The Werhrmacht in Indochina V.2

Clibanarius

Banned
So I kinda went off half-cocked in the first version and it needed a lot work so. . .

Again, comments and critique are welcome.

May 1946.

Hundreds of thousands of men in US lend-lease uniforms waited patiently inside the Ami sea-lift ships the Americans had been kind enough to lend to their french masters.

Reinhard Bergmann, formerly of the Brandenbergers and after Valkryie the Grossdeustchland Divsion, leaned back against the steel wall, or the Bulkhead as the sailors called it, not that he cared, let the sailors worry about making up new and confusing terms for a perfectly good wall, and mopped sweat from his forehead.

While Indochina was hot, a thick pervading heat that surrounded you like a blanket, 'balmy' one of the americans had called it, he'd fought in the Afrika Korp where blistering heat in the day and sub-zero nights were a fact of life and so this didn't bother him.

He'd been a little surprised when the frenchman who ran the prison camp had offered him and several others like him a choice, fight under France's flag until we have no more use for you and be granted your freedom. . . or see how long it'll take for us to work you and your friends to death.

Not much a choice but compared to being worked to death by the french while the russians carved up the Fatherland. . . his lip curled in disgust.

"Move! Get your shit and prepare to disembark." Bellowed the french Officer they'd been stuck with, Bergmann stood, shouldered his duffel bag and joined the seething mass of former german soldiers as they made their way up out of the ship's hot confines on to the deck where it was only marginally less hot.

He paused and blinked, he could see hundreds of Panzer IV's Shermans being off-loaded, even a few Panthers and once he saw a handful of Tigers. Stuka Dive-bombers and transport planes were being off-loaded by the dozens but what really caught his attention were the masses of german soldiers on the docks.

"They're not using a few veterans to support their forces they're planning on using us to fight their whole damn war for them."

Reinhard turned to see who'd spoken, the man was little under six feet and had a rippling scar that covered most of the left side of his face. The man grinned, making the scar ripple grotesquely. "Johan Brasche, formerly of the Waffen-SS Panzer-Grenadier Division Gotz von Berlichingen."

Reinhard shook his hand and despite of his distaste for the Waffen-SS he found himself liking the man. "Pleased to meet you, I am Reinhard Bergmann formerly of the Brandenbergers and Grossdeustchland."

They walked down the gangway and continued down the docks. Brasche waved a hand at the organized chaos around them. "Damn, when you look at all this material, all these vehicles. . . just all of it, it's no wonder the americans are so generous," he chuckled, "they'd be crushed under a pile of their products if they didn't share."

Looking around at the crates of weapons, ammunition, parts and everything else Bergmann had to agree, and to think that this was only a fraction of what the americans were capable of. Granted, he'd been on the receiving end of the endless waves the russians had thrown at them but this was. . . impressive.

"I just wish the americans had kept rolling and did to the russians what we couldn't." Said Brasche with another chuckle.

Bergmann raised an eyebrow, he'd killed because he had to do, because he had a duty to the Fatherland and since the enemy had been trying to kill him and his comrades, the lives he'd taken didn't bothered him. But apparently the SS man was one of the ones wholiked it.

He shrugged mentally, it mattered not, he'd had plenty of men like that on his own unit, they weren't insanse and they weren't sadists, they just enjoyed combat.

"It's the only time I truly feel alive, that I feel I am doing something meaningful." An old friend had told him on the one the rare occaisons when they talked about it.

He sighed and suddenly very old, that friend, like most of his friends had been killed at Kursk when they'd been sent straight into the teeth of hell.

"I've told this is just the beginning."

Bergmann shook himself from his reverie and glanced at Brasche. "Oh, yes?"

Brasche nodded enthusiastically. "Oh, yes, mein herr, the americans alone turned over more than than seven hundred thousand german prisoners to the french."

Either not knowing or not caring what the french had planned for them. Bergmann thought. "Well," he said, "it would nice to see some old friends again." Assuming any of them are still alive.

Brasche's grin got wider, if that were possible. "Oh yes, mein herr, I think that we'll have a grand old time, as the americans say."

Bergmann watched bemusedly as his companion took a deep breath of the vietnamese air and laughed like a delighted child.

"Oh yes, a wonderful tropical climate, beautiful women," Brasche blew a kiss to pair of giggling whores, "friendly natives. . . and our charming french hosts are going to give us an in-depth tour of this wonderul country and its beautiful scenery."

Bergmann smiled at the irrepressible SS man's antics and realized that it was the first time he'd done so in many months.
 
