The Twins v The Twins on 9th April 1940

Driftless

Donor
The Duke of York's early hits on the Scharnhorst in 1943 were strongly guided by her gunnery radar. With the terrible visibility the DoY got within 12,000yds without the Scharnhorst being aware (their gunnery radar had already been knocked out by British cruisers).

in early 1940, you'd almost need an accidental meeting encounter where the two sides got within spitting distance before they open fire to have fight-to-the-finish scenario. How good was the gunnery radar on the R's at that point?
 
The Duke of York's early hits on the Scharnhorst in 1943 were strongly guided by her gunnery radar. With the terrible visibility the DoY got within 12,000yds without the Scharnhorst being aware (their gunnery radar had already been knocked out by British cruisers).

in early 1940, you'd almost need an accidental meeting encounter where the two sides got within spitting distance before they open fire to have fight-to-the-finish scenario. How good was the gunnery radar on the R's at that point?
They probably didn't have any gunnery radar whatsoever.

IIRC only 2 ships in the RN were fitted with radar sets in September 1939 and they were Type 79 air warning sets which IIRC were based on the Air Ministry's Chain Home or Chain Home Low Sets. More Type 79 sets would have been fitted over the next 6 months, but IIRC the 50mm gunnery sets didn't come into service until 1941.

However, that's an interesting what if because...

The R&D section of the Signal School at Portsmouth had the idea for a 50mm gunnery radar back in 1931, but work didn't begin until the period 1935-37. I don't remember the exact year. Furthermore there is the story about HM King George V attending a lecture on asdic in 1931 and asked the lecturer if it could be done underwater with sound waves, could the same be done above water with radio waves. I don't have my notes with me, but I think the lecturer replied that it could be done, but the technology needed to do it was many years away.

The Admiralty starting is radar programme in 1931 or 1932 is a favourite what if of mine. In addition to HM Ships being fitted with better radar 1939-41 I think it would probably lead to the Army adopting the Admiralty's 50mm gunnery radar as it's GL set in place of the OTL GL Mk I and Mk II. Furthermore I think the RAF would have had night fighters equipped with an AI set derived from the Admiralty's 50mm radar in the summer of 1940. More accurate AA guns and an effective night fighter would make a lot of difference in the Blitz.
 

hipper

Banned
Most naval clashes were determined by command decision. In the first few years of the war- the KM appears to have 'bested' the WALLIES more often than not, although they had their noticeable failures. In battle results analysed by O]Hara - the KM warships inflicted twice as much damage as they received.

that's if you define 'bested' as successfully getting away :)
 

FBKampfer

Banned
As noted previously, you'd have to bring it in close to get a fight-until-sunk scenario.

However this is exactly the type of fight that favors the Twins, as their high velocity 11" guns were the equal of nearly anything else in the world at close range, and could still combat most capital ships out to 15,000yds or so, while they themselves were quite more heavily armored than R&R.


So at extended range, you need Hood-level bad luck to sink. And up close, the Twins could probably dismantle R&R.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
that's if you define 'bested' as successfully getting away :)
I think he means more on the tactical level.

Any discussion on strategic defeat of the RN grows boring rather quickly, given that they were playing a game they would have to actively try to lose in order to do so.
 
that's if you define 'bested' as successfully getting away :)

Hit and run tactics were a requirement considering the KM was out numbered about 10:1 in warships -not counting U-Boats. In truth KM should never have wasted resources/funding on some micro battle fleet. Dozens of surface raiders would have been a much better option.
 
Hit and run tactics were a requirement considering the KM was out numbered about 10:1 in warships -not counting U-Boats. In truth KM should never have wasted resources/funding on some micro battle fleet. Dozens of surface raiders would have been a much better option.
That assumes they were planning to fight the Royal Navy. Everything I've read states that until about 1938 the Kriegsmarine was intended to fight the French, a much more achievable goal.
 

Driftless

Donor
That assumes they were planning to fight the Royal Navy. Everything I've read states that until about 1938 the Kriegsmarine was intended to fight the French, a much more achievable goal.

Richelieu vs Bismark, or Dunkerque vs Scharnhorst - or Graf Spee? Nice timeline opportunities....
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Dunkerque was the answer to Graf Spee. Richelieu was the answer to Littorio. Germany wanted a navy. They had no real focus on its purpose.
 
That assumes they were planning to fight the Royal Navy. Everything I've read states that until about 1938 the Kriegsmarine was intended to fight the French, a much more achievable goal.

No the strategy was always to support the U-Boat war to cut the transatlantic life line to America. Trouble started when Hitler hijacked the strategic plan for his screwball plans for rearmament[FOUR YEAR PLAN]. This feature cutting back KM & LW to build up a enlarged wagon mobilised HEER and the WESTWALL plus a tiny PANZERWAFFE. Initially Hitler just wanted the navy to be capable of coastal defence and dominate the Baltic /North Sea. Raeder in a desperate attempt to save the KM convinced Hitler, the modest naval plan 1932 could be tweaked into a strong battle group to help defeat the French/Poles and later used against the RN.
 
TIRPITZ was also the a very effective fleet in being.

In fact, as somebody pointed out on another thread - consider if they hadn't sent BISMARCK out and kept the Twins in home waters after they got repaired after Norway. Then if they just keep both sets of Twins in Norwegian waters (along with a couple of heavy cruisers and pocket battleships), the RN is forced to keep a massive fleet at Scapa Flow.
 

hipper

Banned
Hit and run tactics were a requirement considering the KM was out numbered about 10:1 in warships -not counting U-Boats. In truth KM should never have wasted resources/funding on some micro battle fleet. Dozens of surface raiders would have been a much better option.

Well that was the point of the AGNT to prevent a jejune ecole fleet from happening. If Hitler had developed a fleet of pocket battleships that would have been seen as a direct challenge to the RN. To which the response might have been British Divisons in the Ruhr rather than Naval rearmament.
 
Well that was the point of the AGNT to prevent a jejune ecole fleet from happening. If Hitler had developed a fleet of pocket battleships that would have been seen as a direct challenge to the RN. To which the response might have been British Divisons in the Ruhr rather than Naval rearmament.


EEEHHH actually the fleet of 6 more surface raiders was already ordered before Hitler got in power at which time the number being planned for was 12 more surface raiders.

Hitler only cared about AGNT as long as it served his needs.
 
The contest I want to see is Scharnhorst/Gneisenau versus Strasbourg/Dunqerque either in the Channel or 400 kms off Brest.
The fight off Brest is not one the Twins want to fight to a decision; the French ships have all the advantages at long range, namely superior fire control, guns with excellent deck penetration characteristics, and a much thicker and higher main armored deck. Dunkerque is likely to be limping home at best, though.

A fight in the Channel is more interesting, because that's likely to devolve into the kind of fight that better favors the Twins. And that's still not terribly favorable to the German ships. If they want to punch holes in Strasbourg's belt, they need to get close enough that the French can do it right back, and the French still have better fire control.

Wait, hang on, the French belts were sloped. Lemme run the numbers...

Okay, adding on the effects of the sloping, that knocks the range to penetrate Strasbourg's belt down to 18,000 yards and Dunkerque's down to 23,000 yards. It was 22,000 and 27,000 before, BTW. Penetration of the German belt starts at 24,000 yards.

Ouch.

Even bugging out is going to be less effective; Dunkerque and Strasbourg are faster than Renown and Repulse, albeit only by a hair, and their guns are perfectly set up for a chase.
 

hipper

Banned
EEEHHH actually the fleet of 6 more surface raiders was already ordered before Hitler got in power at which time the number being planned for was 12 more surface raiders.

Hitler only cared about AGNT as long as it served his needs.

Hmm the Pocket Battleships were ordered pre Hitler under the Versailles treaty restrictions. Which is three ships
The only other effective surface raiders the Germans made were the capital ships B&T, G&S. all the german cruisers were ineffective as surface Raiders due to lousy power plants or general Unseaworthiness. So I’m not sure what you are talking about.
 
Hmm the Pocket Battleships were ordered pre Hitler under the Versailles treaty restrictions. Which is three ships
The only other effective surface raiders the Germans made were the capital ships B&T, G&S. all the german cruisers were ineffective as surface Raiders due to lousy power plants or general Unseaworthiness. So I’m not sure what you are talking about.


No Panzerschiffe D,E,F,G,H & J were ordered in 1932 as 18-20 KT stretched PBS with 3 triple 11" turrets. The Deutschland class & K/L Kreuzers were ordered in mid 1920s and were mostly completed when Hitler took power. In addition an Aircraft carrier plus another 1/2 dozen light Kreuzers were also ordered [M class?] & several dozen GTB . These were depression era plans and when the economy recovered , all these plans were updated with the Panzerschiffe expanding to either 8 x 25,000 ton raider's or 6 x 29,000 ton Panzerschiffe.
 

hipper

Banned
Q,
No Panzerschiffe D,E,F,G,H & J were ordered in 1932 as 18-20 KT stretched PBS with 3 triple 11" turrets. The Deutschland class & K/L Kreuzers were ordered in mid 1920s and were mostly completed when Hitler took power. In addition an Aircraft carrier plus another 1/2 dozen light Kreuzers were also ordered [M class?] & several dozen GTB . These were depression era plans and when the economy recovered , all these plans were updated with the Panzerschiffe expanding to either 8 x 25,000 ton raider's or 6 x 29,000 ton Panzerschiffe.

I think you need. To distinguish between what was planned an what was actually completed.
 
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