The Whale has Wings

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Re Japanese tenacity?

That’s a good question. IJA forces were willing to retreat when ordered to do so but its going to take a high HQ (Army or better ) to order it and I can’t see that.



Tactically how aggressive will the IJA defence be? They are not at the ‘if we get out of the bunkers we will get mowed down by allied firepower stage’ yet so they may indulge in some very wasting local counterattacks. This is not the planned dig in and die situation of the pacific islands, not to say that isolated groups or rearguards wont but they will not have benefited from stockpiling ammo and food/water in a lot of fixed mutually supporting positions to make this as wearing as it was for the USMC.

Operationally they may have a problem in responding to any allied break in, which is pretty much guaranteed with the amount of armour/artillery the CW can deploy.

If they do try and retreat they are dead in short order. Where they are is probably the best defensive geography till Vietnam once out of the ‘rugged’ border regions they are walking in the face of motorized (or large parts of it can be) army which is not is good prospect across pretty open ground.

Astro did you mean Combined CoS proposing Mac- if so presumably the Brit half of it was laughing so hard they could not speak even to say ‘no’ or was the ‘you’re doolali mate’ mistranslated.

Does this mean Mac is the original man from Del Monte?
 
That’s a good question. IJA forces were willing to retreat when ordered to do so but its going to take a high HQ (Army or better ) to order it and I can’t see that.



Tactically how aggressive will the IJA defence be? They are not at the ‘if we get out of the bunkers we will get mowed down by allied firepower stage’ yet so they may indulge in some very wasting local counterattacks. This is not the planned dig in and die situation of the pacific islands, not to say that isolated groups or rearguards wont but they will not have benefited from stockpiling ammo and food/water in a lot of fixed mutually supporting positions to make this as wearing as it was for the USMC.

Operationally they may have a problem in responding to any allied break in, which is pretty much guaranteed with the amount of armour/artillery the CW can deploy.

If they do try and retreat they are dead in short order. Where they are is probably the best defensive geography till Vietnam once out of the ‘rugged’ border regions they are walking in the face of motorized (or large parts of it can be) army which is not is good prospect across pretty open ground.

Astro did you mean Combined CoS proposing Mac- if so presumably the Brit half of it was laughing so hard they could not speak even to say ‘no’ or was the ‘you’re doolali mate’ mistranslated.

Does this mean Mac is the original man from Del Monte?

Yes, the Combined CoS
The British of course are urbane and polite, and wouldn't have laughed out loud.
Probably just as well the Australians don't have a rep, though...:)
At the moment MacArthur seems to be mainly getting pushed by the American press, which isn't exactly likely to endear teh idea to the military...and he has enemies in the US too.

That is if he ever leaves DelMonte....:)
Takes a while to gold-plate a B-17....:) :)
 
The allies seem to have a lot of disdain for the US ITTL. It's not just the fact that the US military hasn't done much to earn the respect of the allies yet. Efforts to include the US so far have been phrased as "for political reasons." As in not military reasons. It seems like there might be an attitude within the Imperial camp to try and win the war on their own (and perhaps they can, given TTL's tech package and dogma.)

Or else AD is just having fun giving the US military a bit of a ribbing, which is fine and dandy. I'm just looking for clarification of what folks ITTL are thinking. Are they preparing to fight this war perpetually six months ahead of US preparedness?
 
The allies seem to have a lot of disdain for the US ITTL. It's not just the fact that the US military hasn't done much to earn the respect of the allies yet. Efforts to include the US so far have been phrased as "for political reasons." As in not military reasons. It seems like there might be an attitude within the Imperial camp to try and win the war on their own (and perhaps they can, given TTL's tech package and dogma.)
This is still very early in the war for America. They are nowhere near up to speed regarding production, manpower, equipment or training. As such, any American contribution will likely be included for political reasons, or to battle harden troops. When the US gets up to speed (and this will not take long), this will change. Any *D-Day and operations against the Japanese home islands will be run as an American show. American manpower will dominate, and an American will command. Then, Deputy Commanders will be Commonwealth, for 'political reasons'.

Or else AD is just having fun giving the US military a bit of a ribbing, which is fine and dandy. I'm just looking for clarification of what folks ITTL are thinking. Are they preparing to fight this war perpetually six months ahead of US preparedness?
Astro may be having a little bit of fun too, but America will not stay six months behind for very long...
 
I think Astro is having a lot of fun and if he is as sneaky as I think he is planning to be we may even see CalBear complaining that he is too mean to Mac.

