The Utah War (Mormon War) escalates

ben0628

Banned
So basically in the late 1850's there was conflict between the extremely large Mormon population in Utah Territory and the Federal government. The US government was not very happy with the Mormons practicing polygamy and they were even more upset that the Mormons pretty much had complete political control over the territory. This as well as other problems caused president James Buchanan to replace the Mormon leader and Utah governor Brigham Young with a non-Mormon and sent an Army expedition of 2,500 men to secure Utah territory. This enraged the Mormon population, who were afraid of religious persecution and did not appreciate federal involvement within the territory. This caused the Mormons to rise up in rebellion, reform the Nauvoo Legion (a Mormon militia), and build fortifications in the mountain passes guarding Utah territory.

Fortunately in real life, major conflict was avoided with the exception of occasional Mormon raids on Federal supply trains for the army and a peaceful solution to the conflict was eventually found.

Now what if in a alternate history, a peaceful conflict was not found, and the Mormons attempted to fight for their independence? The Mormons had several advantages such as the terrain benefited defense, they had home field advantage, most people in Utah were Mormons and supported the cause, the war would be a logistics nightmare for the US government, the Native Americans could have potentially sided with the Mormons, and finally, the American Civil War would have started three years after this conflict did and the Mormons would have undoubtedly sided with the confederacy.

Could they have won, especially if they managed to hold out until the beginning of the American Civil War? Could Utah be an independent Mormon theocracy or would it have been eventually crushed?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The LDS had no interest in separatism in a political sense;

So basically in the late 1850's there was conflict between the extremely large Mormon population in Utah Territory and the Federal government. The US government was not very happy with the Mormons practicing polygamy and they were even more upset that the Mormons pretty much had complete political control over the territory. This as well as other problems caused president James Buchanan to replace the Mormon leader and Utah governor Brigham Young with a non-Mormon and sent an Army expedition of 2,500 men to secure Utah territory. This enraged the Mormon population, who were afraid of religious persecution and did not appreciate federal involvement within the territory. This caused the Mormons to rise up in rebellion, reform the Nauvoo Legion (a Mormon militia), and build fortifications in the mountain passes guarding Utah territory.

Fortunately in real life, major conflict was avoided with the exception of occasional Mormon raids on Federal supply trains for the army and a peaceful solution to the conflict was eventually found.

Now what if in a alternate history, a peaceful conflict was not found, and the Mormons attempted to fight for their independence? The Mormons had several advantages such as the terrain benefited defense, they had home field advantage, most people in Utah were Mormons and supported the cause, the war would be a logistics nightmare for the US government, the Native Americans could have potentially sided with the Mormons, and finally, the American Civil War would have started three years after this conflict did and the Mormons would have undoubtedly sided with the confederacy.

Could they have won, especially if they managed to hold out until the beginning of the American Civil War? Could Utah be an independent Mormon theocracy or would it have been eventually crushed?

The LDS had no interest in separatism in a political sense; and the LDS population in Utah Territory at this point amounted to less than 40,000.

They had no industry, were entirely dependent on trade from the US (east and west) for all manufactured goods of any complexity, including powder/shot/firearms, had worse relations with the Utes than the USG did (trying to pin Mountain Meadows on the Utes, for example), and generally were - quite obvously - quite unwilling to challenge the Army... as said, p. 226, by Coakley:


For all their success in frustrating the army after it settled in Utah, the Mormon leaders, for all their bombast, did shrink from a direct conflict with federal military force and ostensibly gave in to the demands of the government that were backed by this force. This perhaps justifies the conclusion of the modem historian of the conflict that the military expedition at least accomplished something:
Buchanan's Administration ... had in the face of a defiant sect peacefully placed a Gentile in the governor's office and posted a sizeable military garrison within the territory.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/030/30-13-1/CMH_Pub_30-13-1.pdf

The LDS were not suicidal, or even really millenarians by the time they were in Utah. Granted, they weren't the Quakers, but they also were not looking for a Masada.

Best,
 

ben0628

Banned
The LDS had no interest in separatism in a political sense

I understand that, which is why in reality they didn't resist and the conflict didn't escalate.

But that is the one thing that I am changing. What if they were deeply religious and willing to separate from a country that constantly persecuted them and seemed completely unwilling to accept them into society?

If that happened, could the Mormons win? And if they couldn't, how long could they hold out for? Until the Civil War? Would this improve their chances or would allying with the confederacy make a diplomatic solution less likely?
 

Lateknight

Banned
The LDS had no interest in separatism in a political sense; and the LDS population in Utah Territory at this point amounted to less than 40,000.

They had no industry, were entirely dependent on trade from the US (east and west) for all manufactured goods of any complexity, including powder/shot/firearms, had worse relations with the Utes than the USG did (trying to pin Mountain Meadows on the Utes, for example), and generally were - quite obvously - quite unwilling to challenge the Army... as said, p. 226, by Coakley:


For all their success in frustrating the army after it settled in Utah, the Mormon leaders, for all their bombast, did shrink from a direct conflict with federal military force and ostensibly gave in to the demands of the government that were backed by this force. This perhaps justifies the conclusion of the modem historian of the conflict that the military expedition at least accomplished something:
Buchanan's Administration ... had in the face of a defiant sect peacefully placed a Gentile in the governor's office and posted a sizeable military garrison within the territory.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/030/30-13-1/CMH_Pub_30-13-1.pdf

The LDS were not suicidal, or even really millenarians by the time they were in Utah. Granted, they weren't the Quakers, but they also were not looking for a Masada.

Best,

It really doesn't matter what the Mormons intents we're if the U.S Army had decided they were hostile. I think if they resisted the intial attack they would have been crushed barring some act of God.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Have you met many LDS?

I understand that, which is why in reality they didn't resist and the conflict didn't escalate. But that is the one thing that I am changing. 1) What if they were deeply religious and willing to separate from a country that constantly persecuted them and seemed completely unwilling to accept them into society?

2) If that happened, could the Mormons win? 3) And if they couldn't, how long could they hold out for? 4) Until the Civil War? 5) Would this improve their chances or would allying with the confederacy make a diplomatic solution less likely?

The whole point of LDS relations with secular goverment was - like so many minority groups - to be "more American than the Americans," essentially, because they knew - after Illinois and Missouri - they had no chance at resistance. That was the whole point of the exodus...

It's a constant trope in AH that the LDS were some sort of weird apocalyptic cult that was dying to (frankly) die in order to sustain the Confederacy ... which is nothing but a trope, pure and simple.

To get a death cult - which is what you're driving at - you're not going to find it with the LDS, and certainly not in the Nineteeth Century.

A large part of that is simply that LDS is not that sort of faith; but a significant element is that the LDS leaders (almost all of them Northern-born American citizens, don't forget) were well aware that in any contest with secular authority they would lose, as they had - essentially - in Illinois and Missouri.

1) No, they weren't; other faith groups might have been, but the LDS certainly were not.

2) No.

3) One winter.

4) No.

5) It is suicide.

Look, there were all of 40,000 people in Utah Territory in 1860; there were 254,000 enlistments credited to the states and territories west of the Mississippi and north of the Arkansas-Indian Territory line in 1816-65, not including men who joined the USCTs, USIHGs, or the regulars.

These included ~20,000 alone from states and territories west of Utah (California, Oregon, Nevada, and Washington Territory), and another 33,000 from Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, and New Mexico; Iowa alone provided 76,000 troops; Minnesota, some 24,000; and Missouri, another 109,000.

You do the math.

Best,
 
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