The War of Mexican Intervention? (~1995)
- Thread starter Blochead
- Start date
Constantinople
Banned
Oh cool, a bright spot in this rather gloomy future, a spring of nations. This too is one of my favorite threads.
Btw, how many people did die in the war, total?
Btw, how many people did die in the war, total?
Considering the excellent job you've done so far, I look forward to more. 
"Spring of Nations," eh? Sounds great.
I'm guessing it'll revolve around some kind of pale version of the CoDominium....this time between the PAC and SEATO, and more benevolent. (With no UN, this could be the best way to secure peace and stability).
"Spring of Nations," eh? Sounds great.
I'm guessing it'll revolve around some kind of pale version of the CoDominium....this time between the PAC and SEATO, and more benevolent. (With no UN, this could be the best way to secure peace and stability).
Total world casualties from 2062-2072 (The "10 Years Wars" title is the ATL scholarly name for the time period) are roughly 3% of the total world population, at the time this was 9 billion. Counting the indirect casualties from Refugee Flu, food shortages in Europe, radiation-related problems, deaths caused by population displacement in virtually every continent, and other aftereffects, casualties are over 500 million people.
There is also significant population stagnation re-emerging, particularly in the war-torn first world nations where a mix of economic problems and demographic imbalances are causing a decline in the birth rate. Even after wartime price controls, there is crop failure in many regions of the world that were reliant on technology, or were affected by the global temperature drop from the particles kicked up by nuclear weapons and orbital bombardment.
There is also significant population stagnation re-emerging, particularly in the war-torn first world nations where a mix of economic problems and demographic imbalances are causing a decline in the birth rate. Even after wartime price controls, there is crop failure in many regions of the world that were reliant on technology, or were affected by the global temperature drop from the particles kicked up by nuclear weapons and orbital bombardment.
500 million plus!? Good Gods! I suspected the death toll would be high but that's just... astounding.
I would suspect that there would be considerable climate change - for the colder, mind. You were using mass-drivers as weapons and then you dropped that space elevator thingy AND the station on the planet.
Next time i'm gonna fight a war, i'm gonna hire you to run it.
Yeah... WWII was roughly 2.5% of global population by most figures... This war is higher in proportion because it literally touches everything. If one were to look at the combat related deaths, it would be similar in proportion, but the nature of the war means that you cannot ignore the indirect effects.
And yes, things are going to cool down for awhile, though in many nations, we'll see an increase in traditional greenhouse gas emissions. Deforestation and use of 'dirty coal' persist in the later stages of the war. EMP knocks out personal solar panels, knocks back hydrogen production, powerplants, all sorts of stuff. Europe gets hit particularly hard, and the Northeastern US comes to a standstill for the early parts of the war, and has one of the worst winters of the 21st century. However, there isn't as much deforestation as in other regions because of relatively unaffected manufacturing centers that start to pump out windmills and tidal power generators. SEATO will play a similar role in the reconstruction of Europe.
And yes, things are going to cool down for awhile, though in many nations, we'll see an increase in traditional greenhouse gas emissions. Deforestation and use of 'dirty coal' persist in the later stages of the war. EMP knocks out personal solar panels, knocks back hydrogen production, powerplants, all sorts of stuff. Europe gets hit particularly hard, and the Northeastern US comes to a standstill for the early parts of the war, and has one of the worst winters of the 21st century. However, there isn't as much deforestation as in other regions because of relatively unaffected manufacturing centers that start to pump out windmills and tidal power generators. SEATO will play a similar role in the reconstruction of Europe.
Constantinople
Banned
Im guessing the highest death toll was in India/Pakistan?
Is it possible that after the war europe, and ex first world contries that were devastated, could actully after the reconstruction be better off, as they have entirely new infastructures?
Is it possible that after the war europe, and ex first world contries that were devastated, could actully after the reconstruction be better off, as they have entirely new infastructures?
Yes, the highest casualties, both by proportion and by number, were in the India-Persia theater of operations.
