The Wehrmacht in Indochina.

Clibanarius

Banned
Inspired by OKH_1946's thread about Wehrmacht equipment ending up in the hands of South-East Asian Militaries after WWII.

The idea of German Wehrmacht Personnel in the FFL and in Indochina is a matter of considerable debate.

I plan to do this in a Dry-Timeline/Story style.

Comments and Critique welcome.

POD: Early 1944.


1946.

The French receive German Soldiers from the British and the Americans (740,000 from America alone) who have enough on their plate as it is without dealing with the Prisoners and putting the War Criminals on trial.

The French select every able bodied man who was a combat veteran and offer them a choice they can continue to work in the prison camps for the rest of their lives or they can ship out and fight for France be pardoned and granted citizenships and land.



Most of them agree and sign the Contract and then escorted outside to waiting Planes and Sea-Lift Ships and sent to Indochina.

Upon reaching southern Indochina the German troops are escorted to a Facility in Saigon and begin training.

These captured Germans will make up the bulk of French Troop presence in Indochina as they are numerous, are veterans and French mothers won't care if a German Soldier dies.

1946.

Besides standard Legionnaire training the German troops of the Legion are issued with their old Artillery, Panthers, Panzer IVs, APC's, Trucks, Weapons and even a handful of Tigers that survived the War. The handful of captured Luftwaffe Pilots are issued with captured Stuka's, Transport Planes and Heinkel Bombers and the French add a few captured U-Boats, Minesweepers and Patrol Boats to support the Legion.

The Panzers and APCs are upgraded and their suspension is improved so that they won't jam their tracks as often as they did during the War in thick mud and rocky terrain.

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March 19th 1946.

Lieutenant Gerhard Falkenberg, formerly of the Fallschirmjagers sat back against the hard side of the roaring Cargo Plane and wondered where they were going.

He'd asked once and the French Officer had glared at him and told not to ask if he wanted to live to see Home again.

Falkenberg smiled wryly, what was left of Home. Most of his small Family had perished at Dresden. Father and Paul had been killed at Leningrad while little Michael had fled with Oppa to Switzerland, the last he'd heard of Erich he'd gone missing somewhere near the Foothills of the Caucasas.

"Cigarette?"

Gerhard turned to see large man in a lend-lease US Army Uniform with deep scars down and across his blunt features. Falkenberg frowned as he accepted the Cigarette and tried to place the man.

He'd seen him before but he wasn't sure-

The man saw him looking and grunted. "In the flesh."

"How'd you end up here?"

The man grinned cheerfully and lit his Cigarette and Gerhard's.

"In short? I got hit, made a stupid mistake and got captured and I answer to Reinhard Bergmann."

Falkenberg shook Bergmann's hand. "Lieutenant Gerhard Von Falkenberg."

Otto Skorzeny nodded. "Pleasure to meet you, Lieutenant Falkenberg."

Bergmann leaned back and closed his eyes and after a minutes of smoking the cheap Cigarette so did Falkenberg.
 
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Two minor nitpicks, I don't think they would still be wearing their old fatigues/uniforms. Such things would have been taken when they were captured and "destroyed" with their identities. If the soldiers are given uniforms, they're more than likely Lend-Lease from America! Second, France in '46 had over 900,000 German and Axis prisoners, most of who were being used for slave labour. France captured around 200,000 themselves, and the US transferred around 740,000 prisoners to France towards late '45.
 
Why ship them and all that gear all the way to Indochina? Might they be of better use in Algeria? I know it's a bit early for Algeria, but I thought it might be worth some discussion.
 
Some ex-Brandenburgers served with the French Foreign Legion, and brought their tactics to bear against the Viet Minh. I can't remember titles because it was probably 40 years ago, but I do recall some of their convoy tactics. Having served as anti-guerillas helped. They were probably the best trained force for the conditions.
 
Many different nationalities ended up in the FFL in Indochina. I served in the Australian Army with one who was Hungarian and who'd after his service with the French migrated to Australia, joined the Australian Army and in turn served again in Vietnam as part of the AATTV (Australian Army Training Team Vietnam). Whilst not a member of the SS, he'd served on the Eastern Front with the Hungarian Army.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
Why ship them and all that gear all the way to Indochina? Might they be of better use in Algeria? I know it's a bit early for Algeria, but I thought it might be worth some discussion.


Hmmm, well IIRC Algeria occured in the early 60s did it not? Since it's 1946 and they have a more immediate problem to deal with. . . As for the gear it's already been made and would be cheaper to give a few upgrades and then send over to Indochina.


Two minor nitpicks, I don't think they would still be wearing their old fatigues/uniforms. Such things would have been taken when they were captured and "destroyed" with their identities. If the soldiers are given uniforms, they're more than likely Lend-Lease from America! Second, France in '46 had over 900,000 German and Axis prisoners, most of who were being used for slave labour. France captured around 200,000 themselves, and the US transferred around 740,000 prisoners to France towards late '45.

Oh, thanks I didn't know and thanks for info on the prisoners I'll edit.

Many different nationalities ended up in the FFL in Indochina. I served in the Australian Army with one who was Hungarian and who'd after his service with the French migrated to Australia, joined the Australian Army and in turn served again in Vietnam as part of the AATTV (Australian Army Training Team Vietnam). Whilst not a member of the SS, he'd served on the Eastern Front with the Hungarian Army.

