Still, I don't imagine such a victory to repeat ITTL for Russians without help from General Winter, not in the OTL scale I mean.
The Unwanted Clairvoyant. A different French strategy in WW1
- Thread starter jeandebueil
- Start date
Indeed, so far we have a stalemate only slightly advantaging the Russians (a bit less losses and slightly more territories taken from the Ottomans). For the Sublime Porte, it's a real plus from OTL: the Third Army still has its relatively well-trained infantry and is lead by a lucid and competent officer, a real opponent for Yudenich.
Much to my surprise it's still around here http://www.geocities.ws/drammos/sbtl1.html Fair warning that it's over 15 years old, the writing needs quite a lot of cleanup and looking at it from the present I'd had done quite a lot of things differently, my younger self had a fair bit of wargameritis back then for example. Still the basics should be more or less sound.
Looking forward to reading it!Much to my surprise it's still around here http://www.geocities.ws/drammos/sbtl1.html Fair warning that it's over 15 years old, the writing needs quite a lot of cleanup and looking at it from the present I'd had done quite a lot of things differently, my younger self had a fair bit of wargameritis back then for example. Still the basics should be more or less sound.
Would they even be willing to fight for the Entente, though? Notably more so than their Muslim neighbors?
The Entente generals think they could: the reality could be the same or different: I won't say more
What of the Austria-Hungarian fronts?
I mean, except for the oncoming operation on Cattaro, allusions to the campaign in Serbia, there hasn't been much said.
I believe you once said there was nothing really changed, but we are now four months into the war, and I'd like to know if you consider some recap covering these four months on Serbian and Galician theaters that have been much overlooked. It might be especially useful as we would come to appreciate the ripple effects of a better standing from Russians against Germans in Galicia, and of a better supply situation for Serbia.
I mean, except for the oncoming operation on Cattaro, allusions to the campaign in Serbia, there hasn't been much said.
I believe you once said there was nothing really changed, but we are now four months into the war, and I'd like to know if you consider some recap covering these four months on Serbian and Galician theaters that have been much overlooked. It might be especially useful as we would come to appreciate the ripple effects of a better standing from Russians against Germans in Galicia, and of a better supply situation for Serbia.
I don't think supply situation for Serbia would change significantly by this point, all the logistic chokepoints are still in place.
Galicia and Serbia are so far like OTL. The Russian soldiers who haven't died or been captured ITTL against Germany are still fighting German units so far, hence a relatively better Central Poland battle for Russia (still a solid German victory though). But less losses also mean that the completed Russian mobilization doesn't serve to replace dead/injured/captured men but to actually expand the size of the field armies, eventually creating new ones, even if it's not for now.
France has decided to be less stingy regarding its help for Serbia: so more shells and even medical help. But we're only at the beginning of a process which still needs time to have significant effects.
So yes, the change for the Eastern Front regarding A-H are here but still subtle and far less visible than the ones regarding Germany for the moment. Updates are planned regarding the area.
What I meant is that it may be difficult to follow events in the region for those not familiar. Even if that's largely OTL events, it feels like a void on the map of that TL's Great War, hence my thinking that deserves a recap, not necessarily now but when you will come to cover this region more in detail.
For instance, what's happening at Przemsyl? IOTL, the siege was interrupted in October because Russians were busy fighting Germans in Poland, but here, they have more reserves to throw in, and I imagine that could lead to an earlier surrender.
The Russian mobilization is completed in early November and primarily aimed at reinforcing Central Poland. So yes there are more Russians in mid-November in Galicia but the main fighting along the Carpathians is done and won't resumed for a moment because of the weather (rain and mud before snow). It's like in Anatolia, Russia is flexing its biceps for the next blow. But more men around Przemysl in November doesn't mean an earlier surrender or the fortress itself since it was a gun and howitzer's job, not a rifle and bayonet's one.
There will be changes on the Galicia and Serbian fronts because of the said butterflies but I won't say more. If you really want to know them, you can PM me if you like. Otherwise, my view of the situation is that ITTL doesn't need to be different from OTL about this part of ww1, until a near future of course.
Churchll was not yet "Sir Winston"; he received his knighthood in 1953.
