Actually, the proportion of barbatians is debated, though ive read barbarians only ever made up about a fourth of the army at most
The Western Roman Empire in Exile
- Thread starter procrastinating2much
- Start date
Actually, the proportion of barbatians is debated, though ive read barbarians only ever made up about a fourth of the army at most
Many of the tribes in Britain were making deals with Rome in OTL anyway. Sure, it's unlikely that tribes such as the Brigantes would stay loyal and stop being a thorn in Rome's side, but most of the tribes that revolted against Rome in OTL were in Britannia Inferior. If the south was Romanised to the point where tribes such as the Iceni and the Catuvellauni saw themselves as Romans, then perhaps they would be more likely to defend the empire than overthrow it. Even more so if Britain had become economically significant under the Empire in Exile.
That's true, it is debatable because the Late Roman Empire didn't keep nearly as many records as it did at its height, and many of the legions in provinces in Italy, Africa, and Iberia were mostly Roman. I think in the northern provinces though, barbarians did make up a significant amount of the Roman army.
But it was the accepted thing that anyone claiming the purple had to march on Rome. Probably the reason why the first two usurpers of 407, Marcus and Gratian, were assassinated. With this example, Constantine III decided to cross the Channel. Carausius shows that there could have been an alternative, but Magnus Maximus would probably have had more forces and a better chance of imitating him than the three in 407. Though would a guy who called himself ‘Great Greatest’ (or ‘Big Biggest’) have settled for just Britannia rather than trying to ’wank very highly in Wome’.
Assuming that the migrations period is similar to OTL, the Vandals could well have taken it before the fall. A falling empire probably lacks the capability to launch an amphibious assault to retake it, as the Romans learned IOTL at Cap Bon.
Julius Nepos ruled from there for a few years after Odoacer officially dethroned Augustulus. Nepos wasn't recognized as emperor anymore, so I'd suspect any attempt at a WRE in exile there would end up answering to Constantinople rather than being a theoretically equal empire.
This is an interesting premise. It would be pretty interesting if there ends up being an alliance or even union between Soissons and the exiled empire. I'm also not convinced that this Britain would remain unravaged by the Germanics. They might be able to repel them, but I don't think it would dissuade the Angles and Saxons from invading altogether. The empire in exile could actually use that to its advantage, acting as a unifying force for the bickering Romano-Celtic kingdoms/tribes. IOTL the Celts failed to keep out the Anglo-Saxons partly because they were divided and infighting, so a figure of power to unite them could both protect Britain and lend legitimacy to the empire in exile.
There are some interesting routes this could take. Consider me subscribed!
In that case,getting to Britain would have been a huge problem.Northern Gaul was often under the threat of being cut off from the rest of the empire.
As for Nepos,he continued to be recognized as emperor by the ERE and everyone else.He just wasn't recognised obviously by the people who usurped his throne.
Yeah, it might make more sense if this was less planned. Maybe have them set up in Gaul first, and then when Gaul is overrun they go to Britain. Or the empire could just be a Soissons style holdout rather than being ruled by the same guy who had been recently living in Rome. Or (really, really unlikely), have the emperor/the emperor's heir flee an invading army and do some Abd al-Rahman style wandering until they reach Britain.
The Third Augustan Legion in North Africa was mostly composed of local soldiers of Berber or Punic background.
Which is true, but in Stilicho's era, the Vandals had yet to cross over to Africa, and it is a pretty long way from Iberia to the major population centers of Africa.
Good ideas, but in this timeline, Gaul would have to be as unstable as it was in OTL for it to fall the same way. If the retreat to Britain was to happen on the eve of the barbarian invasions (maybe 395?) then Gaul would not have been cut off yet, so it could have been possible.
Thank you that's some interesting ideas! I have a plan to have Saxon invasions happen at some point, but be met with more resistance. I do see how it could be used to their advantage! Furthermore, if the WRE in exile lasted a longer into the middle ages, it would also face raids from Vikings. Even if the government of the WRE was to fall, provided the Roman-style structure and culture remained the same then I could maybe see a Romano-Celtic state form and replace it, although I haven't really planned that far ahead yet!
