The Walking Tank
- Thread starter Pkmatrix
- Start date
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- cold war timeline world war 2
Solomaxwell6
Banned
They run out of shells. And as fuel runs out, it's very simple to take out a tank. So we go back to the issue of tanks really needing fuel.
They can't carry shit if they've exploded.
Let me reiterate, since (I assume) you didn't read my previous post. Helicopters are very good at dropping soldiers off. They can move a couple of soldiers from point A to point B far faster and more efficiently than the soldiers can do themselves. The helicopters are then capable of unloading said soldiers, and sitting in place for a while, where they will then provide ample support. While the units on the ground are necessary to an extent, the helicopter is the prime mover in this situation, and the units on the ground can only do their job with the helicopter present.
Pkmatrix
Monthly Donor
Actually, my thesis is that even if walkers were possible we still wouldn't use them.
Anyways, here's a bit of an update. I've tried to add some detail into the earlier bits including more of the problems you guys have pointed out, plus an attempt at detailing what these machines actually are design/armament-wise. There's also a few new entries at the end.
Late 1940 - As plans for Operation Barbarossa were being drafted by Nazi Germany, the German military considered the possibility of the invasion extending beyond Moscow all the way to the Urals. If that occurred, some planners argued that German tanks would be rendered useless by the unforgiving mountain terrain. To prevent such a catastrophe, the German Army requested that manufacterer Henschel & Son develop a vehicle that could overcome this problem. Henschel's solution was the Hs-281 "Spazierengehen Panzerkampfwagen", or "Walking Tank" (literally, "Walking Armored Combat Car") - a four-legged vehicle that amounted to an engine, a lightly armored platform, and a lightweight 75mm gun. Afterwards, the Hs-281 project was suspended and the design shelved as German military leaders decided it would not be necessary.
October 1941 - With German forces bearing down on Moscow and after facing serious resistance from the Soviets, interest was reknewed in the Spazierengehen Panzerkampfwagen project as some in the German High Command once again worried about the performance of the Tank Corps when German forces pushed into the Urals. Henschel & Son was commissioned to build a working proof-of-concept prototype of the Spazierengehen Panzerkampfwagen for the German Army.
August 1943 - A single Hs-281 prototype was completed at Heschel & Son's factory in Kassel and demonstrated for senior military officials. Impressed, they commissioned a combat-ready prototype. Heschel & Son designated the new unit Hs-281B. Unfortunately, as the war had turned against Germany, the project saw its funding cut in favor of increased traditional tank production.
April 1945 - The city of Kassel, including Henschel & Son's factories, was captured by the US Army. Among other things, the Hs-281A and the incomplete Hs-281B prototypes fell into the hands of the United States military. After the war in Europe ended, all materials related to the project were shipped to Newark Army Air Field and, eventually, to the Tank Automotive Research, Development and Engineering Center in Warren, Michigan. Deemed of "low priority interest", all materials were put in storage.
January 1946 - Dr. Eberhard von Maur, the chief engineer on the Spazierengehen Panzerkampfwagen project, resurfaced at the Soviet OKB-520 design bureau, where he participated in the development of the T-54 and T-55 main battle tanks.
December 1967 - Dr. von Maur, now a senior engineer at OKB-520, capitalized on renewed Soviet interest in robotics to propose an updated Soviet version of the Walking Tank concept. Among the improvements von Maur suggested were using a modern engine and gun, an enclosed crew compartment inside a turret, and the addition of two more legs to better manage rough terrain. The project was approved under the codename "Object 169", but was given low priority next to other projects, with many engineers doing double duty on the development of the T-72 main battle tank.
June 1971 - US intelligence obtained documents detailing Object 169 and Dr. von Maur's work. In response, the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency (DARPA) was asked to conduct a study on whether or not the concept was at all feasible.
May 1972 - DARPA completed its study on the walking tank concept, determining that "while interesting, was too fallible and easily countered to be useful in a realistic combat setting". Ultimately, the Soviet design was too-lightly armored to provide adequate crew protection, was using an engine that would burn too much fuel while not providing enough energy to move except in very short bursts, and that in softer terrain would likely bog down quickly due to weight issues. Although tabs were kept on the Soviet walking tank's development, it was considered a dead-end and likely waste of Soviet resources.