1st-12th December 1914. Roughly 30 kilometres east of Cracow. Southern Poland
1st-12th December 1914. Between Bochnia and Limanowa, roughly 30 kilometres east of Krakow, Southern Poland
While the German Offensives in Eastern Prussia then Central Poland came to an end, the Austro-Hungarian Chief of the General Staff, Field Marshall von Hötzendorf, was already planning a counter-offensive of his own, aiming at enlarging the salient east of Cracow, a city dangerously close to the front and thus likely to fall if the Russians decided to renew their attacks after the fighting in Galicia since September.
The plan involved the KUK Fourth Army and a portion of the Third, the former being reinforced by the German 47th Reserve Division. Overall 16 Infantry and 3 Cavalry Divisions would attack from Bochnia and Limanowa, aiming at creating a breach between the Russian Third and Eighth Armies (which have replaced the Fourth and Fifth Armies in the area), resulting in the taking of Tarnow and the possible flanking of the Russian Third Army from the south.
On the first December, the offensive begins. The KUK XVII and XI Corps attack from Proszowice towards Wielka and Nieciecza in order to fix the Russian XI and IX Corps while the XIV Corps reinforced with the German 47th Division assaults the positions held by the Russian XXIII Corps, their southern flank covered by the KUK Cavalry Corps and its three divisions.
The initial results seem promising, the Russian XI and IX suffer heavy losses while the XXIII Corps, outnumbered and partially flanked, gradually falls back towards Tarnow. On the 4th, three days of fighting have resulted on the capture of 7000 Russian soldiers.
Further south, however, the situation isn’t as good: forced to attack through the valley between Iwkowa and Tuchow, the KUK VI Corps’ progression is stopped by the stubborn resistance of the Russian VIII Corps (Russian Eighth Army, General Brusilov). As for the KUK III Corps (KUK Third Army, General Boroevic), in spite of the support of the Polish Legion, it cannot break through the Russian lines, partially because of the hilly and densely wooded terrain which heavily favours the defensive positions of the Russian VI Siberian Corps, hastily sent to Stroze from Gorlice.
With its frontline secured, General Brusilov, informed of the difficult situation of the XXIII Corps, sends his recently formed XXIV Corps and four Cavalry Divisions. In the meantime, General Dimitriev, commander of the Russian Third Army, displaces his own reserves in order to counter the KUK’s advance: the X Corps is placed between the XI and IX Corps while the XXI Corps is sent to assist to XXIII Corps.
On the seventh December, the KUK offensive stalls a few kilometres west of Tarnow. At this moment, the Russian reinforcement of Brusilov have arrived and ready to counter-attack with the Russian Third Army. The next morning, around 20000 Cossacks and other Russian cavalrymen confront and progressively repulses the KUK Cavalry Corps towards Brzesko, thus creating a gap between the Austro-Hungarian Cavalry and the German 47th Division.
On the 8th, and while dawn is rising through the fog, the Russian 10th Cavalry and 3rd Caucasian Cossacks Division launch one of the largest cavalry charges of the war so far. Around 8000 horsemen crash against the exposed right flank of the German 47th Reserve Division. The fight degenerates into an extremely brutal fight at very close range, involving lengthy bursts of machinegun fire, spears and sabres. At one point, the German divisional artillery pounds the location of the fighting, hitting German and Russian soldiers alike. At 11:00 AM, the German Division’s Infantry is wiped out and its survivors often flee in disarray. Around 3000 Russian cavalrymen are killed or wounded but the German 17000 strong division has lost 4000 men killed or missing and more than 5000 captured, including numerous wounded.
This victory allows the Russian XXI and XXIV Corps to establish a gap between the KUK XIV and VI Corps, leading to the possible encirclement and destruction of the former and thus opening the road to Cracow. However, mediocre communications and worsening weather conditions mean a slow Russian progression. On the other hand, General Joseph Roth, commander of the KUK XIV Corps, manages to organize and orderly retreat and to maintain a constant connection with the remnants of the Cavalry Corps and General von Straussenburg’s VI Corps.
