The Vandalian Empire and the Arian Church

In the first few centuries after the death of Jesus many different sects of Christianity rose up. The orthodox church from constantinope, and the Roman Catholic church in Rome became the most dominant. At the council of Nicea, one bishop from Alexandria did not sign the Treaty. This bishop was named Arius. The did not believe in the Trinity doctrine, so he was proclaimed a heretic. He had a decent number of followers who went on missionary journeys into eastern germany. Many tribes converted to these beliefs which would come to be known as Arian Christianity. Some notable tribes that adopted these beliefs were the Visogoths, Ostrogoths, Lambards, and the Vandals. Through a series of events the Vandals landed themselves in northern africa, the breadbasket of the Roman Empire. They captured Carthage and made it there capitol. They gained recognition from Rome as the kingdom of Vandalia. Through the short existance of Vandalia they pillaged and waged war with Rome and the Byzantines until finally being destroyed by the Byzantines during the rule of Justinian.

The scenario I want to develope is what if the Vandals survied the reign of Justinian, until the Byzantines stopped trying to reunite Rome. I had an Image of the Vandalian Empire, spanning across north africa. I see it going from the west coast of Modern day Morrocco to the Nile at its greatest height, sometime around the First crusade. I also imagine the Vandals establishing an Arian church in the empire. There were a good deal of them when they first arrived, and the vandals were notorious for their brutal tactics, which would gain a stream of forced conversions, alowing the Arian church to grow. I imagine the capitol of the Vandalian Empire being in Carthage, and the center of the Arian church being in Alexandria.

How plausible is this scenario? If this scenario is at all plausible, how might this effect the spread of Islam? And what impact might this have on the crusades?
 
Arius was never a bishop, he was only a Priest. Of the bishops who were at the Council of Nicea (legend says there were 318 of these) there were TWO who disagreed with the final decisions of the council, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonus of Marmarica.
 
To get the Vandals to survive Justinian is plausible, to get them to survive Islam is quite asb.

Depends, they could survive if the Byzantine Legions in North Africa (particulary Egypt) would fight back instead of surrendering. A city like Alexandria could hold out for several years.
 
But Mohammed would be butterflied with a POD so early, so there may not be an Islam. The arabs would have the persians and byzantine to the east, and the vandals to the west.

The vandal empire itself would dissapear, like the bizantine, but the religion would stand. Note than the Visigoths in Hispania were arians, too, and if they had an arian empire to the south they probably would not return to Rome.

It's quite likely than cristianity would turn into several different Patriarchates, and the Patriarch of Rome would be One Among Equals and not the head of the church (a synod fo Patriarchs?)
 
But Mohammed would be butterflied with a POD so early, so there may not be an Islam. The arabs would have the persians and byzantine to the east, and the vandals to the west.

The vandal empire itself would dissapear, like the bizantine, but the religion would stand. Note than the Visigoths in Hispania were arians, too, and if they had an arian empire to the south they probably would not return to Rome.

It's quite likely than cristianity would turn into several different Patriarchates, and the Patriarch of Rome would be One Among Equals and not the head of the church (a synod fo Patriarchs?)

The Arian heresy was the religion of the invading Germanic tribes. The Germanics maintained separate legal system from the Romans, and the Arian heresy allowed them to maintain a separate religion as well. The main idea was to keep the Germanic tribes separate from the Roman population. The Ostrogoths, Vandals and Burgundians all got wiped out within a few generations of settling on Roman territory. The only Arian Germanic invader who maintained long-term control over their territory, the Visigoths, converted to Nicean Orthodoxy.

The Nicean Orthodoxy was the religion of the VAST majority of the former Roman Empire, East and West. In those areas where the Germanics ruled, they were in constant conflict with the Nicean Orthodox Church. The Arian heresy of the Germanic ruling class never attracted supporters among the populace.

I think the only way that you can get Arianism in some way accepted by the Niceans is if a Germanic-ruled state (say an Ostrogothic Italy that avoids Justinian's invasion) was able to get a Church Council that reconciles Arianism and Nicean Christianity. Allowing Gothic-language bibles and masses in exchange for Gothic acceptance of Nicean theology would seem to be the ticket, along with bringing the Gothic clergy into the Nicean structure.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Arian heresy was the religion of the invading Germanic tribes. The Germanics maintained separate legal system from the Romans, and the Arian heresy allowed them to maintain a separate religion as well. The main idea was to keep the Germanic tribes separate from the Roman population. The Ostrogoths, Vandals and Burgundians all got wiped out within a few generations of settling on Roman territory. The only Arian Germanic invader who maintained long-term control over their territory, the Visigoths, converted to Nicean Orthodoxy.