I've decided on a POD. 122, the Legio VI Victrix brought to Britain by governor Aulus Platorius fails to make it due to an event, perhaps something as small as poor weather or something. This would prompt a smaller legion to be recruited from tribes in Britain using barbarian enrolment. Even if this was as small as 1 in 10 of the army being British, it would introduce Latin to tribes much before it was in OTL. It would also highlight the need for reinforcements, and if a later governor was to decide on how many men he needed to replace this legion, choosing a number such as 60,000 instead of 40,000 like in OTL (maybe one of the legions that disappeared in OTL was sent to Britain to avoid butterflies) then Britannia would be more stable.
I know this is very early considering the main event would take place in 397, but for most of the history until then, Britain is similar to OTL, but becoming slowly more stable and loyal to Rome. Small changes in this time would be more loyalty during the Crisis of the 3rd Century and rebelling against Carausius who's own attempt to establish an independent Britain + North Gaul fails much quicker, and there is no need to repartition the island.
All of this would lead to Britain being much more stable in the long run. This means in 397, it is more feasible to move there.
I know this is very early considering the main event would take place in 397, but for most of the history until then, Britain is similar to OTL, but becoming slowly more stable and loyal to Rome. Small changes in this time would be more loyalty during the Crisis of the 3rd Century and rebelling against Carausius who's own attempt to establish an independent Britain + North Gaul fails much quicker, and there is no need to repartition the island.
All of this would lead to Britain being much more stable in the long run. This means in 397, it is more feasible to move there.
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The year is 122. Emperor Hadrian visits Britannia, a provincerecently ravished by a major rebellion from 119-121, and initiated the constructed of a wall to “separate Romans from barbarians.” Pompeius Falco, Roman governor of Britannia, and a vexillation of 3,000 put down a rebellion from the northern Brigantes tribe.
After Falco’s office, Hadrian appoints a new governor, a friend of his from his tribe, Aulus Platorius Nepos, who brought the Legio VI Victrix legion from Germania Inferior to be stationed in Britannia to replace a legion wiped out in the war. This legion would not make it Britannia, as they are caught in a battle with Germans just weeks before their departure, wiping out the entire legion.
Unwilling to divert anymore legion from the Roman Empire,for a province considered to be unimportant in relation to the provinces of Mainland Europe, Nepos introduced a policy of early barbarian enrolment. Conscription was introduced in major cities in the south of Britannia.
With a less qualified army, Governor Quintus Lollius Urbicusfortifies the borders he has at Hadrian’s Wall, and calls for reinforcements. The overall size of Roman forces in Roman Britain grew from about 40,000 to 60,000. These new soldiers are mixed with native soldiers. One tenth of regiments would typically be native soldiers, taught to speak Latin and promised payment. With knowledge of the frontier, Romans can put down another Brigantes revolt in 155 just as the rebellion starts.
When these native soldiers return to their tribes at the end of their terms, Latin is slowly introduced to the general populace of Southern Britannia. As these tribes in the south become more Roman in culture, the Empire can focus more on the northern frontier. Trade increases as security becomes guaranteed by the creation of 3 organised British legions.Londinium grew to a population of 120,000 due to Roman trade and emigration from over the Empire.
Governor Pertinax was appointed in 185. Proving to be extremely unpopular with the troops stationed there, he was forced to return to Rome in shame. For governors after him, Britannia was relatively stable compared to regions such as Gaul, as the southern population was mostly Romanised, allowing Rome to pull back Roman legions and reinstate them whenever tribes began to revolt. Britain never faced being overrun due many of the tribes of the south being aligned with Rome.
In 193, the Year of the Five Emperors, Clodius Albinus in Britannia initially supported Septimius Servus. This would change when he declared himself Emperor in 195, however left Britain to march on Rome, and was defeated in at Lugdunum, Gaul. Britannia was divided into Superior (upper) in the south and Inferior (lower) in the north c. 213 aiming to reduce the powers of governors in Londinium from control over legions in the north.
From then until 260, Britannia Superior continued to develop and Romanise. 212 saw all free men in the Empire be granted citizenship as part of the Edict of Caracalla. This would lead to many Latin-speaking peoples, starting in this century, begin to see themselves as Romans. Tribes such as the Catuvellaunirose to prominence by defending the Superior Province, making it one of stability and economic prosperity on par with Italia.
During the Crisis of the Third Century, Britannia wouldinvoluntarily become part of the Gallic Empire established by Postumus in 260 in wake of barbarian invasions and instability in Rome. This territory would be retaken by emperor Aurelian after the Battle of Châlons in 274. However, the rebellion of Britannia and provinces in Gaul again in 286saw further unrest. With large tribes in Superior disloyal to the new empire, when Gaul was retaken by Constantius Chlorus in 293, and Carausius was assassinated, a revolt from Roman and Roman supporting peoples allowed for an easy invasion by the Emperor in 294. Due to the relatively little resistance to being re-annexed into the Empire, the island would not be partitioned by Diocletian, remaining split only into Inferior and Superior, allowing the two provinces to keep their current borders, which tribes slowly begin to recognise over the course of the 4th century.
In 306, Constantine the Great was crowned in Eboracum, further emphasising the integral part of the Empire, now split into East and West, Britannia had become. Constantine would use the island to march to Rome. The province remained loyal to Constantius II after Magnetius attempted to usurp him, leading to his defeat in the Battle of Mons Seleucus in 353and his subsequent suicide. Roman-supporting tribes defended the island successfully against Scoti and Saxon raids during the 4th century, building forts along the coast.
Julian would continue this defence of Britain using soldiers recruited from loyal tribes in Britannia Superior, reforming them under the Julian reforms in 370, which reorganised the army stationed on the island to follow the route taken by the Late Empire, with two divisions for the frontier and the field.The ‘frontier’ would gradually become a term for south ofVallum Aelium in the northern lands of Britannia Inferior. Although the wall and its sturdy forts would remain occupied by Romans, the north continued to remain more unstable than the south.
As well as smaller raids from the Brigantes, Magnus Maximus would raise the standard of revolt at Segontium in 383, crossing the Mare Britannicum and holding much of the Western Roman Empire. He pulled many Roman legionnaires from Britain, although most soldiers in Britannia, the tribes, stayed in Britain. At the end of Magnus Maximus’ rule in 388, Stilicho, the son of a Vandal soldier and Magister Militum (general) of Theodosius I, moved these legions back to Britannia.
After military campaigns in the East and victory at the Battle of the Frigidus in 394, Stilicho was considered by Theodosiusto be responsible for the future of the Empire. Before his death in 395, the last emperor of Roman Empire as it had been for over a millennium appointed him guardian of Honorius I.
Stilicho began planning to move the remaining Roman legions and government to Britannia, believing it to be the only placestable enough where the Western Roman Empire could survive. Gaul faced invasion from Goths and Franks, Carthage and Iberia from the Vandals. His rival, Rufinus, became the power behind the throne in the east. While Stilicho did defeat Alaric’s forces in Macedonia, he kept many forces back in Britannia and Italia.
Amongst court violent court manoeuvrings such as attempted assassination, only made worse by his plans to move the court of the West. In 137, a considerable number of Roman legionnaires were moved to Briannia under the guise of defeating a non-existent revolt in from the Dumnonni, and finally in 138, Stilicho, Honorius I and the few government officials he trusted travelled to Britain via escort through Gaul.
After Falco’s office, Hadrian appoints a new governor, a friend of his from his tribe, Aulus Platorius Nepos, who brought the Legio VI Victrix legion from Germania Inferior to be stationed in Britannia to replace a legion wiped out in the war. This legion would not make it Britannia, as they are caught in a battle with Germans just weeks before their departure, wiping out the entire legion.
Unwilling to divert anymore legion from the Roman Empire,for a province considered to be unimportant in relation to the provinces of Mainland Europe, Nepos introduced a policy of early barbarian enrolment. Conscription was introduced in major cities in the south of Britannia.
With a less qualified army, Governor Quintus Lollius Urbicusfortifies the borders he has at Hadrian’s Wall, and calls for reinforcements. The overall size of Roman forces in Roman Britain grew from about 40,000 to 60,000. These new soldiers are mixed with native soldiers. One tenth of regiments would typically be native soldiers, taught to speak Latin and promised payment. With knowledge of the frontier, Romans can put down another Brigantes revolt in 155 just as the rebellion starts.
