The Unwanted Clairvoyant. A different French strategy in WW1
- Thread starter jeandebueil
- Start date
Autocorrect on the phone
Should be
"A moi, a vous, a moi, a vous."
"To me, to you, to me, to you."
Because Mangin looks like one of the Chuckle Brothers.
Archibald
Banned
Hey Jean debueil, you should come and contribute to France Fights On. http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/forum/
Everybody's welcome !
Everybody's welcome !
Absolutely not
It's true that Mangin looks like the Chuckle Brothers (just looked pictures on the Internet) but... well, let's say that Mangin was far less funny than the Brothers. The dude was a very effective general but didn't care so much about the lives of his men (even if he was against the Offensive at the Utmost doctrine).Will do as soon as I get the chance!
VI
December 1911
In spite of a fruitful collaboration between M. Messimy and General Dubail in the Dubail Commission, the “Reseda uniform” is finally rejected by the French Army. Actually, the French Staff had supported the initiative but conservative MPs and rightist newspapers had managed to win over public opinion in order to save the national “garance” red trousers against the bleak Reseda, a bastardized version of the German feldgrau, the colour of the enemy. Nonetheless, the manoeuvres of September, which have seen the presentation of the Reseda uniform to the public, have some positive results. The “Aubry rucksack” (invented by the Adjutant Aubry from the 124th Infantry regiment in 1907) is adopted by the French Army as the new standard military rucksack to replace the cumbersome and uncomfortable “As de Carreau” backpack.
Despite its failure, the Dubail Commission isn’t disbanded and is allowed to continue its work.
The Reseda Uniform, ultimately rejected by the French Army
the "Aubry rucksack". Lighter and more ergonomic than the previous military rucksack used by the Army.
In spite of a fruitful collaboration between M. Messimy and General Dubail in the Dubail Commission, the “Reseda uniform” is finally rejected by the French Army. Actually, the French Staff had supported the initiative but conservative MPs and rightist newspapers had managed to win over public opinion in order to save the national “garance” red trousers against the bleak Reseda, a bastardized version of the German feldgrau, the colour of the enemy. Nonetheless, the manoeuvres of September, which have seen the presentation of the Reseda uniform to the public, have some positive results. The “Aubry rucksack” (invented by the Adjutant Aubry from the 124th Infantry regiment in 1907) is adopted by the French Army as the new standard military rucksack to replace the cumbersome and uncomfortable “As de Carreau” backpack.
Despite its failure, the Dubail Commission isn’t disbanded and is allowed to continue its work.
The Reseda Uniform, ultimately rejected by the French Army
the "Aubry rucksack". Lighter and more ergonomic than the previous military rucksack used by the Army.
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You're asking to the French to adopt something used by the British?! What kind of monster are you ?!
Seriously, the uniform issue is far from over (as OTL btw) and will return in 1912 (again as OTL).
Damn. I have officially fallen for the Réséda uniform. Such a good-looking green. Almost like late-Austro-Hungarian/WW2 Hungarian sort of green.
It'll only be the original color for a while. It'll be the color of the local dirt soon enough.
VII
March 1912
While the Army had finally received a sufficient financial support to go through its numerous projects, money was still lacking and some ambitions had to be scaled down for other services. That’s the reason why General Michel met Admiral Auguste Boué de Lapeyrère and M. Thomas Delcassé on several occasions. M. Thomas Delcassé was the current Minister of the Navy while Admiral de Lapeyrère was his predecessor and the current commander the First Squadron of the Line, a large unit concentrating the majority of the French pre-dreadnought battleships. Admiral de Lapeyrère had been a vocal opponent of the “Jeune Ecole” doctrine and had urged many times the French government to create a powerful and modern navy with numerous capital ships. In fact, the Naval Program of 1912, which was about to be submitted to the Parliament, was his brainchild, a brainchild accepted and supported by his successor Delcassé. This (ambitious) program planned to give to the French Navy (or “Marine Nationale”) 16 modern dreadnought battleships and 8 battlecruisers in 1920. Four Courbet-class battleships were already under construction and three Bretagne-class battleships were ordered and due to be laid down between May and November 1912.
The proposal of the Supreme War Council to the Navy was the following: the Army would not oppose to the bill in exchange for the decommissioning of several old, obsolete and costly to maintain warships. A quite tough bargaining occurred and the Navy finally obtained that the Army would also support the immediate order and construction of a fourth Bretagne-class ship for the summer 1912.
As a result, the Naval Program of 1912 was accepted by the Parliament on March the 30th. In exchange, the Navy accepted to decommission six pre-dreadnought battleships, five armoured cruisers, seven protected cruisers and three destroyers, all of them being more than 15 years old. These warships were intended to be sold to other navies or for scrap in a near future.
The same month, the Dubail Commission was continuing its work about the design and the possible adoption of a new uniform for the French Army. The new Minister of War, Alexandre Millerand, had also authorized the creation of a second Commission for the matter, presided by the famous Academic painter and military artist Edouard Détaille. The painter was proposing a bluish-grey uniform which would keep the red trousers. The new uniform was called the “Détaille outfit”. As for the Dubail Commission, it was still defending a slightly modified Reseda uniform with red trousers instead of green ones. But at the end of the month, on the personal request of General Michel, General Dubail accepted to merge his Commission with Détaille’s in order to came up with a unique design which would be presented to the public during the 14 July Parade.
Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère. Former Minister of the Navy and current commander of the powerful First Squadron of the Line.
The Courbet-class battleship. The first modern dreadnought battleship of the French Navy. The first ship of the class, the "Jean-Bart" is expected to be commissionned in June 1913 with a second one in November of the same year.
The Bretagne-class battleship. The ships are intended to be commissionned between 1915 and 1916. A fourth ship, the "Béarn" has been ordered.
The "Détaille outfit" (the left to the right, the third and last characters). You can see that the red trousers were designed to be at least partially (if not totally) hidden by the coat and the puttees in wartime. Note as well the presence of the helmet, roughly similar to a medieval burgonet.
While the Army had finally received a sufficient financial support to go through its numerous projects, money was still lacking and some ambitions had to be scaled down for other services. That’s the reason why General Michel met Admiral Auguste Boué de Lapeyrère and M. Thomas Delcassé on several occasions. M. Thomas Delcassé was the current Minister of the Navy while Admiral de Lapeyrère was his predecessor and the current commander the First Squadron of the Line, a large unit concentrating the majority of the French pre-dreadnought battleships. Admiral de Lapeyrère had been a vocal opponent of the “Jeune Ecole” doctrine and had urged many times the French government to create a powerful and modern navy with numerous capital ships. In fact, the Naval Program of 1912, which was about to be submitted to the Parliament, was his brainchild, a brainchild accepted and supported by his successor Delcassé. This (ambitious) program planned to give to the French Navy (or “Marine Nationale”) 16 modern dreadnought battleships and 8 battlecruisers in 1920. Four Courbet-class battleships were already under construction and three Bretagne-class battleships were ordered and due to be laid down between May and November 1912.
The proposal of the Supreme War Council to the Navy was the following: the Army would not oppose to the bill in exchange for the decommissioning of several old, obsolete and costly to maintain warships. A quite tough bargaining occurred and the Navy finally obtained that the Army would also support the immediate order and construction of a fourth Bretagne-class ship for the summer 1912.
As a result, the Naval Program of 1912 was accepted by the Parliament on March the 30th. In exchange, the Navy accepted to decommission six pre-dreadnought battleships, five armoured cruisers, seven protected cruisers and three destroyers, all of them being more than 15 years old. These warships were intended to be sold to other navies or for scrap in a near future.
The same month, the Dubail Commission was continuing its work about the design and the possible adoption of a new uniform for the French Army. The new Minister of War, Alexandre Millerand, had also authorized the creation of a second Commission for the matter, presided by the famous Academic painter and military artist Edouard Détaille. The painter was proposing a bluish-grey uniform which would keep the red trousers. The new uniform was called the “Détaille outfit”. As for the Dubail Commission, it was still defending a slightly modified Reseda uniform with red trousers instead of green ones. But at the end of the month, on the personal request of General Michel, General Dubail accepted to merge his Commission with Détaille’s in order to came up with a unique design which would be presented to the public during the 14 July Parade.
Admiral Boué de Lapeyrère. Former Minister of the Navy and current commander of the powerful First Squadron of the Line.
The Courbet-class battleship. The first modern dreadnought battleship of the French Navy. The first ship of the class, the "Jean-Bart" is expected to be commissionned in June 1913 with a second one in November of the same year.
The Bretagne-class battleship. The ships are intended to be commissionned between 1915 and 1916. A fourth ship, the "Béarn" has been ordered.
The "Détaille outfit" (the left to the right, the third and last characters). You can see that the red trousers were designed to be at least partially (if not totally) hidden by the coat and the puttees in wartime. Note as well the presence of the helmet, roughly similar to a medieval burgonet.
Indeed, it was a sober and elegant uniform. A shame it wasn't adopted. But like I said, if the French are going to be less dumb ITTL, that doesn't mean they going to be supremely smart.
You're correct. In fact, the "Bleu Horizon"uniform was designed for that purpose. The French Staff thought that the colour would "catch" the dirt and the mud on the battlefield. On that point, they were quite right.
Decent compromise. Maybe trousers matching the jacket are introduced in due course with the red ones retained for parade dress.
Archibald
Banned
The French pre-dreads were abysmally crappy and shitty, so good riddance. French ACR were better but the whole concept was obsolete since Dreadnought. Albeit a case could be made they made perfect expendable targets for the Turks guns in the Dardanelles. I'm quite sure the RN has plenty of old pre-dreads to fill the gaps.
The ships were indeed expendable but the crews (which were very well-trained according to the RN and thanks to Lapeyrère's energetic policy) weren't. ITTL, these crews will be on modern dreadnoughts battleships instead of crappy ships (since the decommissiong just freed over 9000 sailors, 9000 sailors the Navy won't have to recruit, meaning that a lot of money will be saved). But fear not, the French Navy still has 18 relatively modern pre-dread battleships they can use as baits