The Unwanted Clairvoyant. A different French strategy in WW1
- Thread starter jeandebueil
- Start date
Neither force engage as, unlike France, England is not at war with Germany.
Presumably you mean the UK since at this point in time England hasn't had the ability to declare war since its loss of sovereignty in 1707.
You also say English ships but they are British, indeed at least Dublin was built in Scotland, and no doubt are crewed with British from across the Isles and Empire
Presumably you mean the UK since at this point in time England hasn't had the ability to declare war since its loss of sovereignty in 1707.
You also say English ships but they are British, indeed at least Dublin was built in Scotland, and no doubt are crewed with British from across the Isles and Empire
Scotland protests.
But, colloquially, you're absolutely right and this point is a very unimpressive hill to die on.
Precisely, and you are right. Which is why I put no real effort into this.
Currently the Russian Caucasus Army is 7 Infantry and 2 Cavalry Divisions strong and if the Stavka, fulfils its promess made to Yudenich, this number will reach 13 Infantry Divisions. Please note that the Russian Divisions number 16 battalions while their Ottoman counterparts number 9.
Of course, the Ottomans are enjoying some advantages of their own as well: Izzet Pasha, a experienced, lucid and cautious general is still leading the Third Army which will see its strengh grow up as well (already nine divisions plus several thousand irregulars used to mountain warfare) and is spared the Sarikamish tragical nonsense.
About the Armenians (and Greeks and Assyrians, let's not forget them), the absence of Sarikamish deprives Enver and Talat of a pretext (purely invented by Enver but still a pretext) to deal with the Armenian supposed disloyalty for now. The fate of these minorities are already written (not updates yet but several sketches).
Slightly better is the word. The fact that 300 000 men have been spared thanks to no Tannenberg and Masurian Lakes battles have allowed the Russian Army to grow significantly once its mobilization is complete. This allows the Stavka to be less stingy when it comes to attribute Army Corps and Divisions to various field armies.
However, as you can see, the Russian Army is still plagued with many serious flaws: poor coordination, mediocre to awful communications, mediocre to incompetent commanders (Rennenkampf being far too agressive for example), all of this preventing them to exploit interesting opportunities: a better led counter-offensive in Silesia would have wiped out Woyrsch AA, thus threatening the western outskirts of Cracow while forcing the Germans to plug the hole near Katowice or even Opole. Instead, the Russians, after a significant effort, have only managed to check German advance, even if the results are somewhat better than OTL.
ITTL Russia of 1914 is still far from being able to really steamroll the Germans but it's certain that the changes of ITTL can be interesting on the long run.
Greece is definitively pro-Entente ITTL and an ally-in-being (otherwise France would not take the risk of confirming the delivery of a modern dreadnought and to partially reequip the Greek Army) and Italy is already seriously weighing the pros and cons of the Triple Alliance to say the least (see previous updates). Bulgaria remains a cautious and difficult to predict actor. Romania is relatively friendly towards the Entente but is still waiting as well. For these last two countries, it's too soon to tell when or if they will join the war. For Bulgaria, war against the Ottoman Empire and negociations about territorial disputes are the keys for turning the nation into an ally.
Pure laziness from my part. Sometimes, it's just a way to avoid repeating the word "British" too many times. But yes, I will try to have the right formulas in the future. After all, our "Auld Ally" worths it...
There may be a sillier thing to try to start a fight about, but it will take a while to find it.
Life's too short, ya' know?
Because Army Corps used to be often labeled with roman numerals (see old military maps and reports). Arabic numbers were for Divisions and smaller units in general. So using roman numerals is like saying "British" instead of "English" if possible: plausibility and caring for details (almost to the point of being sometimes a little obsessed with those, I can admit).
GQG, Reims, France. 17th November 1914
GQG, Reims, France. 17th November 1914
General Dubail, tasked by General Michel to draft a plan of a raid against the Austro-Hungarian Harbour of Cattaro, finally presents his plan during a meeting attended by the commander-in-chief of the French Army and Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère, commander of the First Naval Army.
The main objectives of this operation are once again summarized:
1-To divert Austro-Hungarian resources away from the Serbian Front.
2-To establish a secondary supply road towards Montenegro then Serbia (in concomitance with the Belgrade-Salonika railroad already unofficially used for this purpose) by securing the port of Budva, only a few kilometres from Mount Lovcen.
