The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
-Hampton, VA. I know I shouldn't be stumping for my home state so much, but it just rubs me the wrong way that, in terms of GDP, population size, geography, franchise growth, etc. Virginia has all the right attributes to have at least one Major League sports franchise...and yet, we don't IOTL (and no, the Redskins are NOT my state's team). I'm flexible on the actual city (I picked Hampton since, as a port town, it has the infrastructure to move teams and fans around easily, and IOTL the VA-Beach area has had some success in infrastructure expansion. Plus, it's that much farther away from both the Capital and Baltimore), but I beseech you give it some thought
IOTL, Virginia is by far the State with the largest population and no pro sports team. Virginia is 12th in population at 8 million, the next largest state with no pro sports team is Alabama at about 4.8 Million. But that is to some degree a fluke since it is quite easy to imagine the Redskins or the Nationals with a Stadium at Potomac Yard just north of Alexandria,VA. (New Jersey is an example of a state that is sort of in a similiar situation, it got a suburban stadium of NYC (Giants/Jets/Devils and Formerly the Nets) and didn't get any from the Philly teams.
However, IMO, this shouldn't be looked at as *states* it should be looked at as Metropolitan areas, (for example St. Louis and KC with or without teams don't really affect each other. So using the 100 largest Metropolitan Statistical Areas according to the US Census, VA Beach/Norfolk is 37th and Richmond is 45th (DC is 7th).
The only MSAs without a Pro team larger than Richmond are Riverside/San-Bernadino at 12th(which would be considered part of the LA Sports market, I think), San Juan at 22nd (Issues with language, IMO), Las Vegas at 31st (Gambling and Newness), Austin at 35th (UTexas rules), Providence, RI at 39th (Closeness to Boston) and Louisville at 43rd(?).
Seems communism really hasn't gotten off the ground here. I wonder what the general opinion of it is around the world?
Great update, MacGregor! I like how Connor has shaped out as a president; he had his flaws to be sure, but fundamentally I believe he was a good man and an effective Commander in Chief (I could say the same about several so-called "bad presidents", but I digress).
And man, Ricky Raccoon is awesome
EDIT: I think that NRA could work for the rugby association in TTL's USA (I wonder what OTL's NRA would call themselves here)
Good points; I would point out, however, that Richmond may well boast an even bigger MSA than IOTL due to the fact it was never devastated during the Civil War, but rather fell almost at the outset (close to it, anyway). So for all we know, the MSA there is even bigger than OTL as there would've been relatively little reconstruction to be had. And I don't know if this was the attitude back then, but nowadays you can tell a major distinction exists between Northern Virginians, and everybody else. As one of those "everybody else's", the notion of relying on a D.C. team to represent me in professional sports is anathema (as it is for many like me).
If it's impossible for Virginia to have its own individual team, then fine (although the Carolina Panthers came into being, and how far down on the list are they? Especially since it's really NC's team, not South Carolina's), but I would at least beg not to be bunched into the District's fanbase ITTL. I know I'm going on and on about this whole "theirs, not ours" thing, but to me that's part of the POINT about professional sports. It's all about town pride, about bragging how much better your home is than theirs (but all in good fun, of course), and just having a good time in the process.
FWIW, I've always felt that New Jersey should have its own franchise as well (there's certainly enough people there, and just try to tell somebody from Jersey that they're the same as New Yorkers...), and ditto with Louisville. Las Vegas doesn't exist, although Halleckville, AZ does. I'd say the Inland Empire should principally merit its own team, if not for the fact that San Francisco and Los Angeles already have a club each (and two teams in one state is more than enough, thank you), plus we don't know whether it'd be as populated ITTL as OTL. Providence certainly has enough people, but I'm not sure they'd be able to accommodate building a new stadium, garnering endorsements or sufficient concessions for spectators, etc. Austin's out for the same reason as Riverside-San Bernadino in that Texas already has two teams, and I wouldn't see a problem with San Juan developing their own club other than I can't say whether rugby'd be sufficiently popular enough to warrant a team.
And man, Ricky Raccoon is awesome
EDIT: I think that NRA could work for the rugby association in TTL's USA (I wonder what OTL's NRA would call themselves here
)Good points; I would point out, however, that Richmond may well boast an even bigger MSA than IOTL due to the fact it was never devastated during the Civil War, but rather fell almost at the outset (close to it, anyway). So for all we know, the MSA there is even bigger than OTL as there would've been relatively little reconstruction to be had. And I don't know if this was the attitude back then, but nowadays you can tell a major distinction exists between Northern Virginians, and everybody else. As one of those "everybody else's", the notion of relying on a D.C. team to represent me in professional sports is anathema (as it is for many like me).