And actually, yes, the war is going to radically change the infrastructure in the nations lucky enough to recieve significant foreign aid.
Constantinople
Banned
What was the cultural damage to Europe? Was it significant?
Also, just a general future question but what is england like, just previous to the Final War? Are the cities still fairly historical (Ie, churches, historical buildings restored and such)? Does the Anglican Church still exhist?
Was London still an important center of trade and such?
Also, just a general future question but what is england like, just previous to the Final War? Are the cities still fairly historical (Ie, churches, historical buildings restored and such)? Does the Anglican Church still exhist?
Was London still an important center of trade and such?
Cultural damage is not as severe as economic damage, because EMP has much less of an effect on buildings/items of historic or cultural importance. But it is certainly bad: While area bombing of major civilian centers is nowhere near as severe as it was during WWII or my other TL's Great War, it is certainly not perfectly precise.
Pre-War London still retained much of its historical buildings, due to the 'ultra-efficiency' movement of architecture in the first half of the 21st century that sprung from energy supply shocks and emissions-cutting obligations. So most of the historical landmarks were still there, but over time much of the architecture had changed. London is still a major financial center. Before the lapse into trade wars between the USE-aligned nations and the Eastern European/North American aligned nations, it became a hub of trade between the Americas and the USE. The exacerbations in trade caused by the PAC/NEI and CoN pissing matches leading up to the war were offset by increased economic activity between the PAC and the NEI, and again Britain was a convenient location geographically.
Pre-War London still retained much of its historical buildings, due to the 'ultra-efficiency' movement of architecture in the first half of the 21st century that sprung from energy supply shocks and emissions-cutting obligations. So most of the historical landmarks were still there, but over time much of the architecture had changed. London is still a major financial center. Before the lapse into trade wars between the USE-aligned nations and the Eastern European/North American aligned nations, it became a hub of trade between the Americas and the USE. The exacerbations in trade caused by the PAC/NEI and CoN pissing matches leading up to the war were offset by increased economic activity between the PAC and the NEI, and again Britain was a convenient location geographically.
[2081-2090]
[Asia]
In 2081, the Arab population of Persia revolted. As the religiously-united regions were now under an ethno-politically motivated government rather than the old theocratic regime, the injustices suffered by the minority populations of the Persian empire seemed inexcusable. A largely bloodless revolt overtook the regional government of Persian Iraq, and declared the Republic of Mesopotamia. Around this time, SEATO divested from Persia, leading to a growth in relations with the NEI. SEATO military bases were established along the Red Sea, and solidified its position as most powerful force in the region. Israel, one of the more successful nations, joined the NEI as an observing member. The Israelis had watched what SEATO pressure had done to Britain and feared that SEATO might attempt to appease discontent on the part of the Muslim population by going after Israel politically.
SEATO membership expanded to ironically, finally include all of Southeast Asia, and by 2090, most of Central Asia had also joined the alliance. After the influx of new members, in 2090 SEATO changed its name to simply ETO, or the Eastern Treaty Organization.
[Americas]
The UP continued political control, yet despite the old protectionist bent; they knew that there were serious international commitments they had to follow through on. Fearful of the surviving military powers, the UP provided aid to Britain and Scotland in exchange for renewed basing rights, and attempted to secure trading rights with post-war blocs.
In Latin America, the last of the authoritarian governments installed during the war by either side fell to a series of largely bloodless revolutions. Soldiers refused to fight their own populations, and instead restored democracy to the region. For many nations, it was the first time martial law had been lifted in nearly two decades. The ‘States of Emergencies’ were over. Some nations drifted towards the PAC sphere, while others remained hostile and instead courted SEATO.
Not all nations were satisfied with the conduct of SEATO post-war, however. Brazil refused to allow SEATO to base military forces in Latin America, and instead shaped itself as a self-reliant nation that would bring other Latin American nations out, free of poverty.
Argentina moved towards the ACSU, and trade between them increased rapidly (Partially due to increased demand for meat and industrial products in developing Africa). While Brazil’s new government was nationalistic and was not interested in entangling themselves in another ‘Old World War’, Argentina and the Andean nations gravitated towards the ACSU and SEATO.