I'll bet he had some stories. . .

Some ex-Brandenburgers served with the French Foreign Legion, and brought their tactics to bear against the Viet Minh. I can't remember titles because it was probably 40 years ago, but I do recall some of their convoy tactics. Having served as anti-guerillas helped. They were probably the best trained force for the conditions.

Thanks! I forgot all about the Brandenburgers, I'll be sure to put them in the next update.
 
So, the French try to keep all this secret... then give everyone their old uniforms and equipment and send them into battle.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
They gave 'em lend-lease US Uniforms and everyone has better/more important things to do than launch an investigation as to why the FFL is using captured german equipment.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
So, the French try to keep all this secret... then give everyone their old uniforms and equipment and send them into battle.

France used the Panther as their MBT after WW2. Why? It worked, and was cheaper and better than the stuff they had around.
 
France used the Panther as their MBT after WW2. Why? It worked, and was cheaper and better than the stuff they had around.
There's a big difference between using some Panthers, and using solely German equipment for everything from the Kar98k to the Stuka and Type VII U-Boats.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
There's a big difference between using some Panthers, and using solely German equipment for everything from the Kar98k to the Stuka and Type VII U-Boats.

It's there, it's effective enough, and best of all, France doesn't have to spend money on replacing any of their stuff that might get broken.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
There's a big difference between using some Panthers, and using solely German equipment for everything from the Kar98k to the Stuka and Type VII U-Boats.


I never said anything about Kar98k's ;). Besides it's cheaper to arm those guys with captured and Lend-Lease gear that they already know how to use and send it over than it is to equip Troops with new Tanks and Gear and then train them to use it.

I mean if you were the US or Britain and you saw that the French were recycling old German Equipment you'd most likely shrug and go on to more important things like say, Russia or your Economy.
 
I never said anything about Kar98k's ;). Besides it's cheaper to arm those guys with captured and Lend-Lease gear that they already know how to use and send it over than it is to equip Troops with new Tanks and Gear and then train them to use it.

I mean if you were the US or Britain and you saw that the French were recycling old German Equipment you'd most likely shrug and go on to more important things like say, Russia or your Economy.
No, you didn't say anything specific about Kar98's. You did however clearly state the German troops were issued their old weapons.

Also, how is nobody noticing these thousands upon thousands of missing prisoners? The ones that are supposed to be executed, difficult, but sure, I'll let that one slide. But what about all the others who were supposed to serve multi-decade sentences?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
No, you didn't say anything specific about Kar98's. You did however clearly state the German troops were issued their old weapons.

Also, how is nobody noticing these thousands upon thousands of missing prisoners? The ones that are supposed to be executed, difficult, but sure, I'll let that one slide. But what about all the others who were supposed to serve multi-decade sentences?

As far as the FFL, and thus, government of France, is concerned those individuals are dead, 100%, full stop.
 

Clibanarius

Banned
No, you didn't say anything specific about Kar98's. You did however clearly state the German troops were issued their old weapons.

Also, how is nobody noticing these thousands upon thousands of missing prisoners? The ones that are supposed to be executed, difficult, but sure, I'll let that one slide. But what about all the others who were supposed to serve multi-decade sentences?


Certain types of their old weapons. Which was done for the reasons stated by myself and others.

Again, if you're the US you're not going to go: "Gee, I think I'll go and dig through a bunch of records on German Prisoners, after I handed 743,000 of them over to France and tick off an Ally because it's not like I've got anything better to do."
 

Clibanarius

Banned
So, as far as the outside world is concerned, the French killed all POW's that were handed over?


Why would the outside world give a rip about a bunch of German Prisoners? Those were very different times and the French aren't running around with huge neon signs that say: "Hey! We killed a bunch of prisoners!"

And officially a lot of them were put on Trial and killed for War Crimes as the ones that weren't. How many Allied Nations do you think would care if some POWs were still in prison or not?

All of them have better things to do than concern themselves with the goings-on of enemy POWs in French Custody.
 
Found an interesting article on the French Air Force in Indochina post WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Armée_de_l'Air_(colonial_presence_1939–1962)

Apparently they had two units of transports/bombers, one equipped with C-47s and another with Ju-52s! The fighter pilots initially arrived without planes, and were later equipped with Spitfires, but they also used seized Japanese planes to round out the units.

Onto nitpicks and ideas: Luftwaffe personnel by the end of the war were mainly ground combatants, even Fallschirmjäger divisions were used in this role, complete with armour, and artillery. Very few actual pilots would be left, although those that are left would probably be aces. France at this time has little to no heavy lift/transport capability, meaning most of the men and equipment will have to be brought in by ship. How much control does France want here? Do they hope to rid themselves of both the prisoners and Indochina, or protect their interests by any means?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Apparently they had two units of transports/bombers, one equipped with C-47s and another with Ju-52s!

According to Street Without Joy by Fall, the Junkers managed to stay in service until they got the C-119s in that replaced them. Which is kind of interesting...the USAF was already placing "advisors" by that point. The author flew missions with them to resupply French posts by air.

There's every reason to believe that USAF pilots (two or three, at least) flew Ju-52s over Vietnam. :D
 
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