3-If possible, seize the naval base of Cattaro, thus definitively locking the southern part of Adriatic Sea.
4-To force the Austro-Hungarian Fleet to go to battle, inflicting it a decisive decisive or at least heavy losses in the process.
The plan involves a close cooperation between the French Army and the Marine Nationale seconded by the British Mediterranean Fleet. It is planned to land around 12 000 men from the newly formed French Naval Infantry Brigade and the Foreign Legion March Regiment, an elite unit in fact numbering two infantry regiments.
These forces should be able to seize the two beaches near Budva before forming two columns which would destroyed the Forts Traste and Vrmac. From there the troops would progress through the valley towards Radanovici and ultimately Cattaro on one hand and towards Radovici and Mirista on the other, thus dismantling the eastern coastal defences of Cattaro.
Consequently, the totality of the French Marine Nationale heavy units in the Mediterranean Sea, with four dreadnoughts and fifteen pre-dreadnoughts and reinforced by three modern British battlecruisers would bombard Cattaro and provide artillery support to the landing forces if needed while waiting and hoping for an Austro-Hungarian sortie.
Ultimately, and even if the Austro-Hungarian Fleet refuses to battle, the landing force would form a Balkans Expeditionary Force (in French “Corps Expéditionnaire des Balkans”) initially numbering 20 000 men and aimed at protecting the Montenegrin Army’s southern flank.
At the end of the meeting, General Dubail evokes the three watchwords defining the operation: obscurity (the landing will occur a few hours before dawn), rapidity (the forts Traste and Kosmac must be secured 90 minutes after the landing) and secrecy (the raid must be a total surprise for anyone, which implies the necessity of keeping the Montenegrin ally in the dark until the very last moment).
At the end of the day, General Michel and Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère gives their formal approval for the action. The operation is planned for the 22nd day of December.
1 Fort Traste (150 officers and men, 4 100mm howitzers and 2 HMGs).
2 Fort Mamula (4 210mm mortars, 18 80mm guns).
3 Fort Ostro (4 210mm mortars, 4 90 mm guns and 4 80mm guns).
4 Fort Lustica (4 210mm mortars, 4 150 mm guns).
5 Forts Kobila and Kabal (4 210mm mortars and 4 150 mm guns).
6 Fort Spanjol (4 210mm mortars, 6 90mm guns).
7 Fort Radisevic (2 150mm guns, 4 210mm mortars).
8 Fort Gorazda (250 officers and men, 6 120mm mortars, 2 100mm guns and 5 HMGs).
9 Fort Kosmac (250 men, 4 90mm and 4 150 mm guns, 5 HMGs).
10 Fort Vrmac (180 officers and men, 8 120mm mortars and 10 100mm howitzers).
Blue circles: Fort Sanik and dependencies.
Green circle: torpedo battery.
Blue arrows: main French planned attacks and advances.
General Dubail, tasked by General Michel to draft a plan of a raid against the Austro-Hungarian Harbour of Cattaro, finally presents his plan during a meeting attended by the commander-in-chief of the French Army and Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère, commander of the First Naval Army.
The main objectives of this operation are once again summarized:
1-To divert Austro-Hungarian resources away from the Serbian Front.
2-To establish a secondary supply road towards Montenegro then Serbia (in concomitance with the Belgrade-Salonika railroad already unofficially used for this purpose) by securing the port of Budva, only a few kilometres from Mount Lovcen.
3-If possible, seize the naval base of Cattaro, thus definitively locking the southern part of Adriatic Sea.
4-To force the Austro-Hungarian Fleet to go to battle, inflicting it a decisive decisive or at least heavy losses in the process.
The plan involves a close cooperation between the French Army and the Marine Nationale seconded by the British Mediterranean Fleet. It is planned to land around 12 000 men from the newly formed French Naval Infantry Brigade and the Foreign Legion March Regiment, an elite unit in fact numbering two infantry regiments.
These forces should be able to seize the two beaches near Budva before forming two columns which would destroyed the Forts Traste and Vrmac. From there the troops would progress through the valley towards Radanovici and ultimately Cattaro on one hand and towards Radovici and Mirista on the other, thus dismantling the eastern coastal defences of Cattaro.
Consequently, the totality of the French Marine Nationale heavy units in the Mediterranean Sea, with four dreadnoughts and fifteen pre-dreadnoughts and reinforced by three modern British battlecruisers would bombard Cattaro and provide artillery support to the landing forces if needed while waiting and hoping for an Austro-Hungarian sortie.
