The UK carries out Operation 'Hush'

Hard to judge whether it happened it would have turned out like, Anzio - successful landing but contained until much later, or Dieppe - unsuccessful landing - invaders withdrew.
It's more klikely that given the defences, it may have turned out more like Gallipoli !! However, (there should always be a 'however') with tanks landing to give close support to the invading troops, providing the German artillery was suppressed, then maybe it could succede! But what then, we are back to the Anzio situation - it would need more troops to be available to act as follow on infantry.
 
If the Turks managed to reinforce Gallipolli faster then the Turks, I think the chance is pretty big here the Germans are going to be able to get troops to the invasion area faster then the Allies can land them.

This has Dieppe written all over it.

Are the men on those barges even protected by anything?
 

Markus

Banned
If the Turks managed to reinforce Gallipolli faster then the Turks, I think the chance is pretty big here the Germans are going to be able to get troops to the invasion area faster then the Allies can land them.

Good point. The Germans are free to use roads and railroads since there is no enemy air power capable of effective interdiction. That points to a faster buildup on the defenders side.
 
Good point. The Germans are free to use roads and railroads since there is no enemy air power capable of effective interdiction. That points to a faster buildup on the defenders side.

I just saw that Stuart posted more or less what I meant on the HPCA-board.

Although that doesn't mean these barges aren't very usefull.
These pontoons look a bit like the lovechild of a Mulberry and a landing craft would.

On closer inspection I see it has some sort of barrier. What kind of hits can it withstand?

edit: What on earth possessed the Belgians to build that coast sea wall?
Isn't there some place they can find without such an obstacle?
 
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I just saw that Stuart posted more or less what I meant on the HPCA-board.

Although that doesn't mean these barges aren't very usefull.
These pontoons look a bit like the lovechild of a Mulberry and a landing craft would.

On closer inspection I see it has some sort of barrier. What kind of hits can it withstand?

edit: What on earth possessed the Belgians to build that coast sea wall?
Isn't there some place they can find without such an obstacle?

A link to said board

http://historypoliticsandcurrentaff...tish-landing--Belgium-coast-1917.html?page=-1
 

MrP

Banned
Well, there are good points and bad points, I'd say. On the one hand, the Brits do have lots of lovely supporting equipment, and have deployed four divisions, which'll make them more resistant to casualties than those poor chaps in the raid on Zeebrugge. On the other hand, those pontoons, while allowing for rapid egress, look completely undefended against side-on fire from enemy MGs or rifles. Nonetheless, provided the British are prepared to deploy sufficient capital ship/monitor firepower to support the attack, it has a good chance of seizing a beach-head, if the German guns aren't too numerous and accurate. The problem with that scenario, of course, is that in the Dardanelles Nelson's old maxim (No sailor but a fool fights a fortress) was demonstrated to frightful effect.

So deploying large numbers of big guns risks valuable warships. In addition, the Dardanelles also demonstrated the main advantage of land-based guns have over ship-mounted ones: they don't bob up and down with the waves. However, if the monitors beach themselves while landing the pontoons, they will become much more stable firing platforms, if concomitantly more vulnerable to enemy gunfire, since they've surrendered their (limited) mobility. But they are monitors - if Fisher isn't going to have a fiddle with some strip of hard sand in the Baltic, they're better used in Hush than not at all (unless you want to reuse their guns on later battleships ;) ).

The operation is heavily dependent on weather, of course, since winds in the wrong direction will mess up the smokescreen, and heavy seas will force the whole thing to be called off. Obviously, land operations in WWI were constrained by local climatic conditions, but this is WWII-esque. The training mentioned for the British divisions makes me feel more confident about the possibility of success, but the training done by the German defenders makes me doubt it.

In the end, like much of WWI, this is a risky manoeuvre with potential for devastating local success or catastrophic failure. One could see the defenders initially forced back, only for them to counter-attack the Brits, and push them back into the sea. Then again, the inevitable German counter-attack could go to pieces if the initial British assault does well enough. In short, I really don't know. It'd be jolly interesting to see, though.
 
Interesting concept. I think P has it said in the best way that it can be said - it would be a massive gamble, with the British either winning a famous victory and shortening the war significantly, or it could be a complete and total disaster, with the British forces being driven back... there just doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground there!

The thing that lept out at me right from the start when I was thinking about this is the parallel between this concept and the later German plans to invade Britain, namely Operation Sealion, at least in terms of the risks that would be involved and the problems that would be faced - the issue of supply being interupted by weather conditions, of invading a countryside held by the enemy and yet in the rear of the enemy area of operations, and yet a countryside that the enemy would know better than your own troops, and one in which your own troops would have the issues of supply and the confines of a beach head that would have to be won.

Of course, a hell of a lot of differences exist too, air power wasn't an issue at the time when it most assuredly was in the '40s, while the issue of actually getting the troops across was less of a challenge for the British in WWI than it would have been for the Nazis, but there could have still been some quite serious interdiction attempts - some use of the early air power that had been making its debut in WWI, some shore defense artillery and perhaps even the Kaiserlichemarine doing something to make up for the huge waste of manpower and material that it represented, destroyers and cruisers skirmishing and picking off transports, perhaps even another Jutland style conflict - after all, the Germans did have it in them, they were even preparing to use up that capability just to show that they had it when the war was well and truly coming to an end later on. (Which in turn led to mutinees etc., but that might not be the case if they'd made the effort more early on, when it wasn't obvious to anyone with half a brain that the war was already lost...)

At any rate, a lot of potential in this. I must say that I'm interested.
 
The point made in one of those articles is quite a good one IMO. Yes it was a gamble but it was only one division. By the standards of the day risking one division for a potential large strategic gain was a fair bet, multiple divisions were being chewed up for next to no gain elsewhere.

