The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re the 8th Division, they were not conscripts or Militia. They were Australian Imperial Force (AIF), volunteers fot overseas service. Under Australian law at the time, the only permanent forces the Commonwealth Govt could maintain were artillery, instructional and some support. Everyone else was Militia which could only serve within Aust, territory. (This went back to Federation in order to make sure that London could'nt simply order Aussie troops wherever.) Thus a new seperate force, the AIF, had to be raised for o/s service.
The Milita were a mix of conscripts and volunteers and most not that well trained at this point.

So if I understand you correctly, Militia had volunteers and conscripts, and in the same units? AIUI, ITTL Militia units are allowed to deploy overseas. OTL, this occurred much later (near the end of 1942 IIRC) and only in campaigns in the relative vicinity of Australia, such as New Guinea and the DEI. Are conscripts and volunteers segregated? Or together in the same units? This sounds a lot like the US Army system.

When did a Militia Unit cease to be considered so, and a regular division instead, like the 6th and 7th?:confused:

Note-technically US Marines were all volunteer but it was not unusual for Marine noncoms to go to the army induction centers and grab the best of the bunch. Since these were hand-picked, and those who failed to make it through Parris Island went back to the Army, the US military got them regardless.
 
I'm afraid a certain amount of cut n paste of OTL stuff is pretty much a necessity. This is a part time thing for me, trying to research ALL of WW2 is simply impossible. So I spend the creative time on the new stuff (in particualr the RN stuff), and use the filler to flesh out the TL and show whats going on elsewhere.

I think perhaps you are being overoptimistic if you expect stories posted here to be perfect in detail. That is, after all, while published books have editors and proofreaders, and they still come with mistakes.

The key point is to be open, that's all. You have certainly been that. And mature enough to handle things if something DOES go wrong. [SIZE=-4]no, ad. battleships are not submersible. nevermind that silly movie![/size]

When a poster says: "I don't like this!", YOU, Astrodragon don't respond as if the poster had said "Your mother swims out to meet troop ships!":D:eek: Astrodragon, it's your maturity in the face of adversity that I admire most of all.:cool:
 
That is exactly what they are being tasked for (its already in the next update!). Only a few so far, but getting even a few in operation out of reserve in 3 months is very good going. On the US Coastal area their short range and poor AA arent such a problem.

Don't forget the US Civil Air Patrol!:cool::)
 
The USNs own ASW survey of 1945

noted that the available American ASW forces in North Atlantic comprised 173 Surface ships + 268 aircraft in Mid January 1942.


In April same ships but as many as 589 aircraft
(mostly Civil Airpatrol and therefore useless for anything except "black sky" ASW and untrained in that)

By Mid may only 60 more aircraft but 24 more ships ... only 24

FYI : in late may the the USN began running convoys with 5 escorts to ~ 25 ships
which is far better escort ratio than a USN committee had recommended as effective to King in February of five escorts to 40+ ships.

Its difficult to see any reason why convoys could not have been started as early as January
especially given RN escorted convoys started in Sep 39 with 112 ships and 45 escorts and a lot more traffic to protect.

Source: The naval War against Hitler: pp 256-259 by Donald Macintyre (himself a ASW Captain in the RN)

For a more detailed account of USN attitudes to convoys at all levels
see the middle section of "Really Not Required" by Colin Warwick
who captained one of several experienced ASW ships loaned to the USN in this period
 
Usertron, our military system ws quite confused at this point, which is partly the reason that post-war we raised the Royal Australian Regiment (infantry) for full-time service.
The theory was that the Militia was for home defence. The full-timers were for instruction, artillery (especially coast defence), because - of course - every enemy was going to give us time to prepare. (to give an idea of how ridiculous this was, when a Permanent infantry unit was raised to defend Darwin in the late '30's, they all officially Artillery!):rolleyes:
Pre WW1, there was a concern that if australia had full-time troops, London could just order them off. To prevent this all combat troops were Militia who by law could only operate in Australia. So, when an expeditionary force was needed in 1914, and then again in 1939 a completely seperate army had to be raised, hence the AIF.
Pre WW1, all male citizens had military obligatiuons which they discharged in the Militia. After the "war to end all wars", to save money, it became voluntary.
In 1939, some men joined the AIF, some were already in the Militia and for whatever reason stayed in it, some joined the militia to avoid question sas to why they had not enlisted and to avoid o/s service. Later in the war, when conscription was introduced, it was for Home service only, hence they were put into the Militia units.
AIUI, if a certain percentage of the unit volunteered, they could be taken into the AIF; not sure what it was though.
A truly wonderful way to fight a war:rolleyes:
 
Usertron, our military system ws quite confused at this point, which is partly the reason that post-war we raised the Royal Australian Regiment (infantry) for full-time service.
The theory was that the Militia was for home defence. The full-timers were for instruction, artillery (especially coast defence), because - of course - every enemy was going to give us time to prepare. (to give an idea of how ridiculous this was, when a Permanent infantry unit was raised to defend Darwin in the late '30's, they all officially Artillery!):rolleyes:
Pre WW1, there was a concern that if australia had full-time troops, London could just order them off. To prevent this all combat troops were Militia who by law could only operate in Australia. So, when an expeditionary force was needed in 1914, and then again in 1939 a completely seperate army had to be raised, hence the AIF.
Pre WW1, all male citizens had military obligatiuons which they discharged in the Militia. After the "war to end all wars", to save money, it became voluntary.
In 1939, some men joined the AIF, some were already in the Militia and for whatever reason stayed in it, some joined the militia to avoid question sas to why they had not enlisted and to avoid o/s service. Later in the war, when conscription was introduced, it was for Home service only, hence they were put into the Militia units.
AIUI, if a certain percentage of the unit volunteered, they could be taken into the AIF; not sure what it was though.
A truly wonderful way to fight a war:rolleyes:

