Coastal Defense duties ?Indeed on both accounts.
But you missed the real "Da fuq.." of the French navy during the Junne Ecole period.
Behold. MN Hoche.
She was not a good sea boat
Thats her in the Med on a calm sea and look how bad the waves are going over her bow.
The Unwanted Clairvoyant. A different French strategy in WW1
- Thread starter jeandebueil
- Start date
Hehe, good. Admittedly, A-H's late entry into the dread race is very much due to politicking. Seems similar for the French, although with a more doctrinal twist than just money and lack of interest.
It's almost a shame that the two navies are unlikely to meet outside of small skirmishes as iOTL. The KuK Navy was of ridiculously good quality considering Vienna's lack of interest in it.
TBH, that's what was decided OTL. The RN had to protect the Atlantic and the North Sea and the MN had to secure Western Mediterranean. ITTL, the MN is losing some fat and gaining a little more muscle but it will still remain the OTL MN with one or two exceptions: the shy and cute little brother who sometimes screams because he wants to be considered as a big boy. Despite some immense flaws, the RN remains the undisputed queen of the seas and an encounter between the MN alone and the Kaiserliche Marine alone would see the MN getting its butt spanked. Hard.
Indeed on both accounts.
But you missed the real "Da fuq.." of the French navy during the Junne Ecole period.
Behold. MN Hoche.
She was not a good sea boat
Thats her in the Med on a calm sea and look how bad the waves are going over her bow.
It's... It's... I don't have words for this. Well It's FRENCH. Bold to the point of being useless. Souchon wouldn't even dare to attack that "thing" because where's the honor in destroying such a fantastic ill-designed ship? But let's not troll the MN. It's mean to make fun of a handicapped person. And like said Archibald, perhaps a specific WW1 MN thread would be better to talk about it.
Deleted member 94680
I'm aware that's what was decided OTL, I was meaning a more concrete declaration by the British that they were committed to keeping the Channel open. OTL it wasn't well publicised (if at all) and many that knew about it considered it aspirational rather than set in stone. If the MN representatives manage to get a public declaration that the RN will enforce the Channel as a non-combat zone in the event of hostilities on the continent. "To protect the free movement of goods and trade" or some such legalistic bombast that when War is declared means the French don't have to worry about the northern coast at all. This way they can plan their navy as a Mediterranean force with aspirations to expand, rather than desperately trying to stretch limited resources across two theatres. OTL to the French the ability to move troops and supplies from their North African possessions unhindered was far more important than the ability to launch torpedo boat attacks on possible German battleship sorties.
Deleted member 94680
Very true. Thanks, you just gave me an idea
Really? Wow, that's fantastic - happy to contribute to such a well written TL.
If it's the idea I hope it is, the Brits will need some form of enticement to commit to anything so blatant, Entente or no Entente.
VIII
14 July 1912 (the update has been modified and completed thanks to advices provided by Lascaris).
The Parade of the French Army on the Champs-Elysées was honoured by the public presence of General Yakov Zhilinskiy, Chief-of-Staff of the Imperial Russian Army. He and his counterpart General Michel had met several times in private during the official visit of the Russian general in June and July. The two men had discussed of the land and naval plans of the two nations and General Michel had laid out his vision of the Russian participation in a war with Germany. The French chief-of-staff revealed to his Russian homologue that it was his firmest belief that the Germans would concentrate the vast majority of their military might in the opening phases of the war against the French Army, thus leaving their Eastern borders in a vulnerable position. “Our Army is strong and our plan solid”, claimed General Michel (who nonetheless preferred to hide the true defensive nature of his plan to the Russians), “We will stand our ground against the Prussians and will surprise them with multiple attacks”. Initially, Zhilinskiy had accepted the idea of a Russian offensive against Germany 14 days after the beginning of its mobilization but, impressed by the apparent preparedness and resolve of the French Army, he reconsidered the option and finally declared that the Russians would launch their own offensive three weeks after the beginning of their mobilization.