It reminds me a little of Vimy Ridge, e.g. the British have a well thought out plan with limited objectives and have trained and prepared very thoroughly. There would also be the advantage of at least tactical surprise. IMO that would get them ashore.

They lack however the overwheming artillary support that seems to be the main indicator of sucess in WW1 battles. There is also the obvious danger that the linkup attack fails and then the beachhead is left stranded. There's no mention of any plans to feed more troops into the beachhead as a contingeny for the linkup being delayed
 
i like the Idea of a WW1 D-day on Belgium coast

but there some problems, but first the Advantages

775px-Western_Front_1917.jpg

that the west Front line in 1917 as Red line
Its end on map top coastline at Nieuwpoort near Operation Hush landing point Middelkerke.

for Germans the landing would be a surprise
at first !
its depence how fast the British Troops can deploy on beach and move to Nieuwpoort.
and how the supply are secured against German attacks

so they successfully lands on Middelkerke and move to Nieuwpoort wat next ?
if landing is well Coordinated with Frontline force
the German Front line at Nieuwpoort is under heavy Attack.
unknow to them move British troop from behind to not protecet Side of Frontline
over run them and brake frontline

the question
how long takes it that news of British invasion get to German HQ?
and how long takes for Geman force to respond and conterattack
(wat weaken the west Frontline !)

will make the General the same mistake and start to build Trench warfare around Niewpoort
or they start a dynamic Warfare simelar to "Biltzkrieg" and move deep in Belgium
and cut off the German Frontline from supply lines ?

another problem is Middelkerke.
800px-Middelkerke_Casino_Epernayplein.jpg

that picture show the Beach of Middelkerke.
is made of fine sand: if wet heavy Tank stuck in it, dry is like desert sand and Trucks gestuk also.
the sea around Middelkerke is Shoal means full of sandbank, the landing pontoon can get shipwreck!

i know the site because, i go there for my holiday :D
 

Markus

Banned
for Germans the landing would be a surprise at first !

Not even that:

The Germans were well prepared for an invasion. The MarinesKorps Flandern had built 24 coastal batteries, including eight large calibre naval gun batteries capable of engaging ships up to 30 kilometres off the coast. A line of trenches and wire extended along the coast, supported by 33 concete machine gun nests spaced every 1,000 metres. Mobile infantry and artillery reserves were available from 4th Army. War games were held to simulate invasions and the Germans felt confident they could contain any attempt.
 
Rhino pontoons as used in Overlord?

You're right, I got the concrete things mixed up with the steel pontoons.
These pontoons aren't much wider then those Rhino's, are they?
They do appear to have some kind of boarding on the side.

Although I would still rather have dozens of small landing craft instead of a few such large pontoons. If one get's stuck on a sandbank 100 meters out of the beach, you'll have an entire division which will get either shot to pieces or drown.

As Thande already posted, what's your own opinion?


@ Michel Van;

AFAIK the entire Belgium seacoast is like that. My parents own a little house near Knokke (up North near Dutch border) and AFAIK it's sand banks and shallow water all the way. The texture of the sand will also be the same.
Nowadays these sand banks even move around from year to year.

or they start a dynamic Warfare simelar to "Biltzkrieg" and move deep in Belgium
and cut off the German Frontline from supply lines ?
Can the Allies maybe use that cavalry they've got?
 
However, if the monitors beach themselves while landing the pontoons, they will become much more stable firing platforms, if concomitantly more vulnerable to enemy gunfire, since they've surrendered their (limited) mobility. But they are monitors - if Fisher isn't going to have a fiddle with some strip of hard sand in the Baltic, they're better used in Hush than not at all (unless you want to reuse their guns on later battleships ;) ).

Question: wouldn´t the recoil of the guns work directly on the keel of a beached ship, shattering it?
 

MrP

Banned
Question: wouldn´t the recoil of the guns work directly on the keel of a beached ship, shattering it?

We'll need someone more knowledgeable about big guns than I to answer that. I just had in mind some mostly-forgotten rendering of Operation Sealion wherein HMS Revenge (or a sister) beached herself to provide a secure firing platform against the Rhine barges. Since the monitors don't have the strength of battleships, I dunno.
 
Question: wouldn´t the recoil of the guns work directly on the keel of a beached ship, shattering it?

Only if they are firing vertically upwards. I would have thought the RN could have provided overwhelming fire support for Hush landings and the subsequent fighting.
 
We'll need someone more knowledgeable about big guns than I to answer that. I just had in mind some mostly-forgotten rendering of Operation Sealion wherein HMS Revenge (or a sister) beached herself to provide a secure firing platform against the Rhine barges. Since the monitors don't have the strength of battleships, I dunno.

Could it be we´ve overlooked a critical point: the tides- doesn´t seem to be a good idea to beach a ship on a sandbank if it´s really high and dry in the end.

(apart from the capsizing, I have the vision of german cavalry capturing beached warships like the French in 1795 :cool::cool:)
Yes, impropable, but the idea...
 
Beaching ships to improve fire control is a bad idea. Unless the weather is very bad, in which case there will be no landings, the motion of the ship at low speed especially against a land target, is irrelevant. After all, even WWI gunnery was able to hit ships moving at 15-25 kts and dodging while the firing ship was doing the same thing.

Resupply across the open beach is going to be a problem, especially if more than one division is used.

IMHO even the the landing succeeds I don't see it being a war ender. The Germans will be able to bring in reinforcements to "refuse the flank" faster that the Brits can attempt to get around them. Forget tanks, the 1917 models that make it across the sand are not fast enough or mechanically reliable enough to turn the flank a la Guederian. If things don't go just right the landing forces and some of the ships get slaughtered, if it works nice win but no big effect. Not doing it was smart.
 
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