The Western Roman Empire in Exile

Was not york at this point more important than london in this tkme period
Not really, Londinium was the de-facto capital of the Romans in Britannia. However, it is true that once the Romans left, Eboracum (York) would become much more important. In this timeline though, the Romans never really leave, and they are better at Romanising Britannia even before Stilicho and Honorius move to the province. This means that Londinium is still a much more important city throughout the Late Antiquity Period.
 
New POD
Instead of Stilicho founding this successor state, what if the POD was much later, in 407. Constantine III fails to invade Gaul due to poor weather conditions in the English Channel and is forced to stay in Britannia. He would have access to an army of 120 thousand including families. This is enough to control the province if managed correctly, assuming relatively peaceful relationships with tribes. However, his main problems would be the declining economy (although this could be revived with a continuation of coin minting) and troop loyalty. Before his nomination, the army had nominated two other leaders and killed them for failing to act to prevent the barbarian crossing into Gaul in 406/7. If Constantine managed to provide a sense of security to the Roman army and their families in Britain, maybe by making treaties with tribes in the north and refortifying Hadrian’s Wall, would he still face likely assassination from them if he did not invade the mainland western empire?
 
Even if Constantine 3 is successful in holding Britain and avoiding a knife in his back/throat, he won't be seen as a legitimate emperor by most anyone. Inclimate weather may delay, but he'll go to the continent eventually, if only to be made an official emperor by Honorius
 
Even if Constantine 3 is successful in holding Britain and avoiding a knife in his back/throat, he won't be seen as a legitimate emperor by most anyone. Inclimate weather may delay, but he'll go to the continent eventually, if only to be made an official emperor by Honorius
Surely he would be seen as an official emperor by his men at least? Is it possible that if the delay and further rebellions meant that the Western Roman Empire had now begun to deteriorate further and the area he controlled (the south of Britannia) was more stable than the Empire mainland which now faced barbarian invasions and Alaric, and so his men did not wish to invade Europe?

I know there isn't many sources about Constantine 3's personality so we can't really tell what his aims were (power, legacy, wealth, legitimacy.) but I think a timeline with the same idea as my first idea would be interesting, especially if Constantine tried to emulate the original Constantine by renaming London into Constantinople and trying to convert the island, basically in an attempt to recreate the glory days of the Roman Empire on the island. (Which obviously wont work in the long run).
 
In "The Discovery of King Arthur," by Geoffrey Ashe, he says one of the big What Ifs is if a combination of the British under Ambrosius and the Generals Aegidus and Syragius (along with their Burgundian and Breton allies) had managed to defeat Euric and the Spanish Visigoths. Treachery ultimately defeated the endeavor, but it could have been a near thing.

Obviously, your timeline is a little different, but it seems to end in the same place AND with stronger Britons. If the Britons were adventuring OTL, they certainly could ITTL -- and to better end.

So, late 5th Century, there is a British/Gaulish Roman state instead of a Frankish state.
 
This is actually pretty interesting. Having recently done a long form essay on this, I will offer some advice to OP. Britain in the WRE is interesting due to its habit of habitually throwing up pretenders, more so than any other part of the empire. This is likely due to the relative isolation of Britain. Thus it seems to me that several conditions could give rise to this:
  1. Sygarius, retreats across the Channel, taking his army with him, for some context the Domain does appear to be little more than a vague territory with an army attached to it, which depending on the situation could get invited into Britain, where they don't have the Franks breathing down their necks.
  2. Magnus Maximus is more successful, and or Theodosius sets up a Triumvirate, with him in charge of Britain and Gaul. He/His successors subsequently retreat to Britain after the rise of the Vandals, and or Franks.
  3. Constantine III, moves into Gaul and upon becoming Co-Emperor, keeps his troops on the border, or remains in Britain, or is forced back into Britain.
Realistically the most basic condition is that some kind of army or section of the army needs to retreat to Britain.
 