February 1974 - Dr. von Maur died of lung cancer. Shortly afterward, Object 169's development was cancelled and its team dispersed throughout OKB-520, with the Object 169 prototype about 70% complete. The CIA ceased surveillance of Object 169, concluding the project had been a failure.
December 1979 - The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Opposing them was the mujahideen, supported and supplied by the CIA. The resulting conflict proved difficult on Soviet forces, who were unprepared for the level of guerilla warfare they faced.
September 1982 - Unable to use armored vehicles effectively in Afghanistan's rough terrain, interest was renewed in Object 169. The Soviet Army tasked OKB-520 with finishing the prototype, and the project was handed over to Dr. Pavel Demidov, who had originally worked on the design under Dr. von Maur.
March 1983 - The Object 169 prototype was demonstrated to a group of senior Soviet officials, impressing them as much as it had their German predecessors forty years earlier. The Soviet Army commissioned the construction of three combat-ready units, now designated the W-83, for field testing in Afghanistan. How well the W-83 team performed in the field would determine whether or not to go forward with further production.
January 1986 - The three W-83 test units were completed. The Soviet Army drew personnel from the Tank Corps to be trained as the test operators, with initial field tests conducted in Tajikistan. Word of the bizarre vehicles eventually made its way to CIA operatives, who managed to smuggle photos back to the United States. Analysts were able to connect the W-83 units to the all-but-forgotten Object 169 Project.
July 1987 - All three W-83 units, as well as their support team, were deployed to Afghanistan and attached to the 201st Motor Rifle Division. Despite efforts to maintain some level of secrecy, images reached western media outlets and the existence of the W-83 walkers became public knowledge. Many in the West found the vehicles absolutely absurd, repeating many of the criticisms first made by DARPA a decade earlier, and wrote the W-83 off. As a talking point, it was used as an example of how desperate the Soviets had become.
November 1987 - Operation Magistral began. Amongst the Soviet forces deployed to Paktia Province was the W-83 Test Unit, which served as mobile artillery amongst the rugged mountain terrain supporting Soviet and Afghani infantry. The W-83s proved surprisingly effective and their intimidating appearance had an impact on Mujahideen morale. Even more impressively, one W-83 unit survived a direct RPG attack to the legs - what many predicted would be a devastating (if not fatal) blow was shrugged off, with the unit managing to right itself within only a few minutes and the heavily armored leg sustaining only moderate damage.
January 1988 - Operation Magistral ended in a Soviet victory, and the success of the W-83 units won them respect amongst their allies and enemies. Unfortunately, this was all too little too late: by the end of the year, the Soviet Union began withdrawing from Afghanistan. Regardless, the Soviet Army ordered nine more W-83s.
August 1988 - Researchers at the United States Army Tank Automotive Research, Development and Engineering Center (TARDEC) in Warren, Michigan restarted research into the walking tank concept after US intelligence passed on what was known about the W-83 and its development. John O. Olsen, head of the project, rediscovered the old Hs-281 prototypes rotting away in a warehouse in the Detroit Arsenal since World War II. Using the Hs-281 as the basis, TARDEC began designing an American walking tank.
January 1989 - All three W-83 units withdrew from Aghanistan and returned to their field base in Tajikistan along with the 201st Motor Rifle Division. The first mass-production W-83, designated "W-83 Block 2", was completed in Russia.
July 1989 - The first team of mass-production W-83s was delivered to the 14th Tank Division in Novocherkassk. Shortly afterward, the 14th Tank Division was reorganized into the Interior Ministry's 100th Division.
November 1989 - TARDEC sent a preliminary report to the Pentagon largely repeating many of the criticisms of the Walking Tank concept that had been voiced by DARPA. While experimenting with the restored Hs-281 prototypes, John Olsen's team found little to suggest any superiority over conventional treaded armored vehicles beyond the additional mobility legs provided. Regardless, Olsen's team presented a set of design recommendations for what the Pentagon should request of manufacturers if they decide to go forward.
February 1990 - The second MP W-83 team was delivered to 21st Guards Tank Division of the 35th Army in Belogorsk, in the Russian Far East.
March 1990 - John Olsen's report and the US Walking Tank development program came before the House Armed Services' subcommitte on Tactical Air and Land Forces. Despite reservations on the usefulness of such a weapons platform, the committee allowed development to proceed.