Not to mention a major corporate issue.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor


RAF and USAAF reconnaissance planes are still showing a steady build-up of Japanese forces in the Celebes, as well as preparations in the SouthEast part of Borneo (the area under Japanese control), and an invasion of Java is now expected within two weeks. The Japanese are expected to use around two divisions, and Somerville is making plans to deny them the option of landing anywhere except on the eastern part of the island (he expects Japanese air cover too strong for surface forces to intervene east of Java).


With all the reinforcements the Allies still can't contest the airspace to allow interdiction around Java?


US and RN submarines are being redeployed to cover the expected invasion routes.

How many Dutch, British and American subs does that give us in the Java Sea? Could be a great mobile minefield! Talking about minefields I'd expect the RNN to plaster the approaches to East-Java with mines especially if the communication between Somerville and the forces on Java is clear :)

Also I assume that the death of G.J. Berenschot is butterflied away? Ter Poorten was not a bad commander but no match match for Berenschot who was much better in diplomacy as well.
 
You have to realise that the USA is doing (as it did in OTL) its normal 'we are the USA, it must be done our way', even though they really have no basis for the attitude. (Seriously not helped by the jingoistic US press, its true)

Granted the USA will be very strong in 1-2 years, but it isnt at the moment.

Look at what the Empire and its allies has done so far.

Destroyed the German surface fleet
Destroyed the Italian surface fleet
Sunk or driven back everything the IJN has sent its way
Contained the U-boats (with difficulty)
Is making heavy air raids on Germany, and is planning a campaign to reduce the Ruhr this spring
Has driven the Italians (and Germans) out of Africa, and is preparing major amphibious operations against Italian possessions very soon
Has held the Japanese army in its possessions, and is helping the rest of the allies to defend theres.
Places significant forces into the Far East, which currently are far greater than the US forces in the area (despite the buildups in the Med and at home)

Now what has the US army done? Mainly so far its been occupying tiny islands no-where near the Japanese (cruel but true)
The air force is only just getting squadrons into combat areas
The fleet is heavily active around the DEI, and is conducting raids. Its also been making a complete mess of U-boat defence.

Now to suggest a US General who just lost his command is the best person to control a theatre which is (at the moment) basically Imperial forces, and got the equivalent of the VC for, well, sitting on his ass, is it a surprise the British and Australians arent enthused?

The Americans had (pretty much throughout the war) an overconfidence in their own (or future) abilities at a strategic level. Fortunately the people at teh sharp end got along much better...
For a OTL example, look at Marshall's idea that the allies should invade Europe in 42 (with, basically, no US troops). You want to take part in the game and be taken seriously, you have to ante up the troops.

This WILL change, but not for a bit.
 
With all the reinforcements the Allies still can't contest the airspace to allow interdiction around Java?
.

I assume that's going to be something to do with where the bases and ground support are; most of the Brit airpower seems likely to still be in Malaya, so sustained operations east of Java might be a stretch.
 

Hyperion

Banned
You fucked up bigtime Astrodragon

So explain to me Astrodragon, if the USS Enterprise and Saratoga sank the Yubari off Wake, what the fuck was it doing off New Guinea.

That and where was the USS Ticonderoga. You had it with Lexington earliern and then it disappeared.
 
With all the reinforcements the Allies still can't contest the airspace to allow interdiction around Java?




How many Dutch, British and American subs does that give us in the Java Sea? Could be a great mobile minefield! Talking about minefields I'd expect the RNN to plaster the approaches to East-Java with mines especially if the communication between Somerville and the forces on Java is clear :)

[/FONT]Also I assume that the death of G.J. Berenschot is butterflied away? Ter Poorten was not a bad commander but no match match for Berenschot who was much better in diplomacy as well.

The allies expect to keep control over Java, but at some point east they get too far from their bases. Hence the carrier TF's

As the allies have clear access to Jave from the west, yes the east side will have been more hevily mined. AFAIK, though, they dont have a large number of minelayers, or have had time and suitable ships to convert (the British have laid minefields around the E coast of Malaya as well.

And the submarine commanders are looking at their watches pointedly and waiting for the IJN to come out to play...:)

Basically the allies know Japan has to take Java, the Japanese are still overconfident, and they've been setting up a big trap for them.
 
Other than Burma, did the WAllies ever launch a large-scale land campaign against the Japanese? The Kwantung Army was quickly chewed up by the Soviets, of course (I'm not sure why they didn't fight to the death, to be honest).