The Parade also saw the formal presentation of the new uniform designed by the Détaille and Dubail Commission to the public. The uniform was almost identical to the “Détaille outfit” but for one detail. The burgonet designed by the painter, too much visible and too much “German”, was replaced by the leather helmet of the Reseda Uniform with a bluish-grey colour instead of a green one. The reaction of the press and the public was mostly positive and, by October 1912, the “Modified Détaille outfit” was formally adopted by the French Army as its new standard uniform. It would equip all the French troops less the Colonial units which would wear mustard-khaki uniforms. For the military artist, this was a personal triumph... He would die a few weeks later.
Finally, the month of July saw negotiations for the selling of three recently decommissioned warships to foreign navies. Eventually, The Chilean Navy accepted to buy the pre-dreadnought battleship Brennus for 4 000 000 golden francs and quickly rebaptized it Almirante Riveros. The Greek Navy bought the more powerful Bouvet battleship for only 8 000 000 golden francs and renamed it Kanaris (the ship had cost 21 000 000 francs to the French Navy in 1896). Actually, the French Navy had briefly considered the idea to sell the Bouvet to the Chilean Navy instead, fearing for a moment that the move could antagonize the Ottomans, but the significant military interests that the French had in Greece convinced them to favour the Hellenic Navy in the end. On the top of that, the French Army agreed to sell 32 105mm model 1911 Schneider field guns to the Greeks. The guns would serve to form two new artillery regiments which were aimed to support the four existing Greek Infantry Divisions. The Greeks had also shown some interest for the Chauchat, whose secret was badly kept by the French Army at the very best. The French were initially reluctant but finally agreed to sell 150 LMGs (with 1 000 000 rounds) to the Greek Army. Indeed, the diplomatic tensions in the Balkans meant that the new weapon had now a good chance to reveal its true potential.
Finally, the Peruvian Navy, which had shown some interest in buying an armoured cruiser in the past, acquired the armoured cruiser Pothuau for 2 000 000 golden francs. As a result, the ship became the Commandante Aguirre. The money would serve to finance the construction of the fourth Bretagne-class battleship.
Yakov Zhilinskiy, Chief-of-Staff of the Imperial Russian Army.
The "Modified Détaille outfit", new standard uniform of the French Army with red trousers and bluish-grey puttees and coat. The black and gold burgonet has been replaced by a Reseda leather helmet.
The Reseda helmet. Its colour will be the same than coat and the puttees. Note that the copper decoration is designed to be removed in wartime and to be replaced with a far more discreet tricolor cockade.
The pre-dreadnought battleship Bouvet. Sold to Greece.
The pre-dreadnought battleship Brennus. Sold to Chile.
The armoured cruiser Pothuau. Sold to Peru.
The Parade of the French Army on the Champs-Elysées was honoured by the public presence of General Yakov Zhilinskiy, Chief-of-Staff of the Imperial Russian Army. He and his counterpart General Michel had met several times in private during the official visit of the Russian general in June and July. The two men had discussed of the land and naval plans of the two nations and General Michel had laid out his vision of the Russian participation in a war with Germany. The French chief-of-staff revealed to his Russian homologue that it was his firmest belief that the Germans would concentrate the vast majority of their military might in the opening phases of the war against the French Army, thus leaving their Eastern borders in a vulnerable position. “Our Army is strong and our plan solid”, claimed General Michel (who nonetheless preferred to hide the true defensive nature of his plan to the Russians), “We will stand our ground against the Prussians and will surprise them with multiple attacks”. Initially, Zhilinskiy had accepted the idea of a Russian offensive against Germany 14 days after the beginning of its mobilization but, impressed by the apparent preparedness and resolve of the French Army, he reconsidered the option and finally declared that the Russians would launch their own offensive three weeks after the beginning of their mobilization.
The Parade also saw the formal presentation of the new uniform designed by the Détaille and Dubail Commission to the public. The uniform was almost identical to the “Détaille outfit” but for one detail. The burgonet designed by the painter, too much visible and too much “German”, was replaced by the leather helmet of the Reseda Uniform with a bluish-grey colour instead of a green one. The reaction of the press and the public was mostly positive and, by October 1912, the “Modified Détaille outfit” was formally adopted by the French Army as its new standard uniform. It would equip all the French troops less the Colonial units which would wear mustard-khaki uniforms. For the military artist, this was a personal triumph... He would die a few weeks later.
