Why would Stilicho of all people move the court to Britain? Until 407, the western roman empire still had the entirety of its territory, with only allied Franks settled along the Rhine frontier. There is no reason for him to move the court, anymore than any of his predecessors. The empire isn't falling apart until after Stilicho's assassination.
The Western Roman Empire in Exile
- Thread starter procrastinating2much
- Start date
The WRE still had its territory, but the Gothic War caused a significant amount of instability and threatened to destroy both the WRE and the ERE. Stilicho did recognise the fall of the Empire, he was appointed guardian of Honorius by Justinian because Justinian saw that the Empire faced imminent collapse. The Empire was falling apart in terms of stability, as evidenced by the Gildonic War in 398 in OTL, in which Stilicho had very very few reserves left. This would be even less in TTL as previous Emperors favoured Britannia as a more developed continent and sent more legion to it. He, as a competent military general, most likely knew the Empire in the Mediterranean was over.
Not really. The Goths caused significant destruction in the east at this time, and were causing trouble there, but they never were anywhere close to destroying the empire, especially during the life of Stilicho.
What?
The empire was in no way falling apart in 398. The Gothic War at that time was confined to the Balkans, and was primarily an isolated problem for the eastern empire. The one time Alaric invaded Italy he was soundly defeated, and then turned into a strong ally of Stilicho.
There was nothing to suggest the empire was facing a serious existential crisis during Stilicho's lifetime, mostly because it wasn't.
The Goths sacked Rome in 410, only two years after the death of Stilicho. I get that it wasn't the capital, but it was the cultural centre, "eternal city" etc. Stilicho had very few reserves and was extremely stretched thin, even compared to previous late emperors. The peace that came after the invasion of Italy wasn't really one that benefited Rome, with the Senate (not sure who haha) saying something like "This is not peace, but a pact of servitude." I think by the late 4th century and the early 5th until the actual fall of Rome, the Empire was really on it's last legs, making desperate peace with the Goths and the Franks.
Anyway, the move is not to say that the WRE in Europe fell immediately after. It would survive in Europe until it's eventual collapse not far off it's fall in OTL. In all honesty, the move to Britannia (which is kind of what this whole TL is built upon haha) can really take place at any point during the collapse of the WRE, do you think it's more likely this would happen at a different point? I chose 398 because I figured it would take someone like Stilicho to decide to make the move and would have the incentive to do it, with politics threatening his life and all.
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Similar to how the ERE was named the Byzantine Empire to distinguish it from its previous state, what would this WRE in only Britannia be called?
I had a few ideas:
I had a few ideas:
- Londinium Empire (Byzantine was based on their capital city, formerly named Byzantium)
- Romano-Celtic Empire
- Britannia Empire
- Empire of Superior and Inferior
Probably just Britannia unless they grab a lot of land outside there and move their capital. The only other one that might make sense is Romano-Celtic Empire, which it might be named in historiography/literature if it takes a lot of land in France or wherever. If it's reduced to basically a city state in Londonium for much of its existence, it might make sense to call it the Londinian EMpire.
They'd need to feel like holding Italy and Africa is completely impossible, due to being cornered by barbarians at sea and land. So probably sometime after 410. If the Vandals cross into Africa earlier, that might plausibly convince them, especially if they grab Hippo Regius.
They'd need to feel like holding Italy and Africa is completely impossible, due to being cornered by barbarians at sea and land. So probably sometime after 410. If the Vandals cross into Africa earlier, that might plausibly convince them, especially if they grab Hippo Regius.
So do you guys mean a United Kingdom including Ireland under Roman rule would happen?
What if the Roman Empire faced an invasion from the Vandals much earlier, say in 405, due to the number of soldiers sent to Britain which was prioritised instead of Africa due to its higher amount of Romanisation. Stilicho moves to Britain just in time to dodge his assassination, so in 408?
The key thing here is after the death of Stilicho. The political situation in Rome deteriorated rapidly after Stilicho's death for reasons that only surfaced immediately prior to his death, with the crossing of the Rhine in 407 and the march on Gaul by Constantine III. However it should be seen far more like a civil war than a foreign invasion, as Alaric had been promised the job of magister militum.
Manpower was a problem, but it wasn't an existential threat, and Stilicho was working on methods to remedy that. Something that definitely won't remedy that problem is just up and abandoning the whole empire for Britain.
In any case, if Stilicho tried that, Stilicho would be dead before he could leave Milan.
Of course some senators said that, the senatorial elite was generally opposed to Stilicho, and Stilicho had just asked them for money. However, look closer and it was incredibly advantageous. He had neutralized Alaric as a threat to himself, and had basically brought the Goths into the imperial hierarchy. Alaric became a Stilicho ally, and Stilicho was to use him as effectively another Roman army to help invade and seize the rest of the Illyricum Prefecture from the east, which conveniently was also prime recruiting ground.
The emprie was hardly on its last legs in the late 4th century, this is ridiculous hyperbole that undermines the very real rapid collapse that the empire underwent post 420 (or, I'll grant you at least since the death of Stilicho, but even then it looked like the anarchy that pervaded in the years after his death would be something that would be passed over, until Constantius III's sudden death).
You can absolutely have a Roman successor state emerging in Britannia, especially if you try and Romanize Britain a bit more, as you're. I'm just saying that it's going to be more like the Domain of Soissons, than a Roman emperor evacuating Italy for Britain. Basically, the best way to achieve what (if I understand correctly) you want is to have a Roman governor in Britain keep a Romano-British successor state going as the rest of the empire collapses. And for that the time you're focusing on is perfect-just before Constantine III basically strips the island of Roman soldiers and more or less seals its eventual fate.
