham - The Taste of War) Burmese rice is a staple for Burma, India, Ceylon, South Africa, Fiji , Mauritius, Kenya, Gambia and Zanzibar. Holding on to that net saves either on a lot of shipping needed to replace that comparatively local trade. The other sources would be local cultivation or imports from ?US, River Plate countries/White Commonwealth. OTL.

Overall I think the pre war Empire trade network is likely to be much better preserved with two consequences.

There will still be a more exploitative approach to the colonies, aka more investment but without the OTL impoverishment of the peasantry, switching from cash crops to subsistence farming and more choice by the people as to whether they go to work in the mines, join the Army or farm daisies or trade Gambian cocoa for Argentine beef for Jamaican Bauxite etc. All of that means the cash position of the empire as a whole is better and the distortion of LL in Africa , only the rich - white - farmers could afford US dollar denominated machinery and supplies so benefited from the boom disproportionately. If there is more Sterling denominated more people can afford to invest. If there is more demand (and capacity or investment cash) more of that will be supplied either from UK or UK owned sources.

There is likely to be a broader enrichment of the African and islander populations (as there was in India) due to wartime investment and military service and probably a more educated and possibly cosmopolitan middle class post war. In some places - Kenya comes to mind that could be highly significant. That might speed up decolonisation but would also make it a much better experience all around.

And of course any Empire supply of the increasing US demand improves the empire dollar position which allows for ….
 

abc123

Banned
I wonder what is status of aircraft carrier production in UK at the moment?
Is Audacious class in production? How much of them? First is allready operational, when others will be?

Any plans for Malta class?
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
1) Of various quality and (in the case of the locals) reliability.

2) Of various levels of training, some volunteers, some conscripts?:confused:

I found the following stats on the composition of the KNIL in 1941. Note that this is for the whole DEI and not just Java.

- 1370 careerofficers
- 2410 reserveofficers
- 39.030 European and native (probably including African and Indo (mixed race)) non-coms and soldiers.
- 21.300 European conscripts (landstorm)
- 16.100 native reservists
- 4.700 native veterans
- 6.600 native volunteers
- 27.500 city and country guards (police)
- 2.200 volunteers (presumably European.

Of these the careerofficers and professional soldiers and non-coms were pretty reliable and battle-tested but lacking experience in conventional warfare and material. The Stuart tanks should help a lot in that regard.

The European conscripts were organized in separate units and though naturally loyal they were badly trained and organized.

The native reservists were a mixed bunch. Some were pretty bad and ran but there was also the Legiun Mangkunegaran which had been part of the Dutch OOB since the 18th century. The best in the bunch with a complement of 1600 men. Note that the reserve-corps were all light with infantry only.

The native veterans should be loyal but the average age could be very high. The rest of the list (especially the guards) are pretty much useless in terms of conventional war.
 
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