The Twin Vipers: A TL of the Berlin-Moscow Axis
- Thread starter BiteNibbleChomp
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I can't believe I have to point this out but this similar comparison has been made before in this thread but with Holocaust deniers. As a communist who vehemently opposes Stalinism, I have to inform you one is a socio-economic theory and the other is an ideology of an autocrat who claimed to have the means to implement said socio-economic theory. It is extremely offensive for you to compare a philosophical debate over how a socio-economic system is implemented. To actively denying the historical evidence of the systematic mass murder of people. You realize Albert Einstein was a socialist who actively denied that Stalin was a true socialist. There is a profound difference here. Please stop making this comparison.
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Unfortunately, much of the far left ttl will probably take at best an isolationist position and at worst an pro USSR stance.
A lot of the western left thought the poles deserved Warsaw as they weren’t communist or soviet aligned and siding with the western allies made them “imperialist puppets,” it was a fairly common position sadly.
As a result much of the far left will be interned as the far right was otl. The far right will have it easier as Mussolini is an ally ttl and they can appeal to that fascism.
The anti authoritarian left such as anarchists will simply get grouped in as they often partