MarkA - in this TL Italy is fighting the Germans in Austria, so when the question is raised by France in the League, Britain goes along with having Germany accused of violating Armistige conditions and demand a withdrawal to the border and demobilization OR facing armed intervention by League members ie France, Belgium, Italy, Poland and Czechoslovakia?
The War of Dictators 1934
- Thread starter arctic warrior
- Start date
arctic warrior said:
Yes. As long as Germany has no significant allies fighting with her, then Britain will back France to intervene militarily. I would expect Poland to remain neutral until perhaps when the end is clearly in sight. The Czechs I think would mainly remain withinin their defences which would tie down considerable numbers of German soldiers to defend against a possible attack. At the same time the Czech army would be safe behind their fortifications.
Would the BEF be sent to the continent? Yes I think it would. As I mentioned I also think the Empire would send contingents too. Whether they would see any fighting is another matter. If most of the German army is tied down in Austria, then I would think the French would make short work of the defenders.
So, Arctic and MarkA reading the dialogue before this means that the new idea would be that is more plaussible a support to France from Britain?
I say this because if the answer is yes the former question of Arctic demanding help to know what votes would have France and Britain in the League of Nations with Britain opposing to the joint resolution of France and Italy I suppose this question would be annulled (and naturally the new joint proposition of France and Britain mentioned by MarkA would win easily- bad times for Germany
)
I say this because if the answer is yes the former question of Arctic demanding help to know what votes would have France and Britain in the League of Nations with Britain opposing to the joint resolution of France and Italy I suppose this question would be annulled (and naturally the new joint proposition of France and Britain mentioned by MarkA would win easily- bad times for Germany
)Iñaki said:So, Arctic and MarkA reading the dialogue before this means that the new idea would be that is more plaussible a support to France from Britain?
I say this because if the answer is yes the former question of Arctic demanding help to know what votes would have France and Britain in the League of Nations with Britain opposing to the joint resolution of France and Italy I suppose this question would be annulled (and naturally the new joint proposition of France and Britain mentioned by MarkA would win easily- bad times for Germany
I should be clearer. If France acts unilaterally to oppose the German invasion of Austria by military means, then I think Britain would have no choice but to support the French initiative with force. Since Laval was an Italian puppet, this seems the more likely scenario.
If France demands British support before it moves against Germany, then the British will probably try to block it through demanding League resolutions first and then gathering the numbers to kep the Anglo-French alliance out of a war.
However, German aggession and Italian and Austrian resistance with France urging urgent aid to help the beleagured Austrians would probably raise public opinion in the UK to support intervention. So British armed intervention would be the more likely outcome of a German invasion.
Well in these moments the french foreign minister is Barthou, Barthou was murdered in october 1934 and after this Laval was his succesor, Barthou was a man with strong character and great diplomatics skills, he considers necessary to stop Germany because possibily he was one of the few men in France that thought that Hitler could be a very dangerous problem in the future.
Barthou had realized of the possible future danger of Nazi Germany and had embarked in making all a serie of alliances against nazi germany (unfortunately for OTL Barthou was murdered by accident, in october 1934 when he was talking in a diplomatic car in Marseille with the yugoeslav king attempting to convince this of the danger of Germany , a croat nationalist shot the car with a lot of bullets with the intention to murder the hated serb king of Yugoeslavia, the king dies and also Barthou that was in the same car that the king and receive some bullets that finished his life.)
Barthou before his death had travelled a lot to the european countries to denounce the dangers of Germany and attempting to make new alliances against Hitler.
So with Barthou the same reaction against Germany but not an italian puppet as Laval, a independent strong politic under Barthou that surely considers this moment as the crucial that with Italy and possibily with England stop Hitler and give him a hard lesson.
Wendell said:
Luxembourg didn't fight in WWI (and if you look at a map, you'll understand why), but they protested repeatedly against German occupation. They wanted economic union with France after the war, but it somehow didn't work out, which is the reason they turned to Belgium. In 1934, there's no doubt the Luxembourgers will side with the French, the Germans aren't even in the Rhineland to "protect" them.
MarkA said:
I think the Belgians would happily welcome the BEF to attack the Rhineland, they could be a bit concerned if only the French are crossing the country...
