The Vivaldi Brothers Return?

The Vivaldi Brothers were explorers from Genoa who left for India in 1291. They passed through the Straits of Gibraltar and were never seen again. Let's assume that they tried to sail directly across the Atlantic, believing that they could reach India this way, just as Columbus tried later. If they reach the Americas (most likely the Carribean?) and manage to return to Europe, what would the reactions of the courts of Europe be? Would there be any interest in colonizing the Americas at this time?
 
Let me just say that this is a (pardon my Inuit) fucking awesome idea. Americas discovered by medieval Europe? WOO! I've got no idea on what would happen though, sorry.
 
Apparently they used Galleys and may have reached the Canary Islands. A better choice would have been a couple of good solid Hanseatic Cogs.

A better chance for reaching the New World during the Middle Ages would be via the northern route, leaving from Bristol and island hopping from the Shetlands to Iceland and Greenland to North America. There does seem to have been some trade between Bristol and Iceland at that time (dried cod exchanged for wool and wine.) Now a 14th century English colony on Cape Cod or Long Island that managed to survive and keep in contact with the home country would be real interesting. Hopefully they don't import Plague later on :eek:
 
I assume, rather, Brazil, if they took a southerly course rather than due west. They didn't know about the trade winds.

I toyed with the idea back when

https://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...valdi+Journeys

Cool! The search function was broken when I tried to search for this topic, so I didn't know anyone made a TL about this. I was thinking of writing my own, so I won't read yours for now, in case my subconscious gets too inspired...

Let me just say that this is a (pardon my Inuit) fucking awesome idea. Americas discovered by medieval Europe? WOO! I've got no idea on what would happen though, sorry.

Yeah that was my reaction too.

Colonization would happen much more slowly and probably be more difficult given the smaller tech gap.

I'm not sure if the conditions that created OTL colonialism even existed in Europe at this time. I'm thinking that any future motivations will be religiously motivated; the Vivaldi expedition brought with it a couple of Fransiscan friars. Maybe the second expedition sets up a small trading post and mission, but we don't see the same kind of massive conquests that we had in OTL? At least not for now...

Apparently they used Galleys and may have reached the Canary Islands. A better choice would have been a couple of good solid Hanseatic Cogs.

Thats the other thing I wondered: could galleys have even made the trip there and back? Let's assume they land in Brazil, like carlton_bach says, and patch their ships up there.

A better chance for reaching the New World during the Middle Ages would be via the northern route, leaving from Bristol and island hopping from the Shetlands to Iceland and Greenland to North America. There does seem to have been some trade between Bristol and Iceland at that time (dried cod exchanged for wool and wine.) Now a 14th century English colony on Cape Cod or Long Island that managed to survive and keep in contact with the home country would be real interesting. Hopefully they don't import Plague later on :eek:

Don't some people claim that some Scottish guy visited the Americas before Columbus? And of course theres the supposed journey of St Brendan, as well as Leif Ericksson...So this way might be more plausible.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=59585&highlight=Vivaldi+Journeys
 
Now, if we take as given, both in OTL and the ATL that the Vivaldi brothers had the idea that they could reach the Indies by sailing west around the world, could we take as the POD that ITTL the brothers become aware, as Columbus did 200 years later OTL, of the evidence that suggests there are indeed lands of some kind to the west--and that evidence mostly comes from the northlands? And therefore they plan their expedition to go by the northwest route, hiring local vessels and expertise along the way. Thus they take a viable route in viable ships, learning of intermediate stops they can make thus extending their range, and so reach North America and perhaps explore a considerable distance down the shore (after trying to penetrate northward and giving up in that direction, finding no useful Northwest Passage--so turning south to look for a Southwest Passage instead). If they are indeed to return, at some point they have to cut their explorations short and plan on going back by the known route they came on (which is tricky as currents that favored them going west will oppose them going east--but maybe some fishermen they hired know the alternate best eastbound route too).

Anyway, they know they haven't yet found China or the Indies themselves, but they aren't sure there isn't a westward passage to be found to reach them.

