Gladi said:
Well, yes, could we have some background info on this statement? I have looked for it, but haven't found anything, execpt that France sought so get Czechoslovakia into her net.
The War of Dictators 1934
- Thread starter arctic warrior
- Start date
Well, yes, could we have some background info on this statement? I have looked for it, but haven't found anything, execpt that France sought so get Czechoslovakia into her net.
Searching more information about this thread I was reading the very interesting book of the colection Universal history of XXI Century Editors (it is a spanish editor) Europw 1918-1945 by R.A.C Parker (a pity he has another book about France and the crisis of Rhineland that I don´t have). A very cool book that makes a very good history of the period of inter-wars in Europe.
I find some interesting things:
1. Respect to Yugoeslavia in the books says that in effect the yugoeslav menaces to mobilize his army but in this case if they had entered in Austria had been with more hostility to Italy than Germany. Yugoeslavia had a lot of fear of Mussolini alliance with Hungary, and a movement of Mussolini in Austria had represented for Yugoeslavia that Italy would have enveloped Yugoeslavia with three hostile frontiers: the italian, the austrian and the hungarian.
So surely Yugoeslavia or will stay neutral or in case of intervention it seems more probable an intervention against Italy.
I translate this sentences of the book (my edition is in spanish) about Yugoeslavia that shows what are the yugoeslavian posture in case of an italian intervention in Austria.
"This country (Yugoeslavia) looked with great annoyance the support given by Mussolini to that yugoeslavians (croats in their majority) that opposed to the serb domination in Yugoeslavia. The speeches of Mussolin in the moment of the putsch (it refers to the attempted nazi putsch in Austria) worse the situation. The yugoeslav government makes clear that if Italy sent troops to Austria, Yugoeslavia also would send troops to stop a joint manouver of Italy and Hungary"
2.
Respect to this I found some thing in the book. First of all in these moments in France there was a great man with strong character and great diplomatic skills as french foreign minister Barthou.
Barthou had realized of the possible future danger of Nazi Germany and had embarked in making all a serie of alliances against nazi germany (unfortunately for OTL Barthou was murdered by accident, in october 1934 when he was talking in a diplomatic car in Marseille with the yugoeslav king attempting to convince this of the danger of Germany , a croat nationalist shot the car with a lot of bullets with the intention to murder the hated serb king of Yugoeslavia, the king dies and also Barthou that was in the same car that the king and receive some bullets that finished his life.)
Barthou before his death had travelled a lot to the european countries to denounce the dangers of Germany and attempting to make new alliances against Hitler.
The author says about Czechoslovakian reaction to the politics of Barthou
"Barthou only found an unconditional and total support in the case of Czechoslovakia" (this means that other nations shows partial support and in the case of the other nations of Little Entente had great interest in supporting the politics of Barthou but the only total and loyal support to Barthou comes from Czechoslovakia from the first moment)
So it is clear that Czechoslovakia was the strongest supporter of the politics of Barthou against Germany, so it is very possible that a possible suggestion of France to Czechoslovakia to help Italy in Austria against Germany had been received very positively in Praga and surely Czech troops had intervened against Germany.
3. Apart of this a very interesting figure that in these times was very influential in France has appeared now in this thread: Barthou, after his murder in october 1934, the french foreign politics would be far less strong and intelligent that with Barthou.
But in july 1934 Barthou is alive and had reactioned quickly and strongly against Germany in the Austrian crisis (surely with a reocupation of Rhineland) -is possible that in this ATl in the future also the murder of Barthou could be butterflied and Barthou continues living well-
I only find little information in Internet (this link to a very little biography of Barthou http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0806333.html) but no doubt that Barthou had been an important figure in the Austrian Crisis.