War of Dictators 1934
After a week of inconclusive fighting in the Alps France wants to intervene in the fighting and foreign minister Berthou ask the British to support it in the League of Nations. Britain is at first lukewarm, but public opinion is strongly in favor of supporting Austria and fiercely anti-German. In the following League of Nations vote, Britain vote in favor of military intervention on behalf of Austria, being the victim of German aggression. Germany must retreat her forces to the borders and demobilize troops in excess of the armistice conditions.
Hitler denounces the League resolve.
Being almost ready for action, as the preceding week have been used to bring up troops to the border the French and Belgian troops prepare to move into the Rhineland.
As the divisions of Wehrkreis V, Münster and VI, Stuttgart guarding the west is engaged in Austria or en route, redeployment is necessary. A division of each Wehrkreis is redirected from Austria and a division from each of Wehrkreis II, Stettin, III, Berlin and IV, Dresden is sent off for the west. Further reinforcements are out of the question as the Polish army is concentrating in the Poznan and Lodz sectors clearly aimed for Berlin and Breslau.
1. August 1934 the French and Belgians cross the German border. British troops land in Ostende, Belgium. Polish aircraft fly reconnaissance missions close to the German border. Royal Navy initiates a blockade of German ports.
2. August 1934: German president Hindenburg dies. Hitler wants the armed forces to swear a new oath to him personally, but v. Fritsch opposes this in light of the present situation and will only have an oath to the Republic.
6. August the first bridgeheads across the Rhine are secured.
8. August after having moved heavy artillery into position the French, British and Belgian troops start crossing the Rhine. German forces have in leaflets been instructed not to oppose the march.
At Mannheim German troops, that has been withdrawn from Austria, fires at the advancing French. The French halts the advance and after a fierce artillery barrage the advance is resumed. In Mainz, Koblenz and Cologne the crossings aren’t opposed.
Commander Gruppenkommando 1, v. Rundstedt, Berlin, after consultations with army c-in-c v. Fritsch orders the German Army not to oppose the French – Belgian – British advance.
Hitler orders v. Fritsch to have the army oppose the western powers advance, but v. Fritsch reply that he is acting in the interest of the country and army.
Hitler then orders the SS to arrest the army High Command and a shootout follows in Bendlerstrasse between SS and Army Field Gendarmerie, with the Army victorious.
During an Army council in the evening it is decided to remove the Nazi regime and the Guards Regiment Berlin is alerted. V. Rundstedt drives up the Chancellery and lead the Guards Regiment in the overthrow of Hitler after a brief shootout in which the SS guards are killed.
Hitler too is killed in the shootout.
10. August in a radiobroadcast v. Fritsch announces that the Army has taken control of the government and that Germany’s armed forces are being withdrawn to German territory. The League of Nations is asked to stop the advance of French – British – Belgian troops.
What happens now?
After a week of inconclusive fighting in the Alps France wants to intervene in the fighting and foreign minister Berthou ask the British to support it in the League of Nations. Britain is at first lukewarm, but public opinion is strongly in favor of supporting Austria and fiercely anti-German. In the following League of Nations vote, Britain vote in favor of military intervention on behalf of Austria, being the victim of German aggression. Germany must retreat her forces to the borders and demobilize troops in excess of the armistice conditions.
Hitler denounces the League resolve.
Being almost ready for action, as the preceding week have been used to bring up troops to the border the French and Belgian troops prepare to move into the Rhineland.
As the divisions of Wehrkreis V, Münster and VI, Stuttgart guarding the west is engaged in Austria or en route, redeployment is necessary. A division of each Wehrkreis is redirected from Austria and a division from each of Wehrkreis II, Stettin, III, Berlin and IV, Dresden is sent off for the west. Further reinforcements are out of the question as the Polish army is concentrating in the Poznan and Lodz sectors clearly aimed for Berlin and Breslau.
1. August 1934 the French and Belgians cross the German border. British troops land in Ostende, Belgium. Polish aircraft fly reconnaissance missions close to the German border. Royal Navy initiates a blockade of German ports.
2. August 1934: German president Hindenburg dies. Hitler wants the armed forces to swear a new oath to him personally, but v. Fritsch opposes this in light of the present situation and will only have an oath to the Republic.
6. August the first bridgeheads across the Rhine are secured.
8. August after having moved heavy artillery into position the French, British and Belgian troops start crossing the Rhine. German forces have in leaflets been instructed not to oppose the march.
At Mannheim German troops, that has been withdrawn from Austria, fires at the advancing French. The French halts the advance and after a fierce artillery barrage the advance is resumed. In Mainz, Koblenz and Cologne the crossings aren’t opposed.