In 2084, the PAC began construction of their Pacific Space Elevator, located off the coast of Ecuador, which joined the PAC in 2085. Increased power in space was one of the primary goals of the Pan-American Combine, for it seemed it may not have won the war without it.
[Europe]
Despite paranoia by the local populations, immigrants arriving to the Mediterranean Zone integrated fairly well by 2090, considering the circumstances. Loosening some of the regulations on business while still maintaining a strong safety net, the Zone prospered throughout these years. In 2083, France was admitted to the Mediterranean Zone as an associate member.
In Eastern Europe, however, elections brought in a series of anti-SEATO politicians who demanded the withdrawal of all SEATO military bases from the NEI by 2090. Although trade would continue, popular sentiment was against SEATO presence. Massive protests attempted to shut down the SEATO bases, and eventually the alliance relented.
2085 marked the year of the infamous Genoa Conference, in which SEATO promised a massive package in aid, greater in scale than the American recovery efforts post-WWII, in exchange for military basing rights in Western Europe which the NEI had widely rejected. Framing their actions as defensive ones, to keep the NEI from invading weakened Western Europe, most nations were forced to agree due to their reliance on SEATO aid and trade. The Eastern Standard Yuan became the most important currency, reunifying SEATO/ETO aligned Europe in 2089 after decades of fiscal chaos caused when the value of the Euro collapsed and national governments began printing out local currencies.
[Africa]
The PAC and SEATO solidified their gains in Africa, with Liberia and Sierra Leone joining as foreign associates of the Pan-American Combine in 2082, and virtually all of northern Africa aligning with the Mediterranean Zone and SEATO. The efforts to create both markets and improvements in infrastructure by both of the foreign powers were successful, and though they were not as independent as before, their situations had certainly improved.
The ACSU, still paranoid about the possibility of either SEATO or the PAC starting another war, tried to rebuild an alliance out of the former CoN states with Latin America and India, but never created any formal organization for that purpose. The program of internal improvements spurred great economic growth within the ACSU, however, and most Africans in the alliance were content with what they had, but fearful they might lose it. The region’s space program continued its expansion, rebuilding much of the infrastructure destroyed by the war, and worked in conjunction with India and anti-PAC Latin America for that purpose.
[Space and Technology]
The PAC seemed determined to keep its control of space, and formally announced their lunar claim as a joint territory of the alliance. Small numbers even settled there permanently as the moon continued its integration with the orbital factories as a vital asset of the PAC defense program.
The PAC and SEATO also launched expeditions of scientific vessels towards the asteroid belts in 2085 and 2087, respectively, and the PAC announced its intention to land a man on Mars before 2100. The new EP President, elected in 2088, also stated his intention to make forays to Jupiter.
SEATO responded with its own plans for space exploration and defensive projects, and formalized its own lunar claims in 2086.
Meanwhile, several AIs in the Pan-American Combine and SEATO announced, in a joint declaration in 2088, that they would like to become formal citizens of their respective nations. The world was shocked, and the case immediately went to the Supreme Court of the United States. Although they wished for rights as sentient beings, the AIs all made it clear that they would not, under any circumstances, resort to violent means to meet their requests, declaring them to be ‘counterproductive to the technological advance of civilization’. With the increasing presence of smaller-scale AIs in civil society, however, a great debate among the developed nations began. Academia was pleased that average people were considering philosophy and political theory in a sensible manner, but the outcome of the decisions seemed uncertain. For what determined the boundary between sentience and automated programming? The defense industry jokingly wondered if they would have to grant their AI equipped armaments voting rights, but the area of primary concern were the supercomputers that possessed true personalities and human-like ‘minds’, that could adapt and self-program.