I find some interesting things:
1. Respect to Yugoeslavia in the books says that in effect the yugoeslav menaces to mobilize his army but in this case if they had entered in Austria had been with more hostility to Italy than Germany. Yugoeslavia had a lot of fear of Mussolini alliance with Hungary, and a movement of Mussolini in Austria had represented for Yugoeslavia that Italy would have enveloped Yugoeslavia with three hostile frontiers: the italian, the austrian and the hungarian.
So surely Yugoeslavia or will stay neutral or in case of intervention it seems more probable an intervention against Italy.
I translate this sentences of the book (my edition is in spanish) about Yugoeslavia that shows what are the yugoeslavian posture in case of an italian intervention in Austria.
"This country (Yugoeslavia) looked with great annoyance the support given by Mussolini to that yugoeslavians (croats in their majority) that opposed to the serb domination in Yugoeslavia. The speeches of Mussolin in the moment of the putsch (it refers to the attempted nazi putsch in Austria) worse the situation. The yugoeslav government makes clear that if Italy sent troops to Austria, Yugoeslavia also would send troops to stop a joint manouver of Italy and Hungary"
2.
Respect to this I found some thing in the book. First of all in these moments in France there was a great man with strong character and great diplomatic skills as french foreign minister Barthou.
Barthou had realized of the possible future danger of Nazi Germany and had embarked in making all a serie of alliances against nazi germany (unfortunately for OTL Barthou was murdered by accident, in october 1934 when he was talking in a diplomatic car in Marseille with the yugoeslav king attempting to convince this of the danger of Germany , a croat nationalist shot the car with a lot of bullets with the intention to murder the hated serb king of Yugoeslavia, the king dies and also Barthou that was in the same car that the king and receive some bullets that finished his life.)
Barthou before his death had travelled a lot to the european countries to denounce the dangers of Germany and attempting to make new alliances against Hitler.
The author says about Czechoslovakian reaction to the politics of Barthou
"Barthou only found an unconditional and total support in the case of Czechoslovakia" (this means that other nations shows partial support and in the case of the other nations of Little Entente had great interest in supporting the politics of Barthou but the only total and loyal support to Barthou comes from Czechoslovakia from the first moment)
So it is clear that Czechoslovakia was the strongest supporter of the politics of Barthou against Germany, so it is very possible that a possible suggestion of France to Czechoslovakia to help Italy in Austria against Germany had been received very positively in Praga and surely Czech troops had intervened against Germany.
3. Apart of this a very interesting figure that in these times was very influential in France has appeared now in this thread: Barthou, after his murder in october 1934, the french foreign politics would be far less strong and intelligent that with Barthou.
But in july 1934 Barthou is alive and had reactioned quickly and strongly against Germany in the Austrian crisis (surely with a reocupation of Rhineland) -is possible that in this ATl in the future also the murder of Barthou could be butterflied and Barthou continues living well-
I only find little information in Internet (this link to a very little biography of Barthou http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0806333.html) but no doubt that Barthou had been an important figure in the Austrian Crisis.
MarkA, I might also note that neither Italy nor Austria had any territorial claims against Poland, as did Germany, nor did the reverse exist vis a vis Italy and Austria , again as Poland had against Germany.
If Yugoslavia was that hostile then we might have a POD for Italy as a more important player. After Hitler is removed by the German army, Austria signs an alliance, and Italy causes Yugoslavia to break up with Slovenia and Croatia forming an additional alliance while much of Kosovo is added to Albania...
If Yugoslavia was that hostile then we might have a POD for Italy as a more important player. After Hitler is removed by the German army, Austria signs an alliance, and Italy causes Yugoslavia to break up with Slovenia and Croatia forming an additional alliance while much of Kosovo is added to Albania...