Yamashita should have launched another attack by now, he's going to be getting some really angry telegrams from Tokyo.... A disasterous Japanese attack, followed by a counteroffensive?
 
So explain to me Astrodragon, if the USS Enterprise and Saratoga sank the Yubari off Wake, what the fuck was it doing off New Guinea.

That and where was the USS Ticonderoga. You had it with Lexington earliern and then it disappeared.

The Yubari is a typo, sorry.

Ticonderoga is at PH for a little while, the USN is having enough issues with 2 carriers operating together, let alone trying for 3 in the face of the enemy. Note they didnt try this at OTL Midway either, multi-carrier ops are complicated. Even the IJN tended to operate in pairs, except for PH which was a special case. Midway was more two pairs than 4 carriers.
 
Other than Burma, did the WAllies ever launch a large-scale land campaign against the Japanese? The Kwantung Army was quickly chewed up by the Soviets, of course (I'm not sure why they didn't fight to the death, to be honest).

Yamashita should have launched another attack by now, he's going to be getting some really angry telegrams from Tokyo.... A disasterous Japanese attack, followed by a counteroffensive?

IIRC, Burma was the only one.

As to Yamashita...:)
Yes, hes getting nasty telegrams. He will be launching an offensive as soon as the Java invasion kicks off, the idea is to stretch the allies and allow a breakthrough (ideally two).
 

Hyperion

Banned
The Yubari is a typo, sorry.

Ticonderoga is at PH for a little while, the USN is having enough issues with 2 carriers operating together, let alone trying for 3 in the face of the enemy. Note they didnt try this at OTL Midway either, multi-carrier ops are complicated. Even the IJN tended to operate in pairs, except for PH which was a special case. Midway was more two pairs than 4 carriers.

With the Yubari already sunk, that raises minor issues. What if anything gets hit in her place. Something that a cruiser can survive, a lightly built transport might not. That or a destroyer might take a more crippling blow.

OTL the ship took quite a beating and got a lot of attention.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/yubari_t.htm

10 March 1942:
The anchored invasion task group is attacked by 90 aircraft from Rear Admiral (MOH/later Admiral) Frank J. Fletcher's (USNA ‘06) Task Force 17's USS YORKTOWN (CV-5) and LEXINGTON (CV-2). Fletcher's planes have flown from the Coral Sea over New Guinea's Owen Stanley mountains to make the attack. Armed merchant cruiser KONGO MARU, transport YOKOHAMA MARU and auxiliary minelayer TENYO MARU are sunk. Transport KOKAI MARU, minelayers TSUGARU and OKINOSHIMA, seaplane tender KIYOKAWA MARU, destroyers ASANAGI and YUNAGI and auxiliary minesweeper TAMA MARU No. 2 are damaged in the raid.


At the start of attack YUBARI patrols between Lae and Salamaua, later heading out for Huon Gulf. She is first attacked by two SBD-3 "Dauntless" dive-bombers from LEXINGTON’s VS-2, claiming one hit, but actually score several near misses to port while bomb fragments cut down several 13.2-mm AA machine-gun crews. YUBARI is next strafed by four F4F-3 fighters from VF-3, approaching from port bow. The XO, Cdr Tanaka Mitsuo and several bridge lookouts are killed.

After 0950 (local), YUBARI is attacked by SBD-3s from USS YORKTOWN’s VB-5. No. 2 turret ready-use powder bags detonate as a result of strafing, igniting the mattresses fitted to the bridge for anti-splinter protection. The next strafing attack from the bow direction ignites the port lifeboat gasoline drums stowage, resulting in a serious fire amidships. One 13.2-mm machine gun is disabled by strafing. Firefighting teams dump most of the burning drums overboard, but their hoses do not cover the entire danger area and the fire reaches the forward torpedo mount. The CO orders the torpedoes jettisoned, but the mount cannot be trained outboard as a result of a power failure. The rescue crews manage to rotate the mount manually and extract the torpedoes using a pulley. The reserve torpedoes are dumped in the same fashion.

In all, YUBARI evades 67 bombs and 12 torpedoes while receiving five near misses that cause splinter damage in 3,000 locations. A total of thirteen sailors are KIA and 49 wounded.


Overall, you've still got a good timeline, and the US even ITTL will still need a few months or more to really get rolling.