Commander Gruppenkommando 1, v. Rundstedt, Berlin, after consultations with army c-in-c v. Fritsch orders the German Army not to oppose the French – Belgian – British advance.
Hitler orders v. Fritsch to have the army oppose the western powers advance, but v. Fritsch reply that he is acting in the interest of the country and army.
Hitler then orders the SS to arrest the army High Command and a shootout follows in Bendlerstrasse between SS and Army Field Gendarmerie, with the Army victorious.
During an Army council in the evening it is decided to remove the Nazi regime and the Guards Regiment Berlin is alerted. V. Rundstedt drives up the Chancellery and lead the Guards Regiment in the overthrow of Hitler after a brief shootout in which the SS guards are killed.
Hitler too is killed in the shootout.
10. August in a radiobroadcast v. Fritsch announces that the Army has taken control of the government and that Germany’s armed forces are being withdrawn to German territory. The League of Nations is asked to stop the advance of French – British – Belgian troops.
What happens now?
Well possibily apart of banning nazi party von Fritsch want to negotiate the peace with League of Nations but knowing the character of Barthou + the gains of glory of Mussolini, France and Italy would press to continue operations against Germany (and possibily the poles seeing the possibility that germans arrive to an agreement with League of Nations before Poland could intervene in the war an get some territorial gain or advantage, well sure Poland decides to intervene invading East Prussia -ah! those southern zones of Prussia not gained by referendum in the 1920´s by the poles but now could be gained manu militari-).
So while Barthou and Mussolini (and naturally Belgium that in this aspect has the same politics that the french) press to continue operations until negotiations of armistice begins United Kingdom is more reluctant to this, but at the end surely France and Italy continue the operations, Fritsch I suppose decide to accept negotiate a hard armistice: hard because well by logic the first thing that will demand the League of Nations is returning to the letter of Versailles Treaty so: dissolution of the incipient Luftwaffe, reduction of the army to 7 divisions and now the french and the italians want a true and hard presence of League of Nations inspectors to watch that germans could not hidden armament, airplanes and so on.
The german army could be reluctant to this draconian conditions but with the allies in the west, the italians in the south and the poles beginning an offensive against Prussia. well at the end Fritsch agree.
Naturally Rhineland is not now demilitarized instead the League decide another time to occupy them with League troops I suppose belgium and french and some british.
Consecuences: Germany has any possibility to be an important power in Europe in the 1930´s and surely the 1940´s.
So while Barthou and Mussolini (and naturally Belgium that in this aspect has the same politics that the french) press to continue operations until negotiations of armistice begins United Kingdom is more reluctant to this, but at the end surely France and Italy continue the operations, Fritsch I suppose decide to accept negotiate a hard armistice: hard because well by logic the first thing that will demand the League of Nations is returning to the letter of Versailles Treaty so: dissolution of the incipient Luftwaffe, reduction of the army to 7 divisions and now the french and the italians want a true and hard presence of League of Nations inspectors to watch that germans could not hidden armament, airplanes and so on.
The german army could be reluctant to this draconian conditions but with the allies in the west, the italians in the south and the poles beginning an offensive against Prussia. well at the end Fritsch agree.
Naturally Rhineland is not now demilitarized instead the League decide another time to occupy them with League troops I suppose belgium and french and some british.
Consecuences: Germany has any possibility to be an important power in Europe in the 1930´s and surely the 1940´s.
The French, Belgians and a few British troops occupy the Rhineland, the Ruhr and bridgeheads on the east bank of the Rhine. The Italians are badly beaten up in Austria but is given a military mission in Munich to oversee the disarmament and future developments. The Belgians heads the military mission in Munster, the French in Stuttgart, Dresden and Stettin, the British in Berlin, the Poles in Konigsberg.
The Poles de facto take the southern part of East Prussia.
The German states, abolished by Hitler in 1934, is reinstated and given greater legislative powers. V. Fritsch steps down from power after an election.
The Italian army was severely mauled during the conflict. About half of the Italian army went into Austria, and came out in bad shape. The Italian employment of tanks was countered by artillery fire of the Germans. The Italian air-force performed very well, clearing the sky of German aircraft and initiating strategic bombing, without results however. The main deficient of the air-force was the inability to support army units, because lack of communications and suitable aircraft.