Finally, the month of July saw negotiations for the selling of three recently decommissioned warships to foreign navies. Eventually, The Chilean Navy accepted to buy the pre-dreadnought battleship Brennus for 4 000 000 golden francs and quickly rebaptized it Almirante Riveros. The Greek Navy bought the more powerful Bouvet battleship for only 8 000 000 golden francs and renamed it Kanaris (the ship had cost 21 000 000 francs to the French Navy in 1896). Actually, the French Navy had briefly considered the idea to sell the Bouvet to the Chilean Navy instead, fearing for a moment that the move could antagonize the Ottomans, but the significant military interests that the French had in Greece convinced them to favour the Hellenic Navy in the end. On the top of that, the French Army agreed to sell 32 105mm model 1911 Schneider field guns to the Greeks. The guns would serve to form two new artillery regiments which were aimed to support the four existing Greek Infantry Divisions. The Greeks had also shown some interest for the Chauchat, whose secret was badly kept by the French Army at the very best. The French were initially reluctant but finally agreed to sell 150 LMGs (with 1 000 000 rounds) to the Greek Army. Indeed, the diplomatic tensions in the Balkans meant that the new weapon had now a good chance to reveal its true potential.
Finally, the Peruvian Navy, which had shown some interest in buying an armoured cruiser in the past, acquired the armoured cruiser Pothuau for 2 000 000 golden francs. As a result, the ship became the Commandante Aguirre. The money would serve to finance the construction of the fourth Bretagne-class battleship.
Yakov Zhilinskiy, Chief-of-Staff of the Imperial Russian Army.
The "Modified Détaille outfit", new standard uniform of the French Army with red trousers and bluish-grey puttees and coat. The black and gold burgonet has been replaced by a Reseda leather helmet.
The Reseda helmet. Its colour will be the same than coat and the puttees. Note that the copper decoration is designed to be removed in wartime and to be replaced with a far more discreet tricolor cockade.
The pre-dreadnought battleship Bouvet. Sold to Greece.
The pre-dreadnought battleship Brennus. Sold to Chile.
The armoured cruiser Pothuau. Sold to Peru.
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Ensign Kavaloudis hasn't even gotten born in 1912, he was killed in action in 1943, much less get a whole battleship named after him. And assuming the Greeks are interested, to the extend this appears to be a fire sale and the money for the reconstruction of the Hydras goes to that and the 1st Balkan war being about to start, the French foreign ministry will not be opposing selling Bouvet. Let's put it in perspective. France has just replaced wholesale all Greek field artillery, had a military mission reorganise the army, sold Greece subs and aircraft, is trying to sell it a dreadnought (what became Salamis) and next year will be loaning Greece half a billion frank and insisting on getting the order of a Breage class ship as part of the deal. Given all that they'll have qualms over selling the Greeks Bouvet? Not all that likely.
Come to think of it selling Bouvet at the relatively low price mentioned can be used as a sweetener for France to get the Salamis contract, which apparently the industry very much wanted. Which is a win win situation for all involved... besides the Germans that is. Should I suggest Miaoulis or Kanaris as a name?
A different thought. Very probably the French military mission in Greece, will get some 105mm (say 36) and Chauchat LMGs ordered on time. Which means they will be getting field tested along with Sneider 75s shortly...
Hey Jean !
So, your new TL, huh ? So far, I like what I'm seeing... A lot. Let's kick some Kaiserreich ass !
So, your new TL, huh ? So far, I like what I'm seeing... A lot. Let's kick some Kaiserreich ass !
rawr.
Archibald
Banned
it was an ironclad, not a battleship
God help those navies buying those French warships.
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Deleted member 94680
Better than the no protection of a Kepi. I'm sure the Adrian will make an appearance when the shrapnel and snipers start pinging around in trench warfare. No one had metal helmets at the start of WWI OTL, it was harsh experience that caused them to change the designs.
Thanks for the info! Will modify my update quite a bit to make it more plausible! If you have any info about Greece (hwo it would modify the relations with France for example), feel free to PM me, my knowledge about modern Greece is sadly quite low.
Welcome on board, my dear dragon!Hey Jean !