This is actually pretty interesting. Having recently done a long form essay on this, I will offer some advice to OP. Britain in the WRE is interesting due to its habit of habitually throwing up pretenders, more so than any other part of the empire. This is likely due to the relative isolation of Britain. Thus it seems to me that several conditions could give rise to this:
  1. Sygarius, retreats across the Channel, taking his army with him, for some context the Domain does appear to be little more than a vague territory with an army attached to it, which depending on the situation could get invited into Britain, where they don't have the Franks breathing down their necks.
  2. Magnus Maximus is more successful, and or Theodosius sets up a Triumvirate, with him in charge of Britain and Gaul. He/His successors subsequently retreat to Britain after the rise of the Vandals, and or Franks.
  3. Constantine III, moves into Gaul and upon becoming Co-Emperor, keeps his troops on the border, or remains in Britain, or is forced back into Britain.
Realistically the most basic condition is that some kind of army or section of the army needs to retreat to Britain.
These are really good points, thank you very much! I'll definitely take them on board
 

Kaze

Banned
[QUOTE
  1. Magnus Maximus is more successful, and or Theodosius sets up a Triumvirate, with him in charge of Britain and Gaul. He/His successors subsequently retreat to Britain after the rise of the Vandals, and or Franks.
  2. Constantine III, moves into Gaul and upon becoming Co-Emperor, keeps his troops on the border, or remains in Britain, or is forced back into Britain.[/QUOTE]
According to some Uthur Pendragon was a son of either Magnus Maximius or Constaintine III.

Uthur Pendragon's son Arthur came to wear purple until he had several misfortunes - one of them was defeating Huiel (Gildas' brother) battle, Arthur pardoned said brother, Mordred is found is found playing hide-sausage with Hueil and Gildas's sister (Cywyllog), Hueil turned bandit, Arthur defeated Hueil and executed him, afterwards Gildas burned all his books concerning the reigns of Uthur and Arthur, some time later Mordred turns on Arthur and bad things happen, and Gildas took exile in Brittany writing bad excommunications of Arthur's successors.
 
[QUOTE
  1. Magnus Maximus is more successful, and or Theodosius sets up a Triumvirate, with him in charge of Britain and Gaul. He/His successors subsequently retreat to Britain after the rise of the Vandals, and or Franks.
  2. Constantine III, moves into Gaul and upon becoming Co-Emperor, keeps his troops on the border, or remains in Britain, or is forced back into Britain.
According to some Uthur Pendragon was a son of either Magnus Maximius or Constaintine III.

Uthur Pendragon's son Arthur came to wear purple until he had several misfortunes - one of them was defeating Huiel (Gildas' brother) battle, Arthur pardoned said brother, Mordred is found is found playing hide-sausage with Hueil and Gildas's sister (Cywyllog), Hueil turned bandit, Arthur defeated Hueil and executed him, afterwards Gildas burned all his books concerning the reigns of Uthur and Arthur, some time later Mordred turns on Arthur and bad things happen, and Gildas took exile in Brittany writing bad excommunications of Arthur's successors.[/QUOTE]

This is interesting! Arthur is said to have been alive around the late 5th and early 6th century, which could maybe, by a stretch, work if Constantine III lived a bit longer to have Uther, who lived for a long period of time (50 years or so) before Arthur.

What if Constantine had retreated to Britain after invading Gaul, and kept the self-declared title of Emperor alongside his army at his army's maximum extent?

I've tried researching this, but would troops from Gaul refuse to live on Britannia, away from their home? I understand that often families of soldiers would be close by, but I don't think this was the case with Constantine due to it being more of an organised rebellion than a legitimate army, so I'm wondering if Constantine would have been able to move these soldiers from Gaul to Britain permanently without facing another rebellion. British-Roman soldiers obviously did care about Gaul to an extent, because it's invasion by Franks/Vandals was what caused them to elect Constantine in the first place. Furthermore, Constantine III wasn't the soldiers first choice either, but in fact came after the soldiers straight up murdered the last leader because they didn't think he was competent, so if he began to retreat, he's going to need to convince the soldiers that he is not losing the war.

I'll try to iron out these sort of things, but I think the Constantine III idea is what I'm going to go for as a POD, due to it being later, meaning there will be fewer butterflies regarding the fall of the WRE and the survival of the post-Roman kingdoms and the ERE. Thanks for the suggestions!
 
History - 407AD
HISTORY - 407AD
Point of Divergence and Constantine's rule of Britannia

The year is 407AD. Britannia, the northernmost province of the divided Empire of Rome, faces collapse.

In absence of the garrison stationed in the North and West of the island have been withdrawn to face Alaric, barbarian tribes from Hibernia, Caledonia and the North remain uncontested. In the South, Saxons raid the grand villas of the Roman elite, once enriched by the trade from the islands great metropolis’s: Londinium [London], Camuledunum [Colchester] and Eboracum [York]. Roman money minting has halted in its entirety.

