The Union of Hungary-Lithuania

Post by user 'linas' in forum.istorija.lt (original thread here):

I remember that once in the Russian part of this forum, the Hungarian member Andras Zoltan expressed himself somewhere - oh, if only the Hungarians invited Jogaila to the throne... I'd say that it sounded with a little bit of disappointment. So - I'm interested, what do the members of the forum think of this alternative to a union with Poland? Say, if in 1385, the bride is not Hedwig, but Mary, and she is brought to Krewo by Hungarian followers. Obviously, regarding "what would have happened" we can only speculate instead of calculate, but it's still interesting to hear "what would be different". What joys me in this situation is that Hungarians are not Slavs, so there is little chance of "Magyarization". From the end of the 14th century, the Hungarians were involved in wars against Turks, so Lithuania would have to be pulled into that conflict as well. Would Žalgiris be possible while in a union with Hungary? On the other hand, Hungary was a stronger partner than Poland at this time, would its influence be enough to stop the wars with the Order? How would central and eastern Europe be different if the Hungarians arrived to Krewo in 1385?

Obviously, this is a very unlikely prospect, but, on the other hand, not an implausible one - Budapest is not much farther away from Vilnius than Krakow is, and there are examples of personal unions in European history where the members are separated by a large distance (Canute's union of England, Denmark and Sweden, or Charles V's empire). Sure, none of them were nearly as long enduring as the Polish-Lithuanian union, but the Polish-Lithuanian union is an exception than the rule regarding PU endurance.

So what do you think?
 
This is very interesting. It certainly could have changed the history of Eastern Europe forever. Perhaps Poland will have an alliance with the Federation due to the Polish-Hungarian historical friendship. This alliance would be tremendously powerful.
 

Toraach

Banned
No slavinization in the country with 90% of slavic population? Serious wishful thinking.

This wont last long. A distance, not a big common border. Diffrent areas of interest. And a lack of common enemy. Even in P-L Union the real union started 16th century that was a loose thing many times broken in 15th.
 

Toraach

Banned
This is very interesting. It certainly could have changed the history of Eastern Europe forever. Perhaps Poland will have an alliance with the Federation due to the Polish-Hungarian historical friendship. This alliance would be tremendously powerful.
A personal or dynastic union during this time did not simply add power and agregate it to create a tremedously powerful alliance. In 1370 there was a union of Poland and Hungary. Both countries in good shape and under a strong leader. This caused only problems in Poland and nothing in Hungary. the only one with some gain was Louis the king with his "prestige points".
 
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What about ruthenization?
Ruthenization is a very different process, as it was from down to top rather than top-down like Polonization, and it would have happened in some shape in most scenarios.

In addition, during the time period discussed, Ruthenization was mostly limited to Lithuanian nobility in Ruthenian lands, it started in full force in the 17th-18th centuries.
 
So Mary inherits both Hungary and Poland, then she proceeds to marry to Jogaila, which results in this huge Central-Eastern European empire, huh?

To achieve this though, we have to get rid of Motherqueen Elisabeth, because her interferences in the matters of the kingdom really had some nasty effects on the reputation of Mary's reign. Let's say she dies in 1381 for some reason. Maybe with this strenghtened position, Charles of Naples won't attempt to take the Hungarian throne, which could save us considerable amount of time.

With Mary's situation in Hungary being more stable, she could make the trip to Poland to accept the Polish throne without problem. While in Poland then, she could be convinced to consider the marriage with Jogaila. She would have to gain the support of the Hungarian barons for such decision though.

If this all goes well, then by 1385, we have our tripartite Jagiello-Anjou Empire in Central/Eastern Europe.

An interesting sidenote of this sceniario is however, that Halych/Galiczia would remain part of Hungary instead of Poland.

Where would be the capital of this huge empire though? Krakow looks like a reasonable choice, but maybe resideing in Hungary for the first few years could be essential to maintain the support of the barons against either Charles or Ladislaus of Anjou.

By the way! In this proposed sceniario, Charles of Anjou might live longer. What are the future implications of this?
 
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