The German army moves into Austria as do the Italian. The Austrian army is loyal and defends Vienna. The Italians move 2 infantry divisions into the Brenner Pass and north of Innsbruck where they meet the Germans. After a bloody battle with huge losses on both sides – Germans because of inexperienced troops, Italians due to poor leadership – the Italians are pushed back to Innsbruck, where the local Austrian Heimwehr (Home Guard – units like German Freikorps) beef up the Italians and the German advance is halted. Further east the Italians move north towards Salzburg and also here they run into a bloody battle. The Austrian 5th and 6th Brigades are holding the German advance in check, but the Italians want to take the lead and attack the German positions. The German force moving across the border at Passau towards Linz is met by the Austrian 4th Brigade and after a brief encounter, with heavy German losses the Brigade retreats slowly towards Linz. The 4th Brigade is reinforced by 1st and 3rd brigades effectively halting the German advance on the Enns River.
Luftwaffe is quickly taken out of the air by Italian and Austrian fighters and Italian bombers attack Munich and Nurnberg.
Part of the Yugoslav army is mobilized and moved up to the border with Austria. (That is OTL!)
France wants to go on the Germans for violating Armistice conditions and Belgium is ready to follow suit, but Britain is not ready to go until the League of Nations votes for it. Poland is, in lieu of its non-aggression pact with Germany ready to act, but will not do so unless it receives French support.
France put the German question on the agenda of the League, but the negotiations drag out. France needs 28 votes to have the majority of the League, which at this time consists of 55 nations:
Argentina, Albania, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Ethiopia, France, Finland, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, India, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Siam, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.
Germany move more troops into Austria. Poland is again asking the French for support in a military action against Germany. Still there is no agreement in the League. The French are not ready to give their support as they want Britain to back up the decision.
As the Luftwaffe has been wiped out the Regia Aeronautica want to take on strategic bombing of Germany. Munich and Nurnberg is bombed again.
My thoughts on the League of Nations –
France and Italy together with Austria get the following initial back up, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Rumania, Spain and Turkey. 13 votes – still 15 votes short of majority.
Britain works to not letting the resolution through together with the of course the Commonwealth and Scandinavian countries. Countries supporting Britain are Albania, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Greece, India, Iraq, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Siam, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa and Yugoslavia. 17 votes – still 12 votes short.
Do you agree with the above votes?
How about the rest, how to they vote?
Luftwaffe is quickly taken out of the air by Italian and Austrian fighters and Italian bombers attack Munich and Nurnberg.
Part of the Yugoslav army is mobilized and moved up to the border with Austria. (That is OTL!)
France wants to go on the Germans for violating Armistice conditions and Belgium is ready to follow suit, but Britain is not ready to go until the League of Nations votes for it. Poland is, in lieu of its non-aggression pact with Germany ready to act, but will not do so unless it receives French support.
France put the German question on the agenda of the League, but the negotiations drag out. France needs 28 votes to have the majority of the League, which at this time consists of 55 nations:
Argentina, Albania, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Ethiopia, France, Finland, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, India, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Siam, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.
Germany move more troops into Austria. Poland is again asking the French for support in a military action against Germany. Still there is no agreement in the League. The French are not ready to give their support as they want Britain to back up the decision.
As the Luftwaffe has been wiped out the Regia Aeronautica want to take on strategic bombing of Germany. Munich and Nurnberg is bombed again.
My thoughts on the League of Nations –
France and Italy together with Austria get the following initial back up, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Rumania, Spain and Turkey. 13 votes – still 15 votes short of majority.
Britain works to not letting the resolution through together with the of course the Commonwealth and Scandinavian countries. Countries supporting Britain are Albania, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Greece, India, Iraq, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Siam, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa and Yugoslavia. 17 votes – still 12 votes short.
Do you agree with the above votes?
How about the rest, how to they vote?
Nice work Arctic
I see that you has beginnig a new timeline with this thread, it is an interesting POD
Respect to the votes: Albania is from Tirana treaty of 1927 practically a lot of dependent economically of Italia, in fact is an informal italian protectorate, so I think Albania would be aligned with Italy.