Sweet! It's nice to see it new and improved. Will we be seeing any Japanese combat veterans or pilots being sent to Vietnam?
 
A lot of german soldiers fought in Indochina under the Foreign legion,not in the numbers cited above, but still many fought as legioners."legio patria Nostra"
 

Clibanarius

Banned
Yeah, that was one of the reasons I decided to go with this TL, a lot of the POD and backdrop had already been done. The only difference is the french have decided to use an all foreign force, because french mothers won't care if german sons die on the other side of the globe. Especially if those germans are the ones who invaded France.
 
A lot of german soldiers fought in Indochina under the Foreign legion,not in the numbers cited above, but still many fought as legioners."legio patria Nostra"

Have you read his first version of this? The premise is that the French decide to use the hundreds of thousands of POWs as a means of controlling Indochina, rather than sending the French military.

EDIT: Ninja'd. :)
 
By using the german soldiers as Legioners France would make it legal,and it wiil be only an enhancement of OTL legion policy.Numbers and quality of the troops will make a great diferencethe french expeditionary force was 100.000 plus if i remember correctly.Wermatch veterans with legionaries training makes a very tough nut to crack!
 
France isn't really going for legality here. The soldiers being sent are going to be written off as casualties from doing manual labor/mine clearing etc.
 
France isn't really going for legality here. The soldiers being sent are going to be written off as casualties from doing manual labor/mine clearing etc.
Going by the quality of the personnel they are sending to Indochina, that expectation might soon come back to bite them in their collective asses.
 
Good idea.

However couple questions

1) Why ship so much German gear? I mean most of its obsolete/won't function well in the climate. Furthermore shipping so much stuff will be time consuming/expensive. Seems cheaper/more effective to just buy/get American gear which despite being borderline cutting edge is being sold at virtual scrap prices.

2) How large a force are they building in Indochina?

3) Err how is command worked out? Are the privates/NCO's german and the officers french or what?

4) Won't it look bad for the Frenchies amongst the Vietnamese for the war to be fought by mercenaries?

5) Do the french have any grander idea for this massive force then simply subduing Indochina?
 

Clibanarius

Banned
Good idea.

However couple questions

1) Why ship so much German gear? I mean most of its obsolete/won't function well in the climate. Furthermore shipping so much stuff will be time consuming/expensive. Seems cheaper/more effective to just buy/get American gear which despite being borderline cutting edge is being sold at virtual scrap prices.

Point, I'll re-write that.

2) How large a force are they building in Indochina?

France at least a million prisoners before america turned over another 700,000 so even after weeding out the ones that were non-combatants or too old or that committed war crimes and/or worked in the camps you still have a massive force.

3) Err how is command worked out? Are the privates/NCO's german and the officers french or what?

Kind of like OTL Foreign Legion NCOs will be german and the Officers will be french.

4) Won't it look bad for the Frenchies amongst the Vietnamese for the war to be fought by mercenaries?

Well, it's basically an enhancement of OTLs Legion policy and as one American put it at that time if a wife said her husband was in Vietnam her friends would be all "Oh that's nice. . . what's Vietnam?"

Do the french have any grander idea for this massive force then simply subduing Indochina?

Not really, basically they're just using a bunch of trained soldiers to try and overwhelm the Viet Minh through sheer numbers.


posbi said:
Going by the quality of the personnel they are sending to Indochina, that expectation might soon come back to bite them in their collective asses.


That's kind of what I have in mind.
 
Point, I'll re-write that.



France at least a million prisoners before america turned over another 700,000 so even after weeding out the ones that were non-combatants or too old or that committed war crimes and/or worked in the camps you still have a massive force.



Kind of like OTL Foreign Legion NCOs will be german and the Officers will be french.



Well, it's basically an enhancement of OTLs Legion policy and as one American put it at that time if a wife said her husband was in Vietnam her friends would be all "Oh that's nice. . . what's Vietnam?"



Not really, basically they're just using a bunch of trained soldiers to try and overwhelm the Viet Minh through sheer numbers.





That's kind of what I have in mind.

I approve of the Tanks usage for the sake of awesome however.

Regarding my vietnamese comment I was referring to the fact that it might look bad for france amongst the Colonial population.

Makes sense I suppose for them to focus on the viet minh. But I figured the french kind of have a thing for grandiose plans and the temptation to use such a massive veteran force to carve out a protectorate in Southern china might be vast.
 
Any thoughts on the Germans starting their own industry there? While difficult, the SS had millions stored in Swiss bank accounts, as well as connections in Spain and South America. Starting an underground production of Panther tanks, StG44s, MP40s, Kar 98ks, and Fw-190s would come as a complete shock to the French when they take over.