At the time I believe a common name for the ERE in the Middle Ages was the Greek Empire, so Britannian Empire or British Empire or something like that might work
Yeah, I did a bit of research and it does look like the Roman Empire had no reason to move, the Empire seemed to face its collapse after Stilicho's death.
However, what if instead Stilicho was forced to move and declare a Roman successor state in Britannia due to politics which threatened his assassination? This would mean he would declare his government in Britannia the true government of the Roman Empire, even though the WRE in Rome left behind would remain the true de-facto government until it's fall which matches OTL. He had a huge amount of sway over Honorius, so he could have brought him with him. Britain would be De-Jure part of the Roman Empire, but De-Facto an independent state. When the government in Rome falls, it would be the most legitimate Western Empire, and the Eastern Empire could recognise it as the WRE.
And so, the Britannic Empire remains a seperate unreconised WRE until say 480AD, when it is reconised as the true WRE by the East, due to their being no remaining Empire in Europe anymore.
Boneheaded things have happened in history, and a Roman leader prioritising a fringe province over one of the most important provinces in the empire plus its breadbasket which also had a significant amount of Romanisation would definitely be one of them. He'd piss off a lot of powerful people, who'd lend their support to a usurper (maybe Heraclianus?), who'd be in control in Africa and probably Italy. Sure, he'd have to face the Vandals (who it should be noted were not even in Spain yet and mostly in Germania still), but even Gaiseric didn't take Carthage on the first go. But if there's someone calling himself the emperor in the west hanging out in Britain, neither this usurper nor the Eastern Roman Emperor will likely be able to do much to stop him. If Africa still falls, the emperor in Britain probably has a better chance at long term survival.
The Vandals (or someone) would also need to be threatening by sea too, because if Carthage is unavailable, the Romans would evacuate to Sicily.
The Wantsum Channel no longer exists in our timeline, but for Britannia, it was a route for the most important trade from Londinium to Gaul and the rest of the Empire. It’s bustling port in was used to having military triremes move between it, but in July 398, a massive fleet of 700 men docked at Ruculbium, and began unloading.
Rufinus in the Eastern half of the slowly declining Empire would not hear about the charismatic general retreat from Roma until he had arrived. Having already been looking for ways to remove this thorn in his side from office, Julius Caesar-style, he would initially be relieved when an adviser told him he was out of the picture. This would turn to rage, when his adviser mentioned the departure of Honorius, boy Emperor of the West, he immediately ordered for talks with those loyal to him in the Western senate to arrange for his arrest.
The general had been new to court politics, but Alaric’s raids on Thracia and his escape in Macedonia had already told him that Rufinus was not to be trusted. The province on the outskirts of the Empire provided Stilicho with a convenient escape from court politics. Londinium was in awe when his cart with him and the Emperor arrived and walked towards the governor’s district, escorted by Catuvellauni spearmen marching alongside Roman Legion. Since his sudden arrival was unannounced the governor of Britannia Superior was shocked, especially as Stilicho waved two British soldiers towards him and he was dragged out of his office.
Honorius first decree issued from Britannia, with consent of his guardian, was to close all docks immediately. Trade stopped, and political unrest began to spark. But from military experience, Honorius knew that unrest was not as deadly as a dagger to the back.
The governor of Africa, Heraclianus (Stilicho’s assassination and Honorius’s usurper in our universe), was placed in Rome by Rufinus as the successor to the boy emperor. Seizing the opportunity to invade early, Alaric laid siege to Mediolanum. The capital would fall without a competent general in charge, and although Heraclianus would flee the city in time, the Roman armies he controlled would be utterly crushed on Easter Sunday in 402 at the Battle of Pollentia. Forced to give into Visigoth demands, the du-jure Emperor (in the eyes of the East) handed over the title of Magister Militum to the Dacian King, alongside rations of food. The Western Roman Empire would remain in control of Alaric for the time being, a situation Rufinus did not fully object to.
Meanwhile, in Britannia, Stilicho would not see much conflict with Romans from Europe. A single province on the outside of the Empire, however economically powerful, would not be worth an invasion. For all the Londinium government would be concerned, they were the true Roman Empire. The governor of Britannia Inferior, Claudius Julius, would not object, partly out of respect for who he believed was the legitimate emperor of Rome, partly out of fear of meeting the same fate as the governor of the Superior.
The Roman Empire, for all living on the island, now consisted of two provinces. One, Britannia Superior, a bustling province with loyal tribal auxiliaries and legionnaires taken from Europe. The other, Britannia Inferior, a rural land of tribes opposed to the Empires occupation of their land, supressed brutally by new government of Londinium.
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Reminds me a lot of my own timeline!
I have to say that you are already one of the best mapmakers on this site!
I have to say that you are already one of the best mapmakers on this site!
Considering the fact that Britannia is a mix of Roman and Celtic-British culture, I'm hoping to incorporate him in some way, just not sure how much!
So do you mean the Western Roman empire would break apart to barbarian states and three successor states: Britiannia, Soissons and Ravenna/Rome? They appeared like Macedonian Diadochi...
Well according to Gildas his parents "wore the purple", which could mean a number of things, but the two most likely (imo) are a family history of service as military tribunes, or that his parents were consuls/consular ranked governors. In OTL the governors of Valentia and Maxima Caesariensis had that rank, so perhaps the next governor of Britannia Inferior ought to be Ambrosius' father, and then Ambrosius can get involved with courtlife, perhaps becoming close friends with the next emperor? Idk, it's all up to you
Nah, basically Britannia would declare itself the legitimate Western Roman Empire, and the actual Roman Empire based in Rome would survive as normal (without Britannia of course). The Roman Empire based in Rome would collapse a similar way to our OTL, with barbarian kingdoms such as the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals and the Franks taking it's place, whereas the Roman Empire in Britannia would continue on, separated from Europe.