I see that you has beginnig a new timeline with this thread, it is an interesting POD
Respect to the votes: Albania is from Tirana treaty of 1927 practically a lot of dependent economically of Italia, in fact is an informal italian protectorate, so I think Albania would be aligned with Italy.
China would probably side with France since it would want some support against future Japanese aggression which by 1934 was a certainty. The American states would be interesting. How dominated by US policy were they at this time? Would they vote as a pan-American bloc? Their votes are the crucial ones.
It would be very difficult to know how it would go if a vote was forced since I cannot recall Britain and France being divided at the League on any issue. Any divisions they had were negotiated before any League position was taken as each relied on the other for security and defence.
Once German troops crossed the border, however, I think any such vote would be moot. The UK would not allow unrestrained aggression by Germany against Austria. This would be particularly so if British inaction or delaying tactics would alienate Britain from France or Italy. French support was seen as of the highest strategic importance in London, second only to the Empire as the bulwark of British defence policy.
Italy was seen as a direct threat to British interests if Mussolini was allowed to dictate terms. If Il Duce could be made an ally or at least be allowed to act in areas without threatening british interests, all the better. Remember Mussolini was the darling of the conservatives in Britain and the Empire as well as the US.
It would be very difficult to know how it would go if a vote was forced since I cannot recall Britain and France being divided at the League on any issue. Any divisions they had were negotiated before any League position was taken as each relied on the other for security and defence.
Once German troops crossed the border, however, I think any such vote would be moot. The UK would not allow unrestrained aggression by Germany against Austria. This would be particularly so if British inaction or delaying tactics would alienate Britain from France or Italy. French support was seen as of the highest strategic importance in London, second only to the Empire as the bulwark of British defence policy.
Italy was seen as a direct threat to British interests if Mussolini was allowed to dictate terms. If Il Duce could be made an ally or at least be allowed to act in areas without threatening british interests, all the better. Remember Mussolini was the darling of the conservatives in Britain and the Empire as well as the US.
I'm under the impression a lot of Austrians wanted union with Germany. I'm thinking there'd be more dissension.
Luxembourg would go along with France and Belgium. Same for Haiti and Portugal.
Ethiopia with UK
Ethiopia with UK
Portugal is in these moments under the direction of the Estado Novo of Oliveira Salazar, Salazar wants a kind of state corporativist, but this not means that Oliveira is fascist, it is more a traditional authoritarian dictator than a fascist, in fact Salazar is repressing the possible portuguese fascist movements because he dislikes about fascism and his philosophy.
Salazar also not want anyone confounds his "Estado Novo" corporativist organization with the organization of Mussolini Italy and makes clear public statements indicating that "Estado Novo" is not fascist or pseudo-fascist.
Because this and the traditional alliance with England I think that Portugal will vote with England.
Salazar also not want anyone confounds his "Estado Novo" corporativist organization with the organization of Mussolini Italy and makes clear public statements indicating that "Estado Novo" is not fascist or pseudo-fascist.
Because this and the traditional alliance with England I think that Portugal will vote with England.
I think Bulgaria will vote with Italy out of opposition to Yugoslavia.
I wonder why you put Denmark in the British camp. It had got north Schleswig after WWI and cannot therefore be very happy with Germany's aggressive moves.
I think The Netherlands will try to avoid taking sides for as long as possible.
I wonder why you put Denmark in the British camp. It had got north Schleswig after WWI and cannot therefore be very happy with Germany's aggressive moves.
I think The Netherlands will try to avoid taking sides for as long as possible.
Votes of the League of Nations:
with France - Albania, Luxembourg, Haiti, Bulgaria
with Britain - Portugal.
My perception of the situation was that France would propose it in the League and Britain would work to counter military intervention.
MarkA: I think this early Britain would work on its not liking Italy and wanting to get in involved in something that could lead to a major European war again. I have the impression that the work of France to gather allies in Eastern Europe was a result of this British policy. I might be wrong on this.