The Austrian army and air-force performed well, due to circumstances.
Elections in Germany gives the Social democratic Party the majority and the Communists a very good result.
The Italian air-force made a tour of Eastern Europe to gather admirers and show off the victorious arm.
Feeling that he has been the defender of the League of Nations and not rewarded as such, Mussolini demands reparations. These could take the form of Albania, Dalmatia, Ethiopia, South West Africa or Cameroun. Nobody is really willing to give him such.
Now what happens?
The Poles de facto take the southern part of East Prussia.
The German states, abolished by Hitler in 1934, is reinstated and given greater legislative powers. V. Fritsch steps down from power after an election.
The Italian army was severely mauled during the conflict. About half of the Italian army went into Austria, and came out in bad shape. The Italian employment of tanks was countered by artillery fire of the Germans. The Italian air-force performed very well, clearing the sky of German aircraft and initiating strategic bombing, without results however. The main deficient of the air-force was the inability to support army units, because lack of communications and suitable aircraft.
The Austrian army and air-force performed well, due to circumstances.
Elections in Germany gives the Social democratic Party the majority and the Communists a very good result.
The Italian air-force made a tour of Eastern Europe to gather admirers and show off the victorious arm.
Feeling that he has been the defender of the League of Nations and not rewarded as such, Mussolini demands reparations. These could take the form of Albania, Dalmatia, Ethiopia, South West Africa or Cameroun. Nobody is really willing to give him such.
Now what happens?
Well with Germany effectively neutralized as possible major power during at least one or two decades, for the League of Nations the principal problems in the future would be: Italy (no doubt the more early problem) and the politics of Japan and Soviet Union.
Respect to Italy: in these moments strategically is well situated in Central Europe, is clear a strong alliance with Austria and Hungary has made of Italy a very important key factor in the game of the European alliances.
One possible outcome would be Italy ask to the other great potences of the League of Nations: France, UK and Poland about possible rewards to Italy for his key paper in the Austrian war.
Barthou and the others realized possibily two things: 1. Such demands as Dalmatia, Ethiopia, Cameroon and South-West Africa is impossible to agree because one (Ethiopia) is a souverain member of League of Nations, Dalmatia is a part of Yugoslavia, and the two others are mandates of the French and British (British Cameroon and French Cameroon) and South-Africa (South-West Africa) for Barthou and the british is not possible to agree with these demands (they don´t made this war against Hitler to make of Italy a dangerous potence).
2. But they agree that Mussolini has a part of reason, surely if Mussolini has not been acted so quickly Germany had controlled Austria.
There are secret deliberations between the four: France, Uk, Poland and Italy.
Mussolini and Ciano want to persuade to the other three of the need to make this rewards, the two prefers Dalmatia and Ethiopia, now the two encounters with the strong character of Barthou: he says clearly that this is not possible, and british and poles agree, but Albania is another case.
Mussolini not want to make ennemities with the other powers and well for the moment Albania is interesting.
So possibily Italy could occupate formally Albania with a possible excuse: unrest, agressions against italians, etc. At the end Albania is occupated by Italy 5 years sooner than in OTL.
Respect to Italy: in these moments strategically is well situated in Central Europe, is clear a strong alliance with Austria and Hungary has made of Italy a very important key factor in the game of the European alliances.
One possible outcome would be Italy ask to the other great potences of the League of Nations: France, UK and Poland about possible rewards to Italy for his key paper in the Austrian war.
Barthou and the others realized possibily two things: 1. Such demands as Dalmatia, Ethiopia, Cameroon and South-West Africa is impossible to agree because one (Ethiopia) is a souverain member of League of Nations, Dalmatia is a part of Yugoslavia, and the two others are mandates of the French and British (British Cameroon and French Cameroon) and South-Africa (South-West Africa) for Barthou and the british is not possible to agree with these demands (they don´t made this war against Hitler to make of Italy a dangerous potence).
2. But they agree that Mussolini has a part of reason, surely if Mussolini has not been acted so quickly Germany had controlled Austria.
There are secret deliberations between the four: France, Uk, Poland and Italy.
Mussolini and Ciano want to persuade to the other three of the need to make this rewards, the two prefers Dalmatia and Ethiopia, now the two encounters with the strong character of Barthou: he says clearly that this is not possible, and british and poles agree, but Albania is another case.
Mussolini not want to make ennemities with the other powers and well for the moment Albania is interesting.
So possibily Italy could occupate formally Albania with a possible excuse: unrest, agressions against italians, etc. At the end Albania is occupated by Italy 5 years sooner than in OTL.
birdie said:Just read this TL through properly...very interesting
Thanks birdie. Do you have a proposal for rewarding Musso or shall we just let him rot and take action?
arctic warrior said:
well i dont know really anything about this particulat subject,
Well i think in WWII Italy wanted an atlantic port in West Africa, maybe France or Spain could be persuaded to sell some land in this area.
or maybe give him one of the concessions in China, as well as some control along with the British over the Suez Canal?
That would never happen, the Suez canal is seen as vital to British interests. I think a tacit understanding about Albania is likely, and it's likely that the Libyan resistance leader Sidi Idris (who was in exile in Egypt), might find his way into Italian hands, and the bases for his gurreilla movement there might find themselves closed.
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Mussolini is assured that he is free to occupy Albania if it isn’t too obvious what is going on. Italian military advisors in Albania let a bomb detonate close to an Italian compound in September and Mussolini demands a part in the investigation. Along with Italian police an army battalion arrives as security. Soon more army units follow until Albania de facto is occupied by Italy.
The Soviet Union is admitted to the League of Nations in September.
1935 King Alexander of Yugoslavia is talking of Italy as the great beast to anybody who listens, but to anyone else Italy is the savior of Austria. Alexander’ “cry wolf” is not listened to. His grip on Yugoslavia is slacking as nationalist unrest is sweeping the country.
The Balkan Entente is breaking up. Romania leaves it for a treaty with Italy, Austria and Hungary. Turkey leaves if for neutrality.
Czechoslovakia and Poland signs a friendship treaty with a secret amendment of mutual assistance in case of war with the Soviet Union.
1936 Italy and Hungary accuse Yugoslavia of persecution of the Roman Catholics and demand self-determination for Croatia. At the same time sentiments in Kosovo is stirred by Italian agents by tales of much better lives for Albanians in Italian Albania. As the situation is deteriorating King Alexander’ reprisals are getting harsher. In the summer Croatia declares independence and Italian and Hungarian armed forces moves into Croatia do defend its rights from oppressive Yugoslavia. King Alexander takes the question to the League of Nations, but the reports from Yugoslavia have turned sympathy towards Croatia and support for Italy and Hungary. Alexander calls for outside help, but nobody is really ready to answer it.
In July is the attention of Europe turned to Spain as the military rebellion unfolds.
The Soviet Union calls for assistance to the Government of Spain in the League of Nations, but nothing is decided upon. The Soviet Union then supplies the Spanish Government with arms and volunteers. The Spanish military tries to sail troops from Spanish Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar, but the ship is shot to pieces by the Spanish Navy.
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Is this a possible continuation? What happens now?
The Soviet Union is admitted to the League of Nations in September.
1935 King Alexander of Yugoslavia is talking of Italy as the great beast to anybody who listens, but to anyone else Italy is the savior of Austria. Alexander’ “cry wolf” is not listened to. His grip on Yugoslavia is slacking as nationalist unrest is sweeping the country.
The Balkan Entente is breaking up. Romania leaves it for a treaty with Italy, Austria and Hungary. Turkey leaves if for neutrality.
Czechoslovakia and Poland signs a friendship treaty with a secret amendment of mutual assistance in case of war with the Soviet Union.
1936 Italy and Hungary accuse Yugoslavia of persecution of the Roman Catholics and demand self-determination for Croatia. At the same time sentiments in Kosovo is stirred by Italian agents by tales of much better lives for Albanians in Italian Albania. As the situation is deteriorating King Alexander’ reprisals are getting harsher. In the summer Croatia declares independence and Italian and Hungarian armed forces moves into Croatia do defend its rights from oppressive Yugoslavia. King Alexander takes the question to the League of Nations, but the reports from Yugoslavia have turned sympathy towards Croatia and support for Italy and Hungary. Alexander calls for outside help, but nobody is really ready to answer it.
In July is the attention of Europe turned to Spain as the military rebellion unfolds.
The Soviet Union calls for assistance to the Government of Spain in the League of Nations, but nothing is decided upon. The Soviet Union then supplies the Spanish Government with arms and volunteers. The Spanish military tries to sail troops from Spanish Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar, but the ship is shot to pieces by the Spanish Navy.
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Is this a possible continuation? What happens now?