The Twins v The Twins on 9th April 1940

I may have asked this before, but here goes...

Would having 2 ships have altered Whitworth's tactics? E.g. would he have attempted to get closer to the Twins before opening fire? The objective being that when his ships did open fire he would have scored more hits before the enemy started firing back due to the shorter range? As it works both ways the enemy gunnery would be more accurate when they did fire back, but I'm hoping that the British would have done more damage than OTL before the German ships could return fire ITTL.
 
Bump
The next bit is an academic question because she was refitting when the battle took place and according to her Wikipaedia entry her maximum speed was limited to 26.5 knots before her refit. Having written that, how well would Hood have done? My uneducated thinking is that with her larger and AFAIK more seaworthy hull she would have been able to go faster than Repulse and Renown in the foul weather conditions and maintain contact with the Twins. However, she might attempt to shadow the German ships rather than engage them.
 
Hood's reduced speed was due to her chasing Strasbourg and stripping a turbine while doing 28 knots.
Considering it's a month or two earlier, Hood would be able to make 28. She might strip a turbine chasing them. Either way, Hood might engage at long range, The Twins turn and run, and Hood will eventually fall behind. Hood's armour is pretty good against S&G's shells, compared to R&R, and while Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have good armour against Hood's shells all Hood needs is one or two hits to the superstructure, and one, if not both ships could have their fighting effectiveness greatly reduced. The question is, is Hood's older Dreyer system up to the task? While Hood's first salvo against PE barely missed, the weather situation is far worse.
So overall Hood engages from long range, may or may not hit Scharnhorst or Gneisenau. They run, Hood can't keep up.
 
A fight in the Channel is more interesting, because that's likely to devolve into the kind of fight that better favors the Twins. And that's still not terribly favorable to the German ships. If they want to punch holes in Strasbourg's belt, they need to get close enough that the French can do it right back, and the French still have better fire control.

The MN suffered an issue with shell dispersion on their quad mounts that were not really fixed until post war. Because all four guns fired at the same time the blast as the shells left the barrel had a nasty habit of disrupting the flight of other shells. They fixed this by fitting an interruptor so the guns fired a fraction of a second after one another when all four guns fired and this was installed on the Richelieu in the US after her refit there in 44 as it was a standard thing on USN battleships.

A punch up between the Dunkirques and the Twins would be a nasty fight, the Twins were built to counter the French ships, and have arguably superior protection but have weaker guns vs the heavier guns of the French ships. The Germans have the speed advantage but the French ships can bring their guns to bare on a far wider arc whist the Twins have to fight broadside on to bring all 9 guns to bare.

Really it depends on who spots who first, the Germans have the speed to slowly outpace the French ships, so unless the Germans actually WANT a fight, then they will probably choose to disengage as the KM generally operated under the rules of "Don't get in a fucking fight!" IIRC the Germans didn't attempt to disengage at Denmark Straight because they thought they had two British cruisers closing in on them, apparently the layout of the PoW made them misidentify her as a Town class ship.

So assuming they spot one another at long range then the Germans would probably disengage. The French ships would probably have escorts with them, making a confrontation even less desirable for the Germans as they'd also not want to tangle with a pair of CLs and possibly up to 8 large destroyers as well.

I suppose you could do that as a WI, WI the Force du Raid joined the Free French following the French armstice (basically negating Catapult).

Refit and Repair vs the Twins is also a case of guns vs armour. If its like the OTL engagement were Renown chased the twins, then in that weather and visibility really a few more hits get landed and the Germans get away. But if it wasn't so rough then it could go either way, i'm not sure on what ranges the 11-inch shells punch through the Renown and Repulse's 9-inch belts, they are probably able to hurt each other at the same ranges. But 15-inch shells do far more damage than an 11-inch one, its just more bang for your buck. But the RN's BC's are not tough ships.
 
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I suppose you could do that as a WI, WI the Force du Raid joined the Free French following the French armstice (basically negating Catapult).

Or just have the Force de Raid engage the Twins when they were out and about in November 1939.
 
I suppose you could do that as a WI, WI the Force du Raid joined the Free French following the French armstice (basically negating Catapult).

Or just have the Force de Raid engage the Twins when they were out and about in November 1939.

In this case then the Germans do a runner. They are not going to fight a superior force or risk being damaged and then getting chewed out by Hitler. If its the Force De Raide then at the outbreak of the War you've got two CL's and 8 contre-torpilluers (super-destroyers) including the Mogodor which was a very light cruiser more than a destroyer and these ships can definately overhaul the twins. The Marine Nationale studied and worshipped at the altar of the Torpedo attack and the French ships could well go for a torp attack. Its then up to Darlan to decide on what to do.

1 - Order the persuit and accept that he could loose a ship or two as they try to get in range and a suitable angle for a torpedo attack.
2 - Let the Germans disengage as he keeps his formation together.

If they come across each other at shorter ranges then I don't doubt he'd order a full torpedo attack. But in clear weather at very long range, its a chase and the DD's and CLs are going to probably be out of range of his capital ships ability to engage by the time they get into position to launch a torpedo attack of their own.
 
In this case then the Germans do a runner. They are not going to fight a superior force or risk being damaged and then getting chewed out by Hitler. If its the Force De Raide then at the outbreak of the War you've got two CL's and 8 contre-torpilluers (super-destroyers) including the Mogodor which was a very light cruiser more than a destroyer and these ships can definately overhaul the twins. The Marine Nationale studied and worshipped at the altar of the Torpedo attack and the French ships could well go for a torp attack. Its then up to Darlan to decide on what to do.

