The Wehrmacht in Indochina.

According to Street Without Joy by Fall, the Junkers managed to stay in service until they got the C-119s in that replaced them. Which is kind of interesting...the USAF was already placing "advisors" by that point. The author flew missions with them to resupply French posts by air.

There's every reason to believe that USAF pilots (two or three, at least) flew Ju-52s over Vietnam. :D

This is one of the reasons I love both alternate history and this sight; just when you think an idea is unlikely or off-the-wall, you find out reality is even worse!:D
 

MacCaulay

Banned
This is one of the reasons I love both alternate history and this sight; just when you think an idea is unlikely or off-the-wall, you find out reality is even worse!:D

You should try and find that book: the part with the aerial resupply is fucking amazing.

The French loadmasters just unhook the cargo pallet, and the plane does a climb so steep the freaking load slides out. The loadmasters aren't even wearing parachutes; they're just hanging onto the sides of the aircraft.
 
You should try and find that book: the part with the aerial resupply is fucking amazing.

The French loadmasters just unhook the cargo pallet, and the plane does a climb so steep the freaking load slides out. The loadmasters aren't even wearing parachutes; they're just hanging onto the sides of the aircraft.

As soon as I have the spare cash, I plan on picking up a few books and dvds. Right now my money is either going for bills and expenses, or is being saved up for a concert in June. Sigh...
 
I had a number of uncle's that served in various Axis armies during WWII. After the war when the survivors returned home they compared thier POW experiences and that of their friends. They concluded that the French POW camps were the worst ones and worse even than the Russian ones.
 
France at this time has little to no heavy lift/transport capability, meaning most of the men and equipment will have to be brought in by ship. How much control does France want here? Do they hope to rid themselves of both the prisoners and Indochina, or protect their interests by any means?
France had very little sea-lift capability in '45~'46, so most of the French troops for Vietnam traveled by US Sea-lift Command Ships.
 
France had very little sea-lift capability in '45~'46, so most of the French troops for Vietnam traveled by US Sea-lift Command Ships.

I realized after I posted it that I couldn't recall the French having any sea transportation capability either.:eek: Thank you for clarifying.:)
 
The French take receive German Soldiers off the hands of the British and the Americans (740,000 from America alone) who have enough on their plate as it is without dealing with the Prisoners and putting the War Criminals on trial.

The French offer all captured SS Troopers a choice, they can be executed or they can serve in the FFL under new identities.

Heer and Luftwaffe Personnel are offered a similiar choice, they can join the FFL and retire as French Citizens and be rewarded with a large grant of land or they can stay in prison and work for their rest of their lives.

As a German I might have a slightly diffrent perspective, but:

-Are you aware, that there is a distinction between Waffen-SS (worse than Wehrmacht, but hardly universially guilty of warcrimes) and SS-Totenkopf troops (the KZ guards)?

-Are you aware of something called the rules of land warfare that were more or less respected between the Germans and the western allies?

-The French allready recruited a lot of former Wehrmacht & SS personel for the foreign legion and nobody gave a damn.

-With the bad conditions / perspective in immediate postwar Germany there would have been no problem to find much more recruits, if you offer them money, citizenship and maybe the oportunity to take their relatives to a new life in, say, Algeria or the US.

-What the French do / pretend to do in your TL might be possible in the immediate postwar time, but is a grave warcrime, worse than what the Russians did and totally going to fuck its relations with its most important neighbour for decades to come.
Alll this, while i think that most of the secrecy and pressure is totally unnecassary

Hmmm, well IIRC Algeria occured in the early 60s did it not? Since it's 1946 and they have a more immediate problem to deal with. . . As for the gear it's already been made and would be cheaper to give a few upgrades and then send over to Indochina.

Yes, the Algerian rebells were somewhat inspired, by the Vietnames success.


Otherwise good writting, but please try to avoid the "cool, badass SS" trap.
 
And I think that FFL (Forces Francaises Libres) was a term used during WWII, to distinguish Free French from Vichy forces, which fell out of use after the war.
It sounds akward to me in connection with SS troops.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
As a German I might have a slightly diffrent perspective, but:

-Are you aware, that there is a distinction between Waffen-SS (worse than Wehrmacht, but hardly universially guilty of warcrimes) and SS-Totenkopf troops (the KZ guards)?

KZ Guards were the ones responsible for running the Camps right?

-Are you aware of something called the rules of land warfare that were more or less respected between the Germans and the western allies?

-The French allready recruited a lot of former Wehrmacht & SS personel for the foreign legion and nobody gave a damn.

Okay, so it makes my life easier to just say they gave them a choice and sent over to either Indochina or Algeria? Or to Algeria later on?

-With the bad conditions / perspective in immediate postwar Germany there would have been no problem to find much more recruits, if you offer them money, citizenship and maybe the oportunity to take their relatives to a new life in, say, Algeria or the US.