The Nicean Orthodoxy was the religion of the VAST majority of the former Roman Empire, East and West. In those areas where the Germanics ruled, they were in constant conflict with the Nicean Orthodox Church. The Arian heresy of the Germanic ruling class never attracted supporters among the populace.

I think the only way that you can get Arianism in some way accepted by the Niceans is if a Germanic-ruled state (say an Ostrogothic Italy that avoids Justinian's invasion) was able to get a Church Council that reconciles Arianism and Nicean Christianity. Allowing Gothic-language bibles and masses in exchange for Gothic acceptance of Nicean theology would seem to be the ticket, along with bringing the Gothic clergy into the Nicean structure.

I agree the Germanics tribes problem was that they was a small minority of the population, even strong and big tribes as the Langobards, Ostro- and Visigoths only made up less than 10% of the population in the territorium they owned, the Vandals was one of the smaller tribes and has likely made up 2-4% of Mahgrebs population. If we want Arianism to survive we either need to give the tribes a strong base or convert a tribe with a strong base.

Potential survivours:

Franks: If we could get the Franks to convert to Arianism, it would likely survive, from the Franks base along the Northen Rhine we could see it spread along with their settlements in Neustria and to lesser extend Aquitaine and Burgundy, and to their Germanic allies in Britain, and later with conquest to the East Rhinish Germanic tribes.

Burgunds: Less likely, but if we could make them less succesful after Aëtius, we could restrict their settlements to the area around lake Geneva and lake Neuchâtel, it could give them a strong Arian recruitment base in the potential later conquest. (Problem: Likely to be conquered by the Franks later)

Langobards: if they stayed in Pannovia without being conquered later, we could see them making Western Hungary Arian. (Problem: Few kept Pannovia for more than a few centuries, plus Langobards likely to convert later to get allies)
 
Not to nitpick, but the muslim conquerors of Hispania were also a small percentage of the (then christian) population... and soon enough most of Al-Andalus was muslim.
A "small minority", when they are on power, has a lot of weight -look at the way the cristians tried to conevrt the pagan kings in northern europe, forcing the entire realm to turn christian?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Not to nitpick, but the muslim conquerors of Hispania were also a small percentage of the (then christian) population... and soon enough most of Al-Andalus was muslim.
A "small minority", when they are on power, has a lot of weight -look at the way the cristians tried to conevrt the pagan kings in northern europe, forcing the entire realm to turn christian?

The Muslim had a strong base in the Berbers in North Africa plus a taxation system which favoured conversions.
 
Not until they converted them. If the Vandals convert them instead, they could be the Vandal base.

Something else the Vandals could do as well.

The Berber tribes had been exposed to the various sects of Christianity and none of them had been picked up en masse. It would appear that Islam was uniquely appealing to the Berbers, probably because it came from a people (Arabs) who were about as similar to them as one could get, and offering a chance for conquest and power that the Vandals, Visigoths and Byzantines never offered.

The Germanic tribes were not in any way innovative when it came to governance. The Germanic 'conquest' consisted of simply assumed control of Roman territory and allowing the pre-existing machinery of Roman government to function. The Franks might have created the more durable system in feudalism, but I think that this had more to do with the collapse of the machinery of Roman government in their territory and the Franks embrace of Nicean Orthodoxy.

Furthermore, the Vandals and other Arian Germanics don't want converts. The Germanics were the ruling elite and Arianism served as a means of keeping the Germanics culturally separate from the Roman populace they ruled (Germanic language-bible and masses being a major cornerstone of the continuing Germanic adherance to Arianism). Converts would mean expanding the ruling class, which would mean having to give the original membership a smaller piece of the pie, which was unacceptable.

Of all the Arian Germanics, the Vandals were the most screwed. They were a tiny part of the population, and they had managed by the time of Justinian's invasion to piss the other Germanic tribes off at them. At the time of Theodoric the Great's death (the Ostrogothic King of Italy) he was preparing to invade Vandal-occupied North Africa.

The only way to allow for the continued occupation of the West by the Arian Germanic tribes is:
A- adult male leadership in Italy post-Theodoric the Great;
B- maintaining the relationship between the Germanic tribal kings and Constantinople, ie the Germanic kings continues to kowtow to Constantinople which means continuing to derive legal authority to rule from his appointment as the Emperor's regent in Italy, North Africa, Spain, etc;
C- some kind of reconcilation between the Bishop of Rome and the Arian heresy.
 
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