When these native soldiers return to their tribes at the end of their terms, Latin is slowly introduced to the general populace of Southern Britannia. As these tribes in the south become more Roman in culture, the Empire can focus more on the northern frontier. Trade increases as security becomes guaranteed by the creation of 3 organised British legions.Londinium grew to a population of 120,000 due to Roman trade and emigration from over the Empire.
Governor Pertinax was appointed in 185. Proving to be extremely unpopular with the troops stationed there, he was forced to return to Rome in shame. For governors after him, Britannia was relatively stable compared to regions such as Gaul, as the southern population was mostly Romanised, allowing Rome to pull back Roman legions and reinstate them whenever tribes began to revolt. Britain never faced being overrun due many of the tribes of the south being aligned with Rome.
In 193, the Year of the Five Emperors, Clodius Albinus in Britannia initially supported Septimius Servus. This would change when he declared himself Emperor in 195, however left Britain to march on Rome, and was defeated in at Lugdunum, Gaul. Britannia was divided into Superior (upper) in the south and Inferior (lower) in the north c. 213 aiming to reduce the powers of governors in Londinium from control over legions in the north.
From then until 260, Britannia Superior continued to develop and Romanise. 212 saw all free men in the Empire be granted citizenship as part of the Edict of Caracalla. This would lead to many Latin-speaking peoples, starting in this century, begin to see themselves as Romans. Tribes such as the Catuvellaunirose to prominence by defending the Superior Province, making it one of stability and economic prosperity on par with Italia.
During the Crisis of the Third Century, Britannia wouldinvoluntarily become part of the Gallic Empire established by Postumus in 260 in wake of barbarian invasions and instability in Rome. This territory would be retaken by emperor Aurelian after the Battle of Châlons in 274. However, the rebellion of Britannia and provinces in Gaul again in 286saw further unrest. With large tribes in Superior disloyal to the new empire, when Gaul was retaken by Constantius Chlorus in 293, and Carausius was assassinated, a revolt from Roman and Roman supporting peoples allowed for an easy invasion by the Emperor in 294. Due to the relatively little resistance to being re-annexed into the Empire, the island would not be partitioned by Diocletian, remaining split only into Inferior and Superior, allowing the two provinces to keep their current borders, which tribes slowly begin to recognise over the course of the 4th century.
In 306, Constantine the Great was crowned in Eboracum, further emphasising the integral part of the Empire, now split into East and West, Britannia had become. Constantine would use the island to march to Rome. The province remained loyal to Constantius II after Magnetius attempted to usurp him, leading to his defeat in the Battle of Mons Seleucus in 353and his subsequent suicide. Roman-supporting tribes defended the island successfully against Scoti and Saxon raids during the 4th century, building forts along the coast.
Julian would continue this defence of Britain using soldiers recruited from loyal tribes in Britannia Superior, reforming them under the Julian reforms in 370, which reorganised the army stationed on the island to follow the route taken by the Late Empire, with two divisions for the frontier and the field.The ‘frontier’ would gradually become a term for south ofVallum Aelium in the northern lands of Britannia Inferior. Although the wall and its sturdy forts would remain occupied by Romans, the north continued to remain more unstable than the south.
As well as smaller raids from the Brigantes, Magnus Maximus would raise the standard of revolt at Segontium in 383, crossing the Mare Britannicum and holding much of the Western Roman Empire. He pulled many Roman legionnaires from Britain, although most soldiers in Britannia, the tribes, stayed in Britain. At the end of Magnus Maximus’ rule in 388, Stilicho, the son of a Vandal soldier and Magister Militum (general) of Theodosius I, moved these legions back to Britannia.
After military campaigns in the East and victory at the Battle of the Frigidus in 394, Stilicho was considered by Theodosiusto be responsible for the future of the Empire. Before his death in 395, the last emperor of Roman Empire as it had been for over a millennium appointed him guardian of Honorius I.