If it's impossible for Virginia to have its own individual team, then fine (although the Carolina Panthers came into being, and how far down on the list are they? Especially since it's really NC's team, not South Carolina's), but I would at least beg not to be bunched into the District's fanbase ITTL. I know I'm going on and on about this whole "theirs, not ours" thing, but to me that's part of the POINT about professional sports. It's all about town pride, about bragging how much better your home is than theirs (but all in good fun, of course
), and just having a good time in the process.FWIW, I've always felt that New Jersey should have its own franchise as well (there's certainly enough people there, and just try to tell somebody from Jersey that they're the same as New Yorkers...), and ditto with Louisville. Las Vegas doesn't exist, although Halleckville, AZ does. I'd say the Inland Empire should principally merit its own team, if not for the fact that San Francisco and Los Angeles already have a club each (and two teams in one state is more than enough, thank you), plus we don't know whether it'd be as populated ITTL as OTL. Providence certainly has enough people, but I'm not sure they'd be able to accommodate building a new stadium, garnering endorsements or sufficient concessions for spectators, etc. Austin's out for the same reason as Riverside-San Bernadino in that Texas already has two teams, and I wouldn't see a problem with San Juan developing their own club other than I can't say whether rugby'd be sufficiently popular enough to warrant a team.
Nice update, Mac. I like the idea of the NRA being a sports association ITTL.
As for states with "too many teams," I don't think that will matter to the people making money if they think there is another market.
Also, I can almost assure you LA and SF will be at least close to being as big as OTL, unless you find a way to butterfly in some major earthquake-fear compared to OTL or something like that.
As for states with "too many teams," I don't think that will matter to the people making money if they think there is another market.
Also, I can almost assure you LA and SF will be at least close to being as big as OTL, unless you find a way to butterfly in some major earthquake-fear compared to OTL or something like that.
Good points; I would point out, however, that Richmond may well boast an even bigger MSA than IOTL due to the fact it was never devastated during the Civil War, but rather fell almost at the outset (close to it, anyway). So for all we know, the MSA there is even bigger than OTL as there would've been relatively little reconstruction to be had. And I don't know if this was the attitude back then, but nowadays you can tell a major distinction exists between Northern Virginians, and everybody else. As one of those "everybody else's", the notion of relying on a D.C. team to represent me in professional sports is anathema (as it is for many like me).
If it's impossible for Virginia to have its own individual team, then fine (although the Carolina Panthers came into being, and how far down on the list are they? Especially since it's really NC's team, not South Carolina's), but I would at least beg not to be bunched into the District's fanbase ITTL. I know I'm going on and on about this whole "theirs, not ours" thing, but to me that's part of the POINT about professional sports. It's all about town pride, about bragging how much better your home is than theirs (but all in good fun, of course
FWIW, I've always felt that New Jersey should have its own franchise as well (there's certainly enough people there, and just try to tell somebody from Jersey that they're the same as New Yorkers...), and ditto with Louisville. Las Vegas doesn't exist, although Halleckville, AZ does. I'd say the Inland Empire should principally merit its own team, if not for the fact that San Francisco and Los Angeles already have a club each (and two teams in one state is more than enough, thank you), plus we don't know whether it'd be as populated ITTL as OTL. Providence certainly has enough people, but I'm not sure they'd be able to accommodate building a new stadium, garnering endorsements or sufficient concessions for spectators, etc. Austin's out for the same reason as Riverside-San Bernadino in that Texas already has two teams, and I wouldn't see a problem with San Juan developing their own club other than I can't say whether rugby'd be sufficiently popular enough to warrant a team.
I doubt that Richmond would much bigger ITTL, the gain due to being the capital and the destruction more or less cancelled out IOTL. Richmond City was the 25th largest City in the US in 1860, and the 24th largest city in 1870. See http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab09.txt and
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab10.txt
Different than MSA's of course, but helps show that the OTL Civil War didn't inhibit that much.
Charlotte is #25 MSA today
Why would Richmond be even less likely to want to be part of DC's fanbase ITTL?
I think the true NJ team is the Devils, part of the question though is where would a "true NJ team" have a stadium/arena? Atlantic City?
You figure that New York arguably as three Football teams (NYG, NYJ, Bills), California had three football teams (Raiders, Rams and Chargers) and California as four Basketball teams (Clippers, Lakers, GSW and Sac Kings) and four baseball teams (LAD, LAA, Giants and A's). Florida has three football team as well (Dolphins, Bucs and Jags)
I'd thought that the war had been part of the reason the city declined, my mistake
Part of the reason the Redskins exists at all is that the Boston Braves (later the Redskins) moved down to D.C. at the behest of George Preston Marshall in 1937, after he had talked three partners into forming the team in Boston in 1932. That's plenty of leeway to butterfly away his establishment of the team there; for example, his overtly racist attitude in the more-egalitarian-than-OTL US may see his efforts to establish an alt-Redskins fall on deaf ears, which given that the team's success after the 1940s was mostly due to advertising on his part on the team's behalf.