Ultimately, and even if the Austro-Hungarian Fleet refuses to battle, the landing force would form a Balkans Expeditionary Force (in French “Corps Expéditionnaire des Balkans”) initially numbering 20 000 men and aimed at protecting the Montenegrin Army’s southern flank.
At the end of the meeting, General Dubail evokes the three watchwords defining the operation: obscurity (the landing will occur a few hours before dawn), rapidity (the forts Traste and Kosmac must be secured 90 minutes after the landing) and secrecy (the raid must be a total surprise for anyone, which implies the necessity of keeping the Montenegrin ally in the dark until the very last moment).
At the end of the day, General Michel and Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère gives their formal approval for the action. The operation is planned for the 22nd day of December.
1 Fort Traste (150 officers and men, 4 100mm howitzers and 2 HMGs).
2 Fort Mamula (4 210mm mortars, 18 80mm guns).
3 Fort Ostro (4 210mm mortars, 4 90 mm guns and 4 80mm guns).
4 Fort Lustica (4 210mm mortars, 4 150 mm guns).
5 Forts Kobila and Kabal (4 210mm mortars and 4 150 mm guns).
6 Fort Spanjol (4 210mm mortars, 6 90mm guns).
7 Fort Radisevic (2 150mm guns, 4 210mm mortars).
8 Fort Gorazda (250 officers and men, 6 120mm mortars, 2 100mm guns and 5 HMGs).
9 Fort Kosmac (250 men, 4 90mm and 4 150 mm guns, 5 HMGs).
10 Fort Vrmac (180 officers and men, 8 120mm mortars and 10 100mm howitzers).
Blue circles: Fort Sanik and dependencies.
Green circle: torpedo battery.
Blue arrows: main French planned attacks and advances.
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This is a VERY bold operation, a plan to hit the Austro-Hungarian fleet and from the sounds of it do a modern equivalent of a Napoleonic era 'cutting out' operation to maybe grab or destroy as many ships as possible. Its bold but it all goes up the spout if they are spotted. High risk indeed.
I can't see this turning into anything bit a Galipoli on even rougher terrain and nigh-unsuppliable. Plus, the KuKKM.
Budva is doable but Forts Goradza and Vrmac, thanks to the terrain and defensive positions mixing HMGs/howitzers/heavy mortars, are indeed a thougher nut to crack to say the least. But Mount Lovcen and the Montenegrin Army are only a few kilometres away so the comparison with Gallipoli, while indeed making sense to enlight the risks of this operation, isn't entirely adequate.
But see this as a consequence of August: a so far victorious Entente is thinking "why not" since it can use ressources OTL mainly devoted to the Western Front in order to fuel other fronts in its plan to wear down the CPs. Strategically, it makes sense even if the Entente might be a bit too confident (not victory disease but still). Tactically we shall see...
Boué de Lapeyrère is already seen by the French government as a man who did well with the Goeben (even if it was also the result of a successful cooperation with Milne and Troubridge) so one of the reasons which ultimately lead to his demise is already gone.
And what have you all with Gallipoli recently?
It'll be interesting to say the least, though I wonder if the Montenegrins can really support the landings. My knowledge of the Montenegrin involvement is blurry and limited, though.Budva is doable but Forts Goradza and Vrmac, thanks to the terrain and defensive positions mixing HMGs/howitzers/heavy mortars, are indeed a thougher nut to crack to say the least. But Mount Lovcen and the Montenegrin Army are only a few kilometres away so the comparison with Gallipoli, while indeed making sense to enlight the risks of this operation, isn't entirely adequate.
But see this as a consequence of August: a so far victorious Entente is thinking "why not" since it can use ressources OTL mainly devoted to the Western Front in order to fuel other fronts in its plan to wear down the CPs. Strategically, it makes sense even if the Entente might be a bit too confident (not victory disease but still). Tactically we shall see...
Boué de Lapeyrère is already seen by the French government as a man who did well with the Goeben (even if it was also the result of a successful cooperation with Milne and Troubridge) so one of the reasons which ultimately lead to his demise is already gone.
And what have you all with Gallipoli recently?
Gee, I wonder. It's WW1 and it's a massive, ambitious naval landing in treacherous waters with plenty of promises to knock out/distract a Central Power in the Mediterranean.