So, your new TL, huh ? So far, I like what I'm seeing... A lot. Let's kick some Kaiserreich ass !
rawr.
Stenz is right about it. I will add that the "boiled leather" helmet was the norm (see the german one in 1914). The idea of a steel helmet was not fully theorized before WW1. It was the numerous reports from hospitals, showing that the wounds in the head constituted the vast majority of the injuries, which convinced the French to (quickly) adopt the Adrian in 1915, the English and the Germans following the movement. It's "funny" to note that the "Détaille" helmet was made of steel for the cavalry and artillery troops but not the infantry! So unless Michel is Patricia Arquette and able to see the future, the French troops will have to deal with a blue reseda helmet in 1914.
IX
September 1912
The Castelnau Commission, presided by the General de Castelnau, is officially disbanded. Overall, the General de Castelnau is satisfied. His work has finally resulted into the creation of a Section du Chiffre, a small unit dedicated to military cryptography. The main mission of the new Section is to encode the secret messages sent by the Ministry of War and to decode the answers received. As a result, the Section is also in charge of the secret communications with its Russian and British counterparts. Finally, the small unit has the complex following mission: to break the codes of the German Army.
At the insistence of Major François Cartier -the new commander of the Section- the Ministry of War accepts to grant more funds to the unit. As a consequence, the Section du Chiffre is intended to number eight people: Major Cartier, Captain Marcel Givierge (Cartier’s deputy), one secretary, one officer in charge of the administration and four assistants. All members of the unit are coming from the Ecole Polytechnique.
November 1912
The Mittelmeer-Division of the German Kaiserliche Marine is created. Comprising the battlecruiser Geoben and the light cruiser Breslau, it reaches Constantinople on November the 15th. Several French diplomatic and intelligence services send reports to the French Army and Navy. As a war has broken out in the Balkans, the War Council concludes that Germany is probably trying to protect its interests in the region and thus doesn’t consider the news as particularly serious. Nevertheless, the diplomatic and intelligence units in the area are ordered to keep an eye on the two ships.
Author's notes: About these two events, This TL roughly follows what happened OTL but for one tiny detail: OTL, the Section du Chiffre only numbered four people instead of eight ITTL. Again, the Army, having a little more money ITTL thanks to Caillaux, is slightly more generous.
The Castelnau Commission, presided by the General de Castelnau, is officially disbanded. Overall, the General de Castelnau is satisfied. His work has finally resulted into the creation of a Section du Chiffre, a small unit dedicated to military cryptography. The main mission of the new Section is to encode the secret messages sent by the Ministry of War and to decode the answers received. As a result, the Section is also in charge of the secret communications with its Russian and British counterparts. Finally, the small unit has the complex following mission: to break the codes of the German Army.
At the insistence of Major François Cartier -the new commander of the Section- the Ministry of War accepts to grant more funds to the unit. As a consequence, the Section du Chiffre is intended to number eight people: Major Cartier, Captain Marcel Givierge (Cartier’s deputy), one secretary, one officer in charge of the administration and four assistants. All members of the unit are coming from the Ecole Polytechnique.
November 1912
The Mittelmeer-Division of the German Kaiserliche Marine is created. Comprising the battlecruiser Geoben and the light cruiser Breslau, it reaches Constantinople on November the 15th. Several French diplomatic and intelligence services send reports to the French Army and Navy. As a war has broken out in the Balkans, the War Council concludes that Germany is probably trying to protect its interests in the region and thus doesn’t consider the news as particularly serious. Nevertheless, the diplomatic and intelligence units in the area are ordered to keep an eye on the two ships.
Author's notes: About these two events, This TL roughly follows what happened OTL but for one tiny detail: OTL, the Section du Chiffre only numbered four people instead of eight ITTL. Again, the Army, having a little more money ITTL thanks to Caillaux, is slightly more generous.
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I think the American used Amerindian translators for cheap enemy-proof translation during WWII. Would the use of a simple code (Code Caesar would be the level of code I'm thinking of) but added on top of a passage to Basque, be potentially a satisfying way to secure communication ? After all, if you have a non-Indo-European language in your country, you might as well use it...