June 1990 - The Pentagon sent out a memoradum to potential manufacturers outlining the project and what was expected of weapons platform, opening the floor to design proposals.
July 1990 - A third and final team of MP W-83s was delivered to the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division in Naro-Fominsk, southwest of Moscow.
It was before invention of a helicopter but in a war where airpower was usedto great extent. for example of plan after helicopter being used see 1990 defence palns for Saudi.
They run out of shells and fuel, same as helicopters.In order to resupplythem all you need is a truck to pull up to them and offloadthem. Tanks don't have to move. Helicopters can't do that. They ahve to return to base for rearming and to safe area to refuel.
and helos carry even less shit if they are shot down. hell, hit a helicopter in a critical area and it will go away to avoidcrashing.
I read your post but you obviously haven't read mine. Or yours. You keep saying helos are good at moving troop around. Nobody is arguing that. and that proves my point, not yours. Helos move troops to area that has to be taken or defended. Why do they go through all that trouble to move infantry in the first place if they can do the job themselves, as you claim?
Your argument would be like claiming trains are good at holding ground since you can move troops from point A to point B fast.I support this thread!
That's becasue you displayed good enough engineering knowledge to know what has a leg to stand on and what leg has low enough ground pressure not to sink the whole thing.
I has A Nickname!
YAY!
Hmmm...
Purgis...
sounds like an Inquisitor!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha! Fear for your eternal souls heretic scum! for I hve come to cleanse you alll! HA-HA-HA-HA-HA
Gah! get away from me you crazy syringe-weilding Valkirie-b**ch!
I dont need medication! AAAGH! stupid orderlies!
*thumping noises, muffled protests and then a long silence*
*slurred*
Woah, far out!
I am impressed by this TL. It isn't too much too fast, it seems rather plausible.
You don't need a thesis. All you need is to accept reality.
We already make walkers and we already use walkers. I told you in this very thread that such machines are used in the timber industry.
What we don't do is use walkers for military purposes and nothing you've suggested here will change that.
Solomaxwell6
Banned
I like how you keep accusing him for not being able to parse a sentence, and then you skip the part where he says we wouldn't use them for military purposes. Because, you know, it wouldn't be convenient for your senseless bitching.
Edit: On an unrelated note, you're a nuclear engineer, right?
Senseless bitching...
Please read these two paragraphs from the OP's Post #83. There will be a test afterward.
November 1987 - Operation Magistral began. Amongst the Soviet forces deployed to Paktia Province was the W-83 Test Unit, which served as mobile artillery amongst the rugged mountain terrain supporting Soviet and Afghani infantry. The W-83s proved surprisingly effective and their intimidating appearance had an impact on Mujahideen morale. Even more impressively, one W-83 unit survived a direct RPG attack to the legs - what many predicted would be a devastating (if not fatal) blow was shrugged off, with the unit managing to right itself within only a few minutes and the heavily armored leg sustaining only moderate damage.
January 1988 - Operation Magistral ended in a Soviet victory, and the success of the W-83 units won them respect amongst their allies and enemies. Unfortunately, this was all too little too late: by the end of the year, the Soviet Union began withdrawing from Afghanistan. Regardless, the Soviet Army ordered nine more W-83s.
The OP said "we wouldn't use them for military purposes"? Then tell me what the Soviets were using the W-83 units for during Operation Magistral? Tell what the phrases "mobile artillery", "surprisingly effective", and "success of the W-83 units won them respect amongst their allies and enemies" mean too.
Solomaxwell6
Banned
So, poorly thought out pieces of military tech haven't had good luck and surprising effectiveness (ex: elephants)? The Soviet Union wasn't known for having some ridiculous schemes (Nina Kulagina is a capitalist lie!)? Military tech has never been given small scale trial runs? Given Pkmatrix's repeated claims that his work is meant to discredit the potential of walking tanks in military use, I'm inclined to believe what the author himself said.
And I quoted what the author wrote most recently.
He began thinking these things could work. When it was explained to him that they couldn't, he backed up a little. He then posted a time line which featured the Soviet development and successful use of walkers in Afghanistan which triggers a DARPA project and Congressional funding.
Even your excuse of it being Yet Another Silly Soviet Project doesn't work because the walkers' performance "... won them respect amongst their allies and enemies...". That's another thing the author himself said.
Which is it? That they don't work or that they do? He's said both and both cannot be true at the same time.
So, which is it?