The Vasa Empire: Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, and Russia under the Ikean Yoke

[Faeelin]

The title is somewhat flippant, but I'm starting to branch out and read about Scandinavian, Russian, and Polish history.

One thing that's striking me, given my cursory knowledge of the period, is how integrated the states were and how active Poland was. Unfortunately, Sigismund was a devout Catholic, while Sweden was hardly a land of ecumenical tolerance at this point. [1]

And then of course, in the Russian Time of troubles, Sigismund's son Władysław IV Vasa was proposed as Tsar (offering to convert to Orthodoxy), before Sigismund decided the crown would sit better upon his head. As a Catholic Tsar. [2]

I think the idea of an ecumenical family compact of Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, and Russia, ruling based on religious tolerance, intervening in the Thirty years War is sadly implausible. (Though may worth sketching out, just for Susano's reaction). But it seems to me that there is a great room for play in this region.

Thoughts?

[1] I don't think we should forget that a lot of Vasa's "evil" actions included opening up schools for Catholics and appointing Catholics to high posts.

[2] The Russian reaction is known as the rise of the Romanov dynasty.

 

[mattep74]

Intressting, so instead of marrying into German and Danish royal houses, the Swedish monarchy goes Habsburg and intermarry. With Sweden, Poland and Russia allies Sweden now suddenly dont have to spend endless wars in the East. Denmark is the looser in all of this. Norway becomes Swedish in 1650?

 

[Russian Sailor]

Wow I was alway's wondering about poland and Russia having a personal union. This is awesome

 

[imperialaquila]

I think a Swedish-Polish Vasa personal union is a lot more likely than incorporating Russia into it. Russia is too large and homogeneous, and Orthodoxy is too different from Lutheranism and Catholicism for a religiously conscious ruler to convert to.

A Vasa ruling Poland and calling in his Swedish relatives to crush the Polish nobility has great potential, IMO. If it develops into a personal union, then it will dominate Eastern Europe and the Baltic, at least until Russia modernizes.

Maybe you could have John III Vasa's second son, John, be elected King of Poland instead of his older brother Sigismund. Then, John could ask his brother for help against the Polish nobility if he is having problems dealing with them. The end result will probably be a lot of the freedoms of the Polish nobility being stripped away as a result of a revolt by the nobility. The liberum veto and the legal right to revolt will be gone, and the King will have lots of new powers and a hereditary succession. Then, you could have one of the lines of Vasa die out, leading to the other inheriting both Sweden and Poland into one kingdom.

 

[Polish Eagle]

The Union with Russia is difficult, but the Union with Sweden is more plausible, because one can fairly easily keep it Catholic. Originally, the conversion to Lutheranism was done so that the King of Sweden could select his own Archbishop and grab up the wealth of the monasteries. The way to do this is to have the Papal candidate conveniently die (trampled by horse, catch plague, mauled by wolves, be creative!) and the King's Candidate get Papal approval. This way, the Vasas remain Catholic and a more complete Personal Union with Poland is a possibility.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

I think the idea of an ecumenical family compact of Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, and Russia, ruling based on religious tolerance, intervening in the Thirty years War is sadly implausible. (Though may worth sketching out, just for Susano's reaction). But it seems to me that there is a great room for play in this region.

You mean something like the Triple Union (+ Sweden) from tormsen's Spanish Intervention in Imjin War TL?

Unlikely, but not impossible.
The Vasa Dynasty would need the luck of the 15/16 century Habsburgs and the respective realms sufficient common interests.

 

[thekingsguard]

A Nordic-Russian-Polish Empire?

I like the sound of that.

 

[Russian Sailor]

Maybe a super strong hapsburg empire and Ottoman empire could maybe encourage a personal union between the 3

 

[Polish Eagle]

Maybe a super strong hapsburg empire and Ottoman empire could maybe encourage a personal union between the 3

Thing is that the one of those prevents the other. Actually, the presence of strong Hapsburgs would drive Poland to the Ottomans and French, as Jan Sobieski was considering IOTL. The presence of strong Ottomans would only strengthen the Hapsburg-friendly branch of the Vasas which Jan Casimir represented, though I believe Polish Kings of the 16th century entertained notions of allying with Moscow against the Ottomans.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Have Sigismund defeat hertig Karl, and thus regain the Swedish crown. Should accomplish a Swedish- Polish union, but it would probably collapse, since Sigismund would try to force the Swedes to convert back to Catholicism.

 

[von Adler]

Really, as the history of the Kalmar Union show, the King goes to the richer, more populous part of the realm, and appoints tax collectors and officials from there. The Swedish peasantry, still very much free, land-owning and above all with the right to keep arms (and even the duty to defend their home county in case of enemy invasion) will rise against the increased encroachment of their rights, as the tax collectors, officials and Polish and Russian nobility will deal with the Swedish peasants as they are used to dealing with their own serfs.

So, the Swedish peasants will rise, probably lead and enthusiastically supported by Duke Karl (OTLs Karl IX) or his son, Gustav Adolf (OTLs Gustav II Adolf). Breaking off Sweden from this enormous Empire would be good policy for Denmark, Brandenburg, the Holy Roman Empire and probably the Netherlands and England too (a realm having monopoly on the tar, hemp and wood from the Baltic is bad news for the seafaring nations), so count on plenty of support for the rebels from there. If the rebels and seafaring nations plus Denmark control the Baltic (very likely, there really is nothing the Empire can do about it either.

 

[Thande]

I think having a triple religious basis would make it more stable than if they were just trying to do Orthodox + Catholic or Catholic + Protestant. It's harder for people to blame everything on the fact that the king is tolerating those vile heretics if there's two sets of them rather than one.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Yes, but we still forget the problem. Sigismund is a Catholic nutter, wanting to convert every Lutheran and Orthodox to Catholicism. That was why he lost Sweden, and why he couldn't keep Russia.

 

[Faeelin]

Yes, but we still forget the problem. Sigismund is a Catholic nutter, wanting to convert every Lutheran and Orthodox to Catholicism. That was why he lost Sweden, and why he couldn't keep Russia.

I admit that eliminating his jesuit education will cause all sorts of butterflies, but I don't see why he is some unique fixture.