On the tenth, the Russians seize Brzesko. Two days later, Brochnia and Nowy Wisnicz fall. This marks the end of the Russian counter-offensive as exhaustion and lack of supplies begin to take their toll while the shortened Austro-Hungarian defensive line becomes stiffer. Further south, the combined efforts of Straussenburg and Boroevic and with the assistance of Polish Legion, mean that Iwkowa, Limanowa and Nowy Sacz remain Austro-Hungarian.
At the end of the day, the Offensive of early December is a significant failure: after some successes, the Austro-Hungarians have been forced to perform a 20 kilometres retreat, with a frontline now dangerously close from Cracow. If the city fell, then Upper Silesia and Moravia would be directly threatened.
The Russians have lost 30 000 men, including 7000 killed and 9000 captured, the Austro-Hungarians around 26000 (5000 killed and 3000 prisoners) while the German 47th Division, with 10000 men lost during the operations, must be sent back to the rear in emergency.
Green: KUK units and main attacks.
Red: German unit.
Blue and Purple: Russian units and counter-offensives.
Crimson: new frontline on 12th December.
Author's notes: This update is the result on the exchange with Galileo-034. After some time, I realized that the increased number of Russian troops reinforcing their Field Armies could have an impact on the main operations of December 1914 like Limanowa. So thanks to Galileo.
While the German Offensives in Eastern Prussia then Central Poland came to an end, the Austro-Hungarian Chief of the General Staff, Field Marshall von Hötzendorf, was already planning a counter-offensive of his own, aiming at enlarging the salient east of Cracow, a city dangerously close to the front and thus likely to fall if the Russians decided to renew their attacks after the fighting in Galicia since September.
The plan involved the KUK Fourth Army and a portion of the Third, the former being reinforced by the German 47th Reserve Division. Overall 16 Infantry and 3 Cavalry Divisions would attack from Bochnia and Limanowa, aiming at creating a breach between the Russian Third and Eighth Armies (which have replaced the Fourth and Fifth Armies in the area), resulting in the taking of Tarnow and the possible flanking of the Russian Third Army from the south.
On the first December, the offensive begins. The KUK XVII and XI Corps attack from Proszowice towards Wielka and Nieciecza in order to fix the Russian XI and IX Corps while the XIV Corps reinforced with the German 47th Division assaults the positions held by the Russian XXIII Corps, their southern flank covered by the KUK Cavalry Corps and its three divisions.
The initial results seem promising, the Russian XI and IX suffer heavy losses while the XXIII Corps, outnumbered and partially flanked, gradually falls back towards Tarnow. On the 4th, three days of fighting have resulted on the capture of 7000 Russian soldiers.
Further south, however, the situation isn’t as good: forced to attack through the valley between Iwkowa and Tuchow, the KUK VI Corps’ progression is stopped by the stubborn resistance of the Russian VIII Corps (Russian Eighth Army, General Brusilov). As for the KUK III Corps (KUK Third Army, General Boroevic), in spite of the support of the Polish Legion, it cannot break through the Russian lines, partially because of the hilly and densely wooded terrain which heavily favours the defensive positions of the Russian VI Siberian Corps, hastily sent to Stroze from Gorlice.
With its frontline secured, General Brusilov, informed of the difficult situation of the XXIII Corps, sends his recently formed XXIV Corps and four Cavalry Divisions. In the meantime, General Dimitriev, commander of the Russian Third Army, displaces his own reserves in order to counter the KUK’s advance: the X Corps is placed between the XI and IX Corps while the XXI Corps is sent to assist to XXIII Corps.
On the seventh December, the KUK offensive stalls a few kilometres west of Tarnow. At this moment, the Russian reinforcement of Brusilov have arrived and ready to counter-attack with the Russian Third Army. The next morning, around 20000 Cossacks and other Russian cavalrymen confront and progressively repulses the KUK Cavalry Corps towards Brzesko, thus creating a gap between the Austro-Hungarian Cavalry and the German 47th Division.