By the way, the French 503e Régiment de Chars de Combat was equipped with around fifty Panther tanks until around 1950.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
Any thoughts on the Germans starting their own industry there? While difficult, the SS had millions stored in Swiss bank accounts, as well as connections in Spain and South America. Starting an underground production of Panther tanks, StG44s, MP40s, Kar 98ks, and Fw-190s would come as a complete shock to the French when they take over.

By the way, the French 503e Régiment de Chars de Combat was equipped with around fifty Panther tanks until around 1950.

Well I could probably do something and I was thinking that Otto Skorzeny might make an appearance.

I approve of the Tanks usage for the sake of awesome however.

Regarding my vietnamese comment I was referring to the fact that it might look bad for france amongst the Colonial population.

Makes sense I suppose for them to focus on the viet minh. But I figured the french kind of have a thing for grandiose plans and the temptation to use such a massive veteran force to carve out a protectorate in Southern china might be vast.

I dunno, do you think the colonials would be buy the whole 'this way we don't have to use young frenchmen to deal with this.' angle.

As for carving out more territory. . . isn't the rest of still under British rule? I know Britian's pulling out but it wasn't an overnight process. Still, I could try something *shrugs* my plan is for the French to still pull out and just kind of abandon the Germans to their fate but the Germans aren't going to just roll over and die.
 
Well I could probably do something and I was thinking that Otto Skorzeny might make an appearance.



I dunno, do you think the colonials would be buy the whole 'this way we don't have to use young frenchmen to deal with this.' angle.

As for carving out more territory. . . isn't the rest of still under British rule? I know Britian's pulling out but it wasn't an overnight process. Still, I could try something *shrugs* my plan is for the French to still pull out and just kind of abandon the Germans to their fate but the Germans aren't going to just roll over and die.

That would make having production and infrastructure set up before hand, absolutely essential. As soon as the French leave, and stop covering up who they are, I suspect everybody will be clamoring for their blood, and there will be people calling for their countries to invade.
 
Why would they pull out? With a million combat-hardened veterans in the theatre - especially the kind where the NCOs are qualified enough to lead as officers, and aren't exactly the squeamish type - this really would have to develop into all kinds of "interesting" directions.

Oh, and keep at least part of the German gear. They got Panzers ready for the desert, they shouldn't have too much problem to adapt them with ACs for Indochina.
 
Why would they pull out? With a million combat-hardened veterans in the theatre - especially the kind where the NCOs are qualified enough to lead as officers, and aren't exactly the squeamish type - this really would have to develop into all kinds of "interesting" directions.

Oh, and keep at least part of the German gear. They got Panzers ready for the desert, they shouldn't have too much problem to adapt them with ACs for Indochina.

Small arms wouldn't have to be changed either. There's nothing wrong with the MP40 or Kar98k. The US was still using the M3 Grease Gun in Vietnam for helicopter crewmen.
 

Hyperion

Banned
If the French/German forces can crush the communists in Vietnam by 1950/51, could this have any indirect impact on the Korean War?

While I don't necessarily see the US wanting to expand the war, the idea of a massive French/German army on China's southern border, bolstered by locally raised Vietnamese troops, might make the Chinese divert a lot of men and equipment to the south, even if they don't see action.

OTOH, despite both being Communist, Vietnam and PRC have fought several armed conflicts over the years, including a couple of fights back in the late 1970s, early 1980s.

Perhaps the French/Germans and Vietnamese locals might decide a modification of the Chinese border is needed to secure Indochina long term from Chinese aggression.
 
Small arms wouldn't have to be changed either. There's nothing wrong with the MP40 or Kar98k. The US was still using the M3 Grease Gun in Vietnam for helicopter crewmen.

So looks like what might stay the same would be

1) Small arms- 98Ks, MP40s, MG 42s, panzerfausts and the like.

2) Artillery- Could see a lot of of captured german artillery being brought along if necessary. Both artillery/AT stuff like 88s, 75s,105s and the like.

3) Maybe some of the armored vehicles such as Panzers/Panthers. It would be awesome if a few tigers were invited for the party but their horrifically impractical in the environment. I expect the rest would be US shermans/greyhounds and M3 Half Tracks.

Stuff probably entirely changed

1) Airpower. I figure the Frenchies would probably buy/get for free A1 Skyraiders, C47s, Bearcats, B26s, A26s and P47s/P51s. However Storchs are likely to stick around.

2) Logstics will probably be all french/American manufactured.

3) I figure new tropical uniforms will probably be issued but I figure the Germies will hang onto their old helmets.
 
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