Stilicho began planning to move the remaining Roman legions and government to Britannia, believing it to be the only placestable enough where the Western Roman Empire could survive. Gaul faced invasion from Goths and Franks, Carthage and Iberia from the Vandals. His rival, Rufinus, became the power behind the throne in the east. While Stilicho did defeat Alaric’s forces in Macedonia, he kept many forces back in Britannia and Italia.
Amongst court violent court manoeuvrings such as attempted assassination, only made worse by his plans to move the court of the West. In 137, a considerable number of Roman legionnaires were moved to Briannia under the guise of defeating a non-existent revolt in from the Dumnonni, and finally in 138, Stilicho, Honorius I and the few government officials he trusted travelled to Britain via escort through Gaul.
On the contrary - he was (in legal fiction at least).
Odoacer struck coins of Nepos, something he wouldn't do if Nepos was just a nobody.
They currently sell for 12,500$ a piece:
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=28289
Also, Zeno specifically instructed Odoacer to accept Nepos as western Emperor, which he did. However, I don't have the time to dig up the primary source for this, so you'll have to trust wikipedia:
Even if it's stable, how can Roman technology allow it to get the same amount of prosperity (agricultural wealth, population density, etc.) found in Italia or Africa? Northern Europe was poor compared to the Mediterranean, even if things could have been better off and the region more developed than OTL.
An evacuation to Britain, if Britain is so prosperous, isn't totally implausible, but it would mean the barbarian threat to Carthage and Sicily would need to be very strong--maybe cornered by Germanic peoples at sea and the Berbers on land to convince Roman leadership that Carthage is doomed to fall in the long run. Of course, Britain has to worry about Saxon and Irish pirates, which presumably aren't as big of a threat as the Germanic tribes and Berbers are in the Mediterranean/North Africa.
Might wanna correct the dates in the last two paragraphs. The rest looks really good though!
Amazing! Why not create its own thread for the timeline so we can better follow?
With Rufinus having de-facto power in the East, Stilicho wanted to be further away from the Byzantine Empire. It seems likely that if it was just Sicily or Africa left, even if they had survived the barbarian attacks, they would have been absorbed into the ERE. In OTL, Justinian the Great conquered all of Italy, Sicily and Africa, and would have probably just annexed the WRE if it had survived in any of these locations. Britain, on the other hand, was much further away from the threat posed by both vandals, Roman politics (which is what killed him in OTL) and the Byzantine Empire.
Thanks
I might make a new thread once I finish writing history until about the end of the 'Celtic War' in c. 550AD, just so I can iron out any mistakes or unrealistic events haha
Also, there's a serious argument to be made that as long as the Western Empire controlled North Africa, the empire couldn't really fall. And if that's the case, then there's no reason to assume the empire would lose Italy in the first place. But then if they're in the situation where they're losing North Africa and Italy, why on earth would they flee to Britain, on the furthest edge of the empire, cut off from any support whatsoever from the east.
You can certainly have a Romano-British successor state emerge and prosper in sub-Roman Britain under the right conditions, but I don't see why the western Roman government would flee in exile to Britain.
The Romans, for good reason, often intentionally made sure that soldiers did not serve in the region they were recruited from.
Good points but ITTL Britannia isn't a completely outlandish place to move to due to less instability over the course of the province's history. The WRE, in the late 4th century, wasn't really getting much support from the East anyway, which faced invasion by Alaric. In fact, Stilicho actually had to lead campaigns from the West to defend the East. Furthermore, court politics from the East threatened his assassination, which happened in OTL. Stilicho was not a stranger to this kind of politics and actually took part in it himself by ordering the assassination of another court official. Not wanting this to happen to him, in this OTL he decides to move Honorius further away from the ERE. Finally, Stilicho also wanted to extend the lifespan of the WRE. In OTL, Italy and Africa were annexed by the Byzantines in the 6th century, so if he had simply moved to Africa or defended Italy then it would be just absorbed into the ERE.
And yeah that's true about the soldiers not serving in the region they were recruited from, but this was only in place after much more 'barbarians' were recruited during the Late Empire. And also, this was simply a temporary solution for Britannia until 60,000 legionnaires took its place, and it's likely 1 in 10 couldn't really do much damage to revolt against the Romans.