But then you do things like having an extra carrier earlier, introducing better aircraft slightly sooner, or otherwise changing the situation, such as eliminating the Yubari and an unnamed destroyer off Wake, then they don't trickle down later on.

It's like you aren't bothering to do proper research on other aspects of the timeline, or are almost simply copying straight from wiki, or something. I'm not saying you're doing a bad job overall, but inconsistencies like that do sort of make issues that could come back to bite later.
 
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I think Astro is having a lot of fun and if he is as sneaky as I think he is planning to be we may even see CalBear complaining that he is too mean to Mac.

Not to mention a major corporate issue.

Oh, you mean the idea I had to have them attacked by Japanese Paratroops and for Mac to escape into the jungle, where he stays for 25 years fighting a war he doesnt know is over armed only with a pocket knife? :D:D
 
You have to realise that the USA is doing (as it did in OTL) its normal 'we are the USA, it must be done our way', even though they really have no basis for the attitude. (Seriously not helped by the jingoistic US press, its true)

Granted the USA will be very strong in 1-2 years, but it isnt at the moment.

Look at what the Empire and its allies has done so far.

Destroyed the German surface fleet
Destroyed the Italian surface fleet
Sunk or driven back everything the IJN has sent its way
Contained the U-boats (with difficulty)
Is making heavy air raids on Germany, and is planning a campaign to reduce the Ruhr this spring
Has driven the Italians (and Germans) out of Africa, and is preparing major amphibious operations against Italian possessions very soon
Has held the Japanese army in its possessions, and is helping the rest of the allies to defend theres.
Places significant forces into the Far East, which currently are far greater than the US forces in the area (despite the buildups in the Med and at home)

Now what has the US army done? Mainly so far its been occupying tiny islands no-where near the Japanese (cruel but true)
The air force is only just getting squadrons into combat areas
The fleet is heavily active around the DEI, and is conducting raids. Its also been making a complete mess of U-boat defence.

Now to suggest a US General who just lost his command is the best person to control a theatre which is (at the moment) basically Imperial forces, and got the equivalent of the VC for, well, sitting on his ass, is it a surprise the British and Australians arent enthused?

The Americans had (pretty much throughout the war) an overconfidence in their own (or future) abilities at a strategic level. Fortunately the people at teh sharp end got along much better...
For a OTL example, look at Marshall's idea that the allies should invade Europe in 42 (with, basically, no US troops). You want to take part in the game and be taken seriously, you have to ante up the troops.

This WILL change, but not for a bit.

Agreed. I'm not suggesting the US military has done anything ITTL to deserve the deference it requests/demands. My questions were about Imperial intentions. It seems to me the Imperial allies are either annoyed at the US's mule attitude because the Imperials want/need US help, or they simply don't need to factor in US help at all and are vocally dismissive of American "efforts." The current attitude comes across (to me at least) as more dismissive than goading.

Either one is fine, and I think it would actually be a much more interesting TL if they could pull it off without US ballast, but it also seems...less likely.:eek:
 
Agreed. I'm not suggesting the US military has done anything ITTL to deserve the deference it requests/demands. My questions were about Imperial intentions. It seems to me the Imperial allies are either annoyed at the US's mule attitude because the Imperials want/need US help, or they simply don't need to factor in US help at all and are vocally dismissive of American "efforts." The current attitude comes across (to me at least) as more dismissive than goading.

Either one is fine, and I think it would actually be a much more interesting TL if they could pull it off without US ballast, but it also seems...less likely.:eek:

Its a bit complicated for the Empire
They want and need effective US help.
They have found that they work pretty well with the guys at the 'sharp end', and with many of the liason officers both sides have been exchanging so far.

the problem is with the (sadly many) inefficient US senior officers stuck in the past, with a sense of entitlement. Now the British had these guys too - but after 3 years of war darwinian selection has either removed them or shunted them off somewhere harmless. This winnowing has yet to take place in the US forces. It will, it did in OTL, but until it does, they have to be cunning, and keep it to themselves what they think of certain officers.
MacArthur has been pushed in their faces (mainly by the press), so they are trying (quietly) to get him sidelined.

(and if you think King and MacArthur caused problems, go look up what the US war transport people did with allocations of shipping.....:mad::mad:)
 
Oh, you mean the idea I had to have them attacked by Japanese Paratroops and for Mac to escape into the jungle, where he stays for 25 years fighting a war he doesnt know is over armed only with a pocket knife? :D:D

sounds like a spoof movie leslie nielsen (or charlie sheen) could have made ;)
 
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