On the 8th, and while dawn is rising through the fog, the Russian 10th Cavalry and 3rd Caucasian Cossacks Division launch one of the largest cavalry charges of the war so far. Around 8000 horsemen crash against the exposed right flank of the German 47th Reserve Division. The fight degenerates into an extremely brutal fight at very close range, involving lengthy bursts of machinegun fire, spears and sabres. At one point, the German divisional artillery pounds the location of the fighting, hitting German and Russian soldiers alike. At 11:00 AM, the German Division’s Infantry is wiped out and its survivors often flee in disarray. Around 3000 Russian cavalrymen are killed or wounded but the German 17000 strong division has lost 4000 men killed or missing and more than 5000 captured, including numerous wounded.
This victory allows the Russian XXI and XXIV Corps to establish a gap between the KUK XIV and VI Corps, leading to the possible encirclement and destruction of the former and thus opening the road to Cracow. However, mediocre communications and worsening weather conditions mean a slow Russian progression. On the other hand, General Joseph Roth, commander of the KUK XIV Corps, manages to organize and orderly retreat and to maintain a constant connection with the remnants of the Cavalry Corps and General von Straussenburg’s VI Corps.
On the tenth, the Russians seize Brzesko. Two days later, Brochnia and Nowy Wisnicz fall. This marks the end of the Russian counter-offensive as exhaustion and lack of supplies begin to take their toll while the shortened Austro-Hungarian defensive line becomes stiffer. Further south, the combined efforts of Straussenburg and Boroevic and with the assistance of Polish Legion, mean that Iwkowa, Limanowa and Nowy Sacz remain Austro-Hungarian.
At the end of the day, the Offensive of early December is a significant failure: after some successes, the Austro-Hungarians have been forced to perform a 20 kilometres retreat, with a frontline now dangerously close from Cracow. If the city fell, then Upper Silesia and Moravia would be directly threatened.
The Russians have lost 30 000 men, including 7000 killed and 9000 captured, the Austro-Hungarians around 26000 (5000 killed and 3000 prisoners) while the German 47th Division, with 10000 men lost during the operations, must be sent back to the rear in emergency.
Green: KUK units and main attacks.
Red: German unit.
Blue and Purple: Russian units and counter-offensives.
Crimson: new frontline on 12th December.
Author's notes: This update is the result on the exchange with Galileo-034. After some time, I realized that the increased number of Russian troops reinforcing their Field Armies could have an impact on the main operations of December 1914 like Limanowa. So thanks to Galileo.
Great update. Et de rien.
Coming back on the siege of Przemysl, my question was more about whether or not the siege was broken in October as it was IOTL or continued uninterrupted. And so, the consequences of an uninterrupted siege (or not) on that front and the others if this was to affect other theaters.
Coming back on the siege of Przemysl, my question was more about whether or not the siege was broken in October as it was IOTL or continued uninterrupted. And so, the consequences of an uninterrupted siege (or not) on that front and the others if this was to affect other theaters.
Also, I'm looking into the time of these battles on a youtube channel about the Great War some might have heard of maybe, with week by week recaps:
Also, I cannot but wonder if the Russians will be able to exploit this recent development to eventually push through Dukla Pass as they are ITTL in a much better position to do so.
Well even if they push through Dukla pass... There are other passes till they reach lowlands. OTL 1944 Germans managed to hold another pass in Slovakia for some time - Dargov pass.
Slovak territory is very hard for military operations.
The siege has been briefly broken as OTL before being resumed. So Przemysl had no consequences on the Eastern Front.
I'm following this since 2016: very decent youtube channel indeed and I'm quite eager to discover its ww2 version
BTW, for those who wish to know more about ww1 small arms, I highly but really highly recommand the youtube channel C&Rsenal: they work with the Great War channel and are the best regarding history and use of infantry weapons. I watch it myself to get enough intel in order to introduce small changes about weaponry ITTL.
Kacko is right here: south of the dukla pass is 40 to 50 kilometres of densely wooded ridges and low mountains: it's practically the ww1 combination of Monte Cassino and the Hurtgen Forest. You have to go through this terrain to reach Kosice/Michalovce and the Hungarian plains. Considering Russia's offensive tactics in 1914 plus the presence of Boroevic in the area, it could exhaust and seriously bleed the Russian southern front before Ivanov can reach the plains.