-What the French do / pretend to do in your TL might be possible in the immediate postwar time, but is a grave warcrime, worse than what the Russians did and totally going to fuck its relations with its most important neighbour for decades to come.
Alll this, while i think that most of the secrecy and pressure is totally unnecassary

Okay, what would you suggest?


Yes, the Algerian rebells were somewhat inspired, by the Vietnames success.


Otherwise good writting, but please try to avoid the "cool, badass SS" trap.


Should I have them get sent to Indochina first? And then Algeria? (My plan is that they stay behind when France pulls out or is that totally ASB?)


And it's not just about the SS and I know that the reputation the SS has depended on the Division.

And I think that FFL (Forces Francaises Libres) was a term used during WWII, to distinguish Free French from Vichy forces, which fell out of use after the war.
It sounds akward to me in connection with SS troops.

If it's any consolation I was referring to the French Foreign Legion, unless they're one and the same?

I realized after I posted it that I couldn't recall the French having any sea transportation capability either.:eek: Thank you for clarifying.:)

So sending former Wehrmacht Personnel over to Indochina on US Ships might not go over well with the US? If that's the case then I'll scrap this TL. Unless the US doesn't care like Uriel said?
 
As I said, It depends on how much control the French wish to retain. If they wish to get rid of both the prisoners and Indochina, or if they plan on keeping the Germans on a leash and just use them until the French can send French troops in. Either way, I don't see the French caring much about its Allies' opinion, nor do I see the US taking much of an interest. The prisoners could always be moved to Indochina under the pretext of "slave labour", and issued equipment over there.

As to the SS, the Waffen-SS was the fighting arm, while the SS-Totenkopfverbände were the camp guards. The 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was a special case as its personnel were originally drawn from camp guards. I agree in not glorifying the SS, so have the French create some rules, such as only combat vets will be sent, and do away with the SS, insofar as everyone gets folded into the "indochinesche Wehrmacht".
 

Clibanarius

Banned
As I said, It depends on how much control the French wish to retain. If they wish to get rid of both the prisoners and Indochina, or if they plan on keeping the Germans on a leash and just use them until the French can send French troops in. Either way, I don't see the French caring much about its Allies' opinion, nor do I see the US taking much of an interest. The prisoners could always be moved to Indochina under the pretext of "slave labour", and issued equipment over there.

As to the SS, the Waffen-SS was the fighting arm, while the SS-Totenkopfverbände were the camp guards. The 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was a special case as its personnel were originally drawn from camp guards. I agree in not glorifying the SS, so have the French create some rules, such as only combat vets will be sent, and do away with the SS, insofar as everyone gets folded into the "indochinesche Wehrmacht".


The French Plan is to use captured German combat veterans to hold on to Indochina without sacrificing French lives.

And there won't be a Waffen-SS in Indochina, all captured German combat vets will in the same unit under French command.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
1946.

The first units are deployed and begin fighting skirmishes and ambushes throughout the countryside.

Although the French insist on trying to wage a conventional War against the Guerillas the German troops in the bush quickly discard that idea and adapt to the Guerilla Tactics with the aid of the Brandenbergers among the German troops.

They quickly gain a reputation as a cunning, aggressive and vicious enemy and the Viet Minh grow to fear the 'Gold-haired Devils'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

An orange sun rose lazily over a vista of rolling hills covered in the dense jungle foilage as water rolled lazily in turgid streams under the hanging boughs of the trees.

Gerhard Von Falkenberg ran a hand up under the brim of his Stahlhelm mopping sweat from his forehead, true it got hot here but he'd been a Veteran of the Afrika Korp before he'd been transferred to the Eastern Front, heat didn't bother him.

He leaned against the wall of a nearby while their Commander a wiry hatchet faced man named Oullette argued with the Headman through their Interperter a man whose name none of them had been able to pronounce so they called him Little Otto on account of his uncanny resemblence to Sergeant Skorzeny, who, needless to say, had been less than amused.

He frowned and listened to the conversation picking a word here and there, he'd been hammering away at the Language for a month now and could make out a handful of phrases.

He turned his attention from the futile conversation and lit up a ciggarette while Little Otto continued to translate. The men of the Platoon had taken a shine to the vicious little Vietnamese, even the former Waffen-SS men in the unit liked, him after all they had plenty of the 'sub-humans' among their own ranks and hadn't cared as long as they could fight.

Hypocrisy, Irony, and Inconsistency. The building blocks of the entire bloody universe. Falkenberg thought sourly as he threw his ciggarette down and shooed a chicken away.

Everybody was either an enemy or too scared or hated the French too much to help, people constantly switched sides and it was nearly impossible to which one they were on.

Why, their own of course. He grinned a little and shifted the Kar98K on his shoulder to a more comfortable position.

"Thinking deep thoughts?"

Falkenberg turned to see Skorzeny and snorted.

"Hardly, just reflecting on how worthless people can be sometimes."

"Well you know-"

Falkenberg never did find out what Skorzeny was going to say as there was a whistling shriek and a heavy Ker-whump! of an explosion.