[Asia]
In 2081, the Arab population of Persia revolted. As the religiously-united regions were now under an ethno-politically motivated government rather than the old theocratic regime, the injustices suffered by the minority populations of the Persian empire seemed inexcusable. A largely bloodless revolt overtook the regional government of Persian Iraq, and declared the Republic of Mesopotamia. Around this time, SEATO divested from Persia, leading to a growth in relations with the NEI. SEATO military bases were established along the Red Sea, and solidified its position as most powerful force in the region. Israel, one of the more successful nations, joined the NEI as an observing member. The Israelis had watched what SEATO pressure had done to Britain and feared that SEATO might attempt to appease discontent on the part of the Muslim population by going after Israel politically.
SEATO membership expanded to ironically, finally include all of Southeast Asia, and by 2090, most of Central Asia had also joined the alliance. After the influx of new members, in 2090 SEATO changed its name to simply ETO, or the Eastern Treaty Organization.
[Americas]
The UP continued political control, yet despite the old protectionist bent; they knew that there were serious international commitments they had to follow through on. Fearful of the surviving military powers, the UP provided aid to Britain and Scotland in exchange for renewed basing rights, and attempted to secure trading rights with post-war blocs.
In Latin America, the last of the authoritarian governments installed during the war by either side fell to a series of largely bloodless revolutions. Soldiers refused to fight their own populations, and instead restored democracy to the region. For many nations, it was the first time martial law had been lifted in nearly two decades. The ‘States of Emergencies’ were over. Some nations drifted towards the PAC sphere, while others remained hostile and instead courted SEATO.
Not all nations were satisfied with the conduct of SEATO post-war, however. Brazil refused to allow SEATO to base military forces in Latin America, and instead shaped itself as a self-reliant nation that would bring other Latin American nations out, free of poverty.
Argentina moved towards the ACSU, and trade between them increased rapidly (Partially due to increased demand for meat and industrial products in developing Africa). While Brazil’s new government was nationalistic and was not interested in entangling themselves in another ‘Old World War’, Argentina and the Andean nations gravitated towards the ACSU and SEATO.
In 2084, the PAC began construction of their Pacific Space Elevator, located off the coast of Ecuador, which joined the PAC in 2085. Increased power in space was one of the primary goals of the Pan-American Combine, for it seemed it may not have won the war without it.
[Europe]
Despite paranoia by the local populations, immigrants arriving to the Mediterranean Zone integrated fairly well by 2090, considering the circumstances. Loosening some of the regulations on business while still maintaining a strong safety net, the Zone prospered throughout these years. In 2083, France was admitted to the Mediterranean Zone as an associate member.
In Eastern Europe, however, elections brought in a series of anti-SEATO politicians who demanded the withdrawal of all SEATO military bases from the NEI by 2090. Although trade would continue, popular sentiment was against SEATO presence. Massive protests attempted to shut down the SEATO bases, and eventually the alliance relented.
2085 marked the year of the infamous Genoa Conference, in which SEATO promised a massive package in aid, greater in scale than the American recovery efforts post-WWII, in exchange for military basing rights in Western Europe which the NEI had widely rejected. Framing their actions as defensive ones, to keep the NEI from invading weakened Western Europe, most nations were forced to agree due to their reliance on SEATO aid and trade. The Eastern Standard Yuan became the most important currency, reunifying SEATO/ETO aligned Europe in 2089 after decades of fiscal chaos caused when the value of the Euro collapsed and national governments began printing out local currencies.
[Africa]
The PAC and SEATO solidified their gains in Africa, with Liberia and Sierra Leone joining as foreign associates of the Pan-American Combine in 2082, and virtually all of northern Africa aligning with the Mediterranean Zone and SEATO. The efforts to create both markets and improvements in infrastructure by both of the foreign powers were successful, and though they were not as independent as before, their situations had certainly improved.
The ACSU, still paranoid about the possibility of either SEATO or the PAC starting another war, tried to rebuild an alliance out of the former CoN states with Latin America and India, but never created any formal organization for that purpose. The program of internal improvements spurred great economic growth within the ACSU, however, and most Africans in the alliance were content with what they had, but fearful they might lose it. The region’s space program continued its expansion, rebuilding much of the infrastructure destroyed by the war, and worked in conjunction with India and anti-PAC Latin America for that purpose.