I have a headache.:eek: It was always my understanding that OTL John Curtin, in a special Labour Party Conference,(1) demanded (and got) the agreement of his party membership to accept that the Defense Act be changed to allow conscripts to serve abroad in theaters deemed to be vital to the defense of Australia! This, over the ferocious objections of Eddie Ward and his like-minded comrades.(2)

1) I believe it was around the time of the battle of Gona and Buna.

2) If I am wrong about all this, please tell me.:eek:
 
Sorry for the headache, Usertron. It was quite a "system".
However, you are correct that Curtin did get the okay for Militia to serve outside Australian territory, and yes, it was a hell of a fight at the Conference to get it.
Hope that helps.
 
One thing about Mac you might have some of his financial dealing with the P.I. government come to light when he tries to get out some of his money, gold type, and it comes to light when a crate breaks open in Australia. This could be due to one of his subordinates, not him specifically doing it but just could make FDR and the U.S. Army high command decide that he might be more useful in a state side billet like head of training.

AFAIK, Mac bringing out gold is just a myth. Especially in view of the weight/space issues on the plane that actually flew him out.
 
. As I've said before, IITL, the day Bradley liberates Paris, and Stalin's crossing the Belarus/Polish frontier, will NOT be the day Monty takes Berlin.:D

QUOTE]

Now, ITTL it is quite unlikely Monty will take Berlin.

O'Connor, OTOH.....:D:D:D

Hmm, O'Connor and Patton in competition as they head towards Germany.....:D
 
It may me of interest to point out I haven't worked out how the war ends yet :)

Apart from the start (where it was necessary to have the raid on Wilhelmshaven), I tend to take things one campaign at a time, working out how the FAA affects things. For example in Norway, it was obvious it would help, but as I wrote it out it was also obvious it wasnt going to stop Norway fallnig without a major contrived event. But they couldnt actually do much more damage than they did in OTL, all they could do was sink some ships that were only incapacitated.

Similarly in NA, various bits built up butterflies (OK, Taranto was a pretty damn big butterfly..:) so major things (like the early fall of NA) followed.

In the Pacific, I have ideas of a couple of upcoming battles, but I'm letting the events drive themselves to some extent - not completely, but its one reason why Somerville and Alexander have been more cautious than they actually have needed to be; they are reacting to events and perceptions (and their own priorities) rather than to what the actual Japanese position is (its bad, and getting worse..:)
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
9066

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066

I don't think FDR is under the same pressure to defend the home coastline. The Pacific war is going better and he has done something about all the sinking ships on the east coast. If this still goes ahead, it might be used in a narrower way. To prevent lights on the coast, allow manoeuvres, beef up port security and to site coast watches rather than to intern US citizens with Japanese/Korean ancestry. Opposition from JE Hoover and Eleanor might prove just that bit more convincing.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Since the circumstances that generated the raids on St.Nazaire and Madagascar have changed, There are commandos and invasion forces free to pursue other goals...?

This might be in support of actions in SEA, but logistics limit the overall scale of force that can be employed from Singapore and Ceylon. Conversely, there are other theatres where too little pressure is being applied on the axis war effort.

http://www.uboat.net/technical/shipyards/
The main U-boat production centres are beyond the reach of raiding parties, so targeted bombing seems the best option (19 yards in 11 cities).

Air raids in Italy to suppress air cover might be leading somewhere...? It seems a bit of a leap from light raids in Norway and North Africa to a coastal invasion of the large islands (Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica). Perhaps this is diversionary or perhaps the allies try to bite off more than they are ready to chew.

Given the lack of US influence over the direction of the ETO, I'd expect the French to want to take Corsica and the Greeks to want to take the outer Greek islands. Each under an air umbrella that would initially rely on carrier borne fighters in addition to long range land based air until such time as local airbases can be established or captured and put to use.

June 1942 OTL
640px-Ww2_allied_axis_1942_jun.png

Things are looking a lot less 'black' (more 'blue').

640px-Ww2_allied_axis_1942_jun.png
 
Last edited:
this is a great thread, Astrodragon, even though I've only read the tip of the iceberg [341 pages = archive panic :)]

are their any artist impressions of the Sparrowhawk and Goshawk fighters in thread that you can point me too?
 
Since the circumstances that generated the raids on St.Nazaire and Madagascar have changed, There are commandos and invasion forces free to pursue other goals...?

This might be in support of actions in SEA, but logistics limit the overall scale of force that can be employed from Singapore and Ceylon. Conversely, there are other theatres where too little pressure is being applied on the axis war effort.


June 1942 OTL

Things are looking a lot less 'black' (more 'blue').

Borneo is only partly japanese, and i THINK youve got them advanced too far in indohina, but i could be wrong there.

Vichy french guiana, boy does that look wierd. On both maps.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top