It should be noted that the Redskins were essentially the Southern US' first NFL team, and Marshall made damn sure they stayed loyal since they had no competition at the time in that part of the country. Hell, the main reason why they've started to wane in popularity down there was because other cities started their own clubs (and even now, the 'Skins have solid fanbases in much of the region). And while it makes sense that Baltimore would also have its own team due to the city's size, I don't see why another team couldn't be established in a smaller city, IF that D.C. team can be undercut (case in point, the Green Bay Packers...who the Hell ever heard of Green Bay before they got an NFL team?)
Yeah, communists are still very much despised ITTL. The failure of the Hungarian Revolution has limited the Communists mostly to fringes of political life although in some countries the communist still maintain sizable movements. Many communists have defected in favor of socialism or Krulikism /technocray.
Nice update, Mac. I like the idea of the NRA being a sports association ITTL.
Especially if they're dominated by an IOC-like pacifist crowd who support healthy competition between nations and peaceful international discourse.
Which brings me to a question: are franchises still the dominant form of elite sporting club ITTL, or are actual association clubs more common even on higher levels?
Not great. Conservative elements in Persian society and the military are causing serious rumblings in the government. As mentioned the Persian military is trying to establish and "independent" Baluchistan in post-British India. Generally speaking the ruling Qajar Dynasty maintains a pro-Russian anti-British foreign policy.
Nice update, Mac. I like the idea of the NRA being a sports association ITTL.
As for states with "too many teams," I don't think that will matter to the people making money if they think there is another market.
Also, I can almost assure you LA and SF will be at least close to being as big as OTL, unless you find a way to butterfly in some major earthquake-fear compared to OTL or something like that.
I did a thread once trying to get the SFO bay area to be significantly smaller than OTL without a Nuke and with the Earthquakes at the same date and size as OTL. Very difficult...
I'd thought that the war had been part of the reason the city declined, my mistake
Part of the reason the Redskins exists at all is that the Boston Braves (later the Redskins) moved down to D.C. at the behest of George Preston Marshall in 1937, after he had talked three partners into forming the team in Boston in 1932. That's plenty of leeway to butterfly away his establishment of the team there; for example, his overtly racist attitude in the more-egalitarian-than-OTL US may see his efforts to establish an alt-Redskins fall on deaf ears, which given that the team's success after the 1940s was mostly due to advertising on his part on the team's behalf.
It should be noted that the Redskins were essentially the Southern US' first NFL team, and Marshall made damn sure they stayed loyal since they had no competition at the time in that part of the country. Hell, the main reason why they've started to wane in popularity down there was because other cities started their own clubs (and even now, the 'Skins have solid fanbases in much of the region). And while it makes sense that Baltimore would also have its own team due to the city's size, I don't see why another team couldn't be established in a smaller city, IF that D.C. team can be undercut (case in point, the Green Bay Packers...who the Hell ever heard of Green Bay before they got an NFL team?)
Well, remember that the Redskins name existed in Boston because the Boston Braves (who later moved to Atlanta) were there. And unless the TL causes a different view toward Native Americans than this one (remember it isn't until the 1980s IOTL that objections to Native American themed team names and symbols came into being.
And remember, Marshal isn't the most racist team owner in DC, that "honor" goes to the owner of the first Washington Senators to leave town (the one to Minneapolis)
"I'll tell you why we came to Minnesota. It was when we found out you only had 15,000 blacks here. Black people don't go to ballgames, but they'll fill up a rassling ring and put up such a chant it'll scare you to death. We came here because you've got good, hardworking white people here."
Um, Green Bay was there from the Beginning of the NFL in 1922. And the NFL in 1922 had some *really* small towns in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_NFL_season
Change the early history of the league and we end might end up with Louisville Brecks or the Racine Legion in the NFL today. I'd reverse the statement that you made. Who the hell heard of Green Bay before the NFL expanded to the point the National News covered the League.
Indeed; all I can think of is to have even more damage in the 1906 earthquake.
-True, but Native American relations aren't the same ITTL (after re-reading the Custer portion, not to mention the fact that Sitting Bull managed to fight more effectively for Native rights than OTL), so the whole "'80s objection movement" thing doesn't really hold water given the more enlightened attitude of the public compared to OTL.
-Potato-potahto, the point is that Green Bay has always been a small town, and yet they have a franchise simply by being on the ground floor of the League. Doesn't change the fact that, as an MSA, they are insignificant (not even in the top 100), and YET they manage to field a team of considerable quality. If they can pull it off, why not places like Louisville, or indeed, Richmond? Hell, Curly Lambeau started off the team with gear purchased through a meat packing company's funds.
Thread Derailment Related to American Football is Best Thread Derailment.
Seriously, how come all threads related to American history have to turn completely OT as soon as anyone mentions this topic? I dread the day when SoaP turns into an endless discussion of a sport no one understands.
Seriously, how come all threads related to American history have to turn completely OT as soon as anyone mentions this topic? I dread the day when SoaP turns into an endless discussion of a sport no one understands.
I don't see any derailment. Every post that mentions American Football is also talking about the ATL.
And many people understand it.