In Gaul, large tribes of Vandals, Burgundians, Alans, and Sueves crossed the Rhenus [Rhine], overwhelming Roman defenses and threatening the collapse of the Empire. The provinces of Britannia, facing separation from the mainland, revolt. Desperate for a sense of security, the Roman armies stationed in Prima elected a common soldier of significant ability for leader, named after the famed fourth-century emperor, Constantine.

Constantine the Great had arisen by military coup originating in Britain in 306AD. To follow his footsteps, Constantine III would cross to the continent with the remaining army of fewer than 125,000 men and their families, including dependents.

[POD] The crossing was a disaster.

The Roman forces met at Portus Dubrae [Dover]. Only half of the Roman army would follow Constantine out of port. The ships didn’t make it halfway before a terrible storm diverted their course. The leader found himself washed ashore at a farm near Anderida [near Folkestone]. The 30,000-remaining led by Iustinianus and Nebiogastes, appointed magistri militum by the would-be usurper, would begin to enact strict discipline for his army while Constantine lay recovering. His recovery would be slow, and his wake would be greeted with betrayal. Nebiogastes had seized control of a small army after murdering his wife and his son, Constans (whom Constantine had placed in charge of Britannia) and departed west with 15,000 men who had declared him emperor.

Constantine led his remaining army west, following the traitor to Venta Belgarum [Winchester]. The Battle would be a short and bloody victory for Constantine, who had surrounded Nebiogastes with the promise that any traitorous soldier would be allowed to re-join his ranks to be spared if they chose to fight for him. Constantine established himself in Londinium, a city of 60,000, with nowhere near enough men to pose a threat to the boy Honorius on the throne in Italia, but safe in the knowledge that, for now, he would not be pursued by legion while the emperor faced annihilation by Alaric’s Visigoths.

Constantine would rebuild and reorganize his army until early 408, controlling land in the south of the Empires former frontier. In the North East, a Roman army matching the size of that loyal to him under the rule of a former aristocrat, Julius. Constantine knew he had to act to unite the Roman armies and usurp Honorious. Before his nomination, he and his fellow troops had killed their leaders for failing to act against the barbarian crossing of the Rhenus into the Empire.

Iustinianus knew that Julius would retreat to the natural marshlands in the north once the base of his rebellion, Camulodunon, fell to Constantine. Combatting this, he led a division of 2,000 men to secure the marshes. Half of those would march north and join a smaller division of soldiers in Maxima Caesariensis [Yorkshire] and prevent a revolt from the Brigantes.

Constantine led an army towards Camulodunon and took the city without much resistance. Julius retreated north and met Iustinianus’ division and were slaughtered at the Battle of Camboricum. Constantine had established control over the south of Britannia.

Yet the would-be usurper would not yet cross the Oceanus Britannicus [English Channel]. News soon reaches the leader in Londinium, Saxons have seized the opportunity arisen by the chaos of Britannia, invading the undefended shores of Metaris Aest [the Wash] and pushing south. The Roman garrison at Durobrivae [Castor] is defeated, leaving few towns in defense of Londinium.

As the last act to retain power, in 411 Constantine calls for magistrates to surrender wealth to him or have it lost to an overwhelming Saxon force. With this, combined with conscription for those within the city, creates enough resistance to drive Saxons north. Constantine declares the construction of forts along the undefended shores. With lack of men to invade Gaul, this act signals the leader's decision to consolidate power on the island, to retain the Roman culture of the territory still in his possession.

By 412, the Roman Empire had lost Hispania and much of Gaul. Honorius remained on the throne. Constantine is in control of 10,000 British and Roman soldiers. While chaos in the northern regions of Britannia remains, for the time being, the relative stability of the south creates no appetite for a return to the chaotic continent.


Britannia - 412AD.png
 
Without Constantine stripping Hispania of her legions and leaving the Pyrenees undefended, Hispania wouldn't have fallen to barbarians.
 
Without Constantine stripping Hispania of her legions and leaving the Pyrenees undefended, Hispania wouldn't have fallen to barbarians.
Hispania wasn't the priority for Honorius either. If Constantine hadn't stripped Hispania's legions, he certainly would have as barbarians invaded Gaul pushed closer towards Italia.
 
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