"Incoming!" Falkenberg screamed as he dove to the ground and wrenched the rifle of his shoulder.

The Legionnaries hastily took cover and set up their machine guns looking all around for the enemy as the villagers fled out into the fields or into their homes.

It was then that the door to one of the huts swung open and an old japanese grenade rolled out. Falkenberg snarled and tossed it back.

He heard someone shriek and crash into the thin wall of the hut and smirked. He crawled over to the hut, prodded to door open and saw a wide-eyed Viet Minh leaning against the wall of the hut and glaring at him with an implacable hate.

Falkenberg put a bullet through his skull and crawled back.

"Did you get him?" Said Oullette.

Falkenberg nodded shortly. "But he was the only one."

And then the Viet Minh outside the Village attacked.
 
Is this The Otto Skorzeny? If it is I would have pictured him as more behind the scenes, setting up people in Indochina with new identities and smuggling arms and funds in country.

New thought: Any chance of getting ex Japanese soldiers involved? Trained jungle fighters who currently find themselves out of uniform and in a US controlled country would be the perfect target for recruitment by the Indochinesche Wehrmacht.
 
Nothing was written about the Chinese Nationalist troops that "kept the
peace" in North Vietnam after VJ day 1945 along with French, Viet Mihn,
and British Troops, as we see here:
----------------------------------------------
The History Place:
September 13, 1945 Sep 13 1945- British forces arrive in Saigon, South Vietnam.
In North Vietnam, 150,000 Chinese Nationalist soldiers, consisting mainly of poor peasants, arrive in Hanoi after looting Vietnamese villages during their entire march down from China. They then proceed to loot Hanoi.
September 22, 1945 Sep 22 1945- In South Vietnam, 1400 French soldiers released by the British from former Japanese internment camps enter Saigon and go on a deadly rampage, attacking Viet Minh and killing innocent civilians including children, aided by French civilians who joined the rampage. An estimated 20,000 French civilians live in Saigon.
September 24, 1945 Sep 24 1945- In Saigon, Viet Minh successfully organize a general strike shutting down all commerce along with electricity and water supplies. In a suburb of Saigon, members of Binh Xuyen, a Vietnamese criminal organization, massacre 150 French and Eurasian civilians, including children.
September 26, 1945 Sep 26 1945- The first American death in Vietnam occurs, during the unrest in Saigon, as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death, Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam, stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."
October 1945 Oct 1945- 35,000 French soldiers under the command of World War II General Jacques Philippe Leclerc arrive in South Vietnam to restore French rule. Viet Minh immediately begin a guerrilla campaign to harass them. The French then succeed in expelling the Viet Minh from Saigon.

[SIZE=+1]1946[/SIZE]
February 1946 - The Chinese under Chiang Kai-shek agree to withdraw from North Vietnam and allow the French to return in exchange for French concessions in Shanghai and other Chinese ports.

March 1946 - Ho Chi Minh agrees to permit French troops to return to Hanoi temporarily in exchange for French recognition of his Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Chinese troops then depart.
...................................................
Wikipedia:
An estimated 2 million Vietnamese, or 10% of the population then, died during the Vietnamese famine of 1944–45.[26]

Despite fewer losses — Expeditionary Corps suffered one-third of the casualties of the Chinese and Soviet-backed Viet Minh — during the course of the war, the French and Vietnamese loyalists eventually suffered a major strategic setback at the Siege of Dien Bien Phu, which allowed Ho Chi Minh to negotiate a ceasefire with a favorable position at the ongoing Geneva conference of 1954.
------------------------------------------------

How accurate this account posted on The History Place measures out
is hard to say, but plenty of awards for the URL site.

If so, the Viet Mihn and local population had already experienced quite
ill foriegn occupation. Unless well led, the former Wehrmacht troops
are going to get bogged down an demoralized just like any other
group. Maybe if Gen. Jean de Tassigny was sent over there to
supervise, he might have been sensible enough for wise management
of the 'resource', as he later did for a year or so before falling to
cancer. Then VP Nixon reported in 1954 of how the native troops
were not treated well by the French Officers and the two did not
mix, to the detriment of military effectiveness, in example.

My guess is French commanders/officers would have likely treated the
former enemies as cheap cannon fodder which would have a double
negative of brutality of the troops towards the populace and a
poor morale. Ho Chi Mihn would have quickly exploited both and
the end could have come quicker.

Hard to say about the famine as the figures range from 300,000
to this wikipedia one of 2,000,000. Certainly there were large scale
deaths (present Vichy French General Jean Decoux estimated 1 million).
At 20% casualty rates, the local populations would have been
enured to death even more, I guess, and the looting poor impression
of former foreign troops would not help the scenario. How would
you over come these issues? Guerrila war is not a simple formula.

When other communists and nationalists complained of Ho Chi Mihn's
deal with the French to get rid of the Nationalist Chinese, he replied
'better to sniff French [manure] for a hundred years than eat Chinese
for a thousand.' Or so it is reported in history books.
 
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