They probably have a more accurate idea of the size of the world than Columbus did, because he was a victim of wishful thinking and jumping to the conclusion that the western lands his Northern informants whispered or told tall tales about were in fact the Indies he wanted to reach--he therefore cherry-picked the range of opinion in scholarship until he found a theory that said the world was small enough, and Eurasia big enough, to match that notion. But long before Columbus, the erroneous calculations the small version of Earth was based on were discredited and corrected and most opinion settled on an Earth of about its actual size or even in some cases even bigger!

So the Vivaldis won't think they are in the Indies themselves and will be looking for passages there, not expecting to actually reach the Indies unless they are very lucky.

But then again, it was quite difficult to determine longitude, and they might be confused as to how far west they had actually gone.
 
Europe does not have the technological or economic capacity to engage in such long range colonization efforts at this time. They couldn't even send enough European settlers into the Crusader states. Any colonies established are likely to be lost after the Black Death devastates the European population.

The Muslims still hold southern spain. The pagans in Lithuania are still fighting. And there is still interest in somehow getting the Crusader states back. Europe cannot divery many resources to any such scheme.

Also, unless the Vivaldi brothers bring back gold, which is unlikely, the Europeans are not going to see much value in even bothering.

This will probably be put into the same situation as the Norse colonies on Greenland. They were known to have existed at one point, but subsequently lost contact and forgotten.

However, in the early 1400s knowledge that some kind of land exists will spur a much earlier contact, perhaps by Portugal.
 
Thats the other thing I wondered: could galleys have even made the trip there and back? Let's assume they land in Brazil, like carlton_bach says, and patch their ships up there.

Galleys wouldn't stand a chance. Not enough supplies for the large crew. Even a grand galley would be hard-pressed to store enough food and water, let alone a war galley. Roundships, on the other hand, could make the trip easily enough. The problem is that you should know what you're doing if you head out into the Atlantic. If you don't, you have too many ways of getting lost or dying. In the other hand, if you do, you can make the crossing in ridiculously unseaworthy contraptions.
 
Europe does not have the technological or economic capacity to engage in such long range colonization efforts at this time. They couldn't even send enough European settlers into the Crusader states. Any colonies established are likely to be lost after the Black Death devastates the European population.

The Muslims still hold southern spain. The pagans in Lithuania are still fighting. And there is still interest in somehow getting the Crusader states back. Europe cannot divery many resources to any such scheme.

Also, unless the Vivaldi brothers bring back gold, which is unlikely, the Europeans are not going to see much value in even bothering.

This will probably be put into the same situation as the Norse colonies on Greenland. They were known to have existed at one point, but subsequently lost contact and forgotten.

However, in the early 1400s knowledge that some kind of land exists will spur a much earlier contact, perhaps by Portugal.

That's actually kind of what I was looking for...A few expeditions might come and go, looking for a route to the Indies and some missionaries might stay behind to convert the natives, but overall not a lot of settlement.

Galleys wouldn't stand a chance. Not enough supplies for the large crew. Even a grand galley would be hard-pressed to store enough food and water, let alone a war galley. Roundships, on the other hand, could make the trip easily enough. The problem is that you should know what you're doing if you head out into the Atlantic. If you don't, you have too many ways of getting lost or dying. In the other hand, if you do, you can make the crossing in ridiculously unseaworthy contraptions.

So maybe the POD is that they use something like a cog instead of galleys? Forgive me if this is implausible, but I'm extremely ignorant when it comes to naval history and such...
 
That's actually kind of what I was looking for...A few expeditions might come and go, looking for a route to the Indies and some missionaries might stay behind to convert the natives, but overall not a lot of settlement.

Well, not for the first century or so. There would be trade and preaching, and likely a great deal of interest on the part of the natives. Unfortunately for them, sooner or later the Europeans will treat them like they did the Lithuanians, the Prussians, the Saami and the Wends.

So maybe the POD is that they use something like a cog instead of galleys? Forgive me if this is implausible, but I'm extremely ignorant when it comes to naval history and such...

They'd most likely use a Mediterranean roundship, and that would workl all right. It's not as maneuverable as a caravel, but the caravel was pretty much designed to navigate difficult winds (like cruising down the African coast). In terms of navigation, a trade wind crossing from Europe to America is beginner's stuff by comparison.
 
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