[Space and Technology]
The PAC seemed determined to keep its control of space, and formally announced their lunar claim as a joint territory of the alliance. Small numbers even settled there permanently as the moon continued its integration with the orbital factories as a vital asset of the PAC defense program.
The PAC and SEATO also launched expeditions of scientific vessels towards the asteroid belts in 2085 and 2087, respectively, and the PAC announced its intention to land a man on Mars before 2100. The new EP President, elected in 2088, also stated his intention to make forays to Jupiter.
SEATO responded with its own plans for space exploration and defensive projects, and formalized its own lunar claims in 2086.
Meanwhile, several AIs in the Pan-American Combine and SEATO announced, in a joint declaration in 2088, that they would like to become formal citizens of their respective nations. The world was shocked, and the case immediately went to the Supreme Court of the United States. Although they wished for rights as sentient beings, the AIs all made it clear that they would not, under any circumstances, resort to violent means to meet their requests, declaring them to be ‘counterproductive to the technological advance of civilization’. With the increasing presence of smaller-scale AIs in civil society, however, a great debate among the developed nations began. Academia was pleased that average people were considering philosophy and political theory in a sensible manner, but the outcome of the decisions seemed uncertain. For what determined the boundary between sentience and automated programming? The defense industry jokingly wondered if they would have to grant their AI equipped armaments voting rights, but the area of primary concern were the supercomputers that possessed true personalities and human-like ‘minds’, that could adapt and self-program.
Constantinople
Banned
AI as citizens eh? About Mars, when did the first people land on Mars?
Has Germany reformed yet?
Good update though!
Has Germany reformed yet?
Good update though!
Nobody's landed on Mars yet... PAC intends to be the first to.
Germany is still the most devastated of the former USE nations, but it is slowly recovering due to investment by ETO and Mediterranean Zone nations.
Facinating.
And scary, since the potential for yet another devastating conflict is being set up.
Keep up the great work!
And scary, since the potential for yet another devastating conflict is being set up.
Keep up the great work!
Facinating.
And scary, since the potential for yet another devastating conflict is being set up.
Keep up the great work!
There's certainly paranoia, but any conflict between great powers will be fought through economic competition and policy rather than warfare...
The main reasons the military bases are being set up is to 'secure' areas from violent nationalists and stabilize the regions enough to encourage investment. And even then, a lot of that conflict will be run by contracted mercenaries and special forces, rather than regular troops.
And thank you for the comments, of course.
Constantinople
Banned
Im surprized that no one has landed on Mars yet. Are there any plans for continued Lunar colonization.
To me it looks like the PAC and ETO are roughly on par. Even though on Earth the ETO is very dominate, they have many powerful 'enemies' like the PAC and Brazil and to a lesser extent NEI. Also the PAC dominance in space seems to be very important. Is this all true?
Also how is NEI doing? Have they been able to recover fully? Are there plans to extend it westward?
To me it looks like the PAC and ETO are roughly on par. Even though on Earth the ETO is very dominate, they have many powerful 'enemies' like the PAC and Brazil and to a lesser extent NEI. Also the PAC dominance in space seems to be very important. Is this all true?
Also how is NEI doing? Have they been able to recover fully? Are there plans to extend it westward?
You're welcome....
By 'potential' I meant far into the future (in space, likely).
I see where you're going. It'll likely hasten the world recovery.
How's former Mexico doing? Are there a lot of territories and commonwealths left by 2090?
Ah, space... Well, that will be a little different. I'm going to try and take the space part in a different direction than in other TLs.
As for Mexico, besides the US states there's the Commonwealth of Southern Mexico and the Commonwealth of Chiapas, which enjoys a much looser relationship with the US, more akin to a protectorate than a Commonwealth the way Puerto Rico was.
As for Mexico, besides the US states there's the Commonwealth of Southern Mexico and the Commonwealth of Chiapas, which enjoys a much looser relationship with the US, more akin to a protectorate than a Commonwealth the way Puerto Rico was.