Inaki: I put Albania initally with Britain as I understand King Zog of Albania at this time tried to get some more independence from Italy. I am aware of Italy's hold on Albania at this time.
MerryPrankster: Austria wanted a union with Germany - yes in 1938. The way things developed in 1934 I think parts of Austrian population would side with Germany, but the majority an especially Army and Police would be loyal to the Government and that would count.
JHPier: I put Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries along Britain at this time due to Denmarks not wanting to disturb Germany, yes we got North Sleswig back in 1920 but were aware of developments in Germany, and Britain was our main trade partner those days. Especially because Britain in 1932 had declined to aid Denmark in a future war with Germany. I agree the Netherlands would wawer as long as possible and therefore put it with Britain.
Anything on this?
with France - Albania, Luxembourg, Haiti, Bulgaria
with Britain - Portugal.
My perception of the situation was that France would propose it in the League and Britain would work to counter military intervention.
MarkA: I think this early Britain would work on its not liking Italy and wanting to get in involved in something that could lead to a major European war again. I have the impression that the work of France to gather allies in Eastern Europe was a result of this British policy. I might be wrong on this.
Inaki: I put Albania initally with Britain as I understand King Zog of Albania at this time tried to get some more independence from Italy. I am aware of Italy's hold on Albania at this time.
MerryPrankster: Austria wanted a union with Germany - yes in 1938. The way things developed in 1934 I think parts of Austrian population would side with Germany, but the majority an especially Army and Police would be loyal to the Government and that would count.
JHPier: I put Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries along Britain at this time due to Denmarks not wanting to disturb Germany, yes we got North Sleswig back in 1920 but were aware of developments in Germany, and Britain was our main trade partner those days. Especially because Britain in 1932 had declined to aid Denmark in a future war with Germany. I agree the Netherlands would wawer as long as possible and therefore put it with Britain.
Anything on this?
I think that Ireland will vote in favour france.
From 1932 Ireland is governed by the Fianna Fail of Eamon de Valera, and Valera want to show to all that although Ireland is part of Commonwealth has a politic totally diferent from England. The oath of loyalty to the england crown was abolished in 1933, there was a customs war against England in 1932-33 and clearly Valera is maintaining a more or less hostile position to England.
Also the fact that a catholic country as Austria is being invaded by the nazi germany makes the catholic Ireland to show all his support to Austria.
Because this two things: the politic of de Valera hostile to England and the support to a catholic nation against the nazis I think Ireland will vote with France.
From 1932 Ireland is governed by the Fianna Fail of Eamon de Valera, and Valera want to show to all that although Ireland is part of Commonwealth has a politic totally diferent from England. The oath of loyalty to the england crown was abolished in 1933, there was a customs war against England in 1932-33 and clearly Valera is maintaining a more or less hostile position to England.
Also the fact that a catholic country as Austria is being invaded by the nazi germany makes the catholic Ireland to show all his support to Austria.
Because this two things: the politic of de Valera hostile to England and the support to a catholic nation against the nazis I think Ireland will vote with France.
arctic warrior said:
Britain was very friendly to Fascist Italy until Anthony Eden became Foreign Secretary (apparently he had a personal dislike for Mussolini). Indeed, most of the conservative class in the UK and the Empire and the US were great fans of Il Duce and admired his style of government and his suppression of dissent.
You are right in suggesting that in 1934 the last thing Britain wanted was to be involved in another continental war. However, if France responded to German armed aggression against Austria, I think Britain would support France come what may. It simply could not allow France to be alienated from the alliance.
If Italy was already fighting alongside the Austrians, the British would be even more inclined to support armed intervention. The Royal Navy could concentrate in the North Sea and Home waters since both the French and Italian navies would secure the Med.. Any Imperial or British forces would not need to be deployed in strength in North Africa or elsewhere on that continent or in the Middle East. All available Empire troops could be sent directly to the continent to reinforce the BEF and aid the other allies.