1 - Order the persuit and accept that he could loose a ship or two as they try to get in range and a suitable angle for a torpedo attack.
2 - Let the Germans disengage as he keeps his formation together.

If they come across each other at shorter ranges then I don't doubt he'd order a full torpedo attack. But in clear weather at very long range, its a chase and the DD's and CLs are going to probably be out of range of his capital ships ability to engage by the time they get into position to launch a torpedo attack of their own.

Have the PL.7 torpedo bombers from the mighty Bearn successfully lame one of the Twins, allowing the French Twins to run her down.
 
Have the PL.7 torpedo bombers from the mighty Bearn successfully lame one of the Twins, allowing the French Twins to run her down.

Then it becomes an execution as one of the Twins would still basically run and the other gets ripped apart. Realistically the only time the Germans had the actual forces to challenge the Force de Raid was during the Norwegian Campaign and that would only be if both sides met as actual battlegroups sailing together. Also the Bearn had a VERY slow cycle time for her aircraft due to very slow lifts (which were also a major part of her flight deck).
 
Hood's reduced speed was due to her chasing Strasbourg and stripping a turbine while doing 28 knots.
Considering it's a month or two earlier, Hood would be able to make 28. She might strip a turbine chasing them. Either way, Hood might engage at long range, The Twins turn and run, and Hood will eventually fall behind. Hood's armour is pretty good against S&G's shells, compared to R&R, and while Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have good armour against Hood's shells all Hood needs is one or two hits to the superstructure, and one, if not both ships could have their fighting effectiveness greatly reduced. The question is, is Hood's older Dreyer system up to the task? While Hood's first salvo against PE barely missed, the weather situation is far worse.

So overall Hood engages from long range, may or may not hit Scharnhorst or Gneisenau. They run, Hood can't keep up.
I was asking about Hood taking part in the OTL battle on 9th April in the same weather conditions as OTL.

I thought that a possible POD could have been that the Admiralty believes the reports that the Germans are preparing an invasion of Norway and decide to abandon/delay Hood's refit depending upon when they become convinced that the Germans are going to invade.

However, I now think that it wouldn't be possible because IOTL she was in the Clyde 15th March to 30th March 1940. Then she was at Devonport 31st March - 27th May 1940. And finally she was at Liverpool 28th May to 12th June 1940. Source Naval History Net.

My understanding is that British ships tended to be more seaworthy than Germany's and therefore were faster in realistic sea conditions. That's why I thought Hood might be as fast or even faster than the Twins in the weather conditions that the OTL battle was fought in. I also thought that because of her size she might have more freeboard than Renown which might have helped Hood maintain contact with the Twins. However, that was before I remembered that Hood was very wet, which gained her the nickname, "The largest submarine in the Navy." So I now think it's unlikely that she could have gone any faster than Renown in the prevailing sea conditions.
 
Then it becomes an execution as one of the Twins would still basically run and the other gets ripped apart. Realistically the only time the Germans had the actual forces to challenge the Force de Raid was during the Norwegian Campaign and that would only be if both sides met as actual battlegroups sailing together. Also the Bearn had a VERY slow cycle time for her aircraft due to very slow lifts (which were also a major part of her flight deck).

Oh I am aware of Bearn's many limitations but we are not talking about a large carrier v carrier engagement, we're talking about getting eight or ten planes in the air for a strike against two surface ships without air cover. I would love to have seen that poor ship get in at least successful combat mission during the war. I figure the two most realistic times are during the hunt for Graf Spee or when the Twins were out in November 1939.
 

hipper

Banned
I was asking about Hood taking part in the OTL battle on 9th April in the same weather conditions as OTL.

I thought that a possible POD could have been that the Admiralty believes the reports that the Germans are preparing an invasion of Norway and decide to abandon/delay Hood's refit depending upon when they become convinced that the Germans are going to invade.

However, I now think that it wouldn't be possible because IOTL she was in the Clyde 15th March to 30th March 1940. Then she was at Devonport 31st March - 27th May 1940. And finally she was at Liverpool 28th May to 12th June 1940. Source Naval History Net.

My understanding is that British ships tended to be more seaworthy than Germany's and therefore were faster in realistic sea conditions. That's why I thought Hood might be as fast or even faster than the Twins in the weather conditions that the OTL battle was fought in. I also thought that because of her size she might have more freeboard than Renown which might have helped Hood maintain contact with the Twins. However, that was before I remembered that Hood was very wet, which gained her the nickname, "The largest submarine in the Navy." So I now think it's unlikely that she could have gone any faster than Renown in the prevailing sea conditions.


I suspect that S&G with their clipper bows would be faster than Renown given the weather however in the Engagement vs Renown they had the advantage that they only had to keep their rear turrets in action while Renown had to reduce speed to keep her forward guns in action.
 
I suspect that S&G with their clipper bows would be faster than Renown given the weather however in the Engagement vs Renown they had the advantage that they only had to keep their rear turrets in action while Renown had to reduce speed to keep her forward guns in action.
Regrettably I have to agree as that corresponds to what I've read about the OTL action. To go faster Renown had to turn her turrets away from the enemy to go faster.
 

hipper

Banned
Regrettably I have to agree as that corresponds to what I've read about the OTL action. To go faster Renown had to turn her turrets away from the enemy to go faster.

It’s not regrettable the Germans were amazed she could Steam as fast as she did and still shoot Imelieve their forward turrets were out of action due to weather damage
 
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The twins were not partically good sea boats, and this might well be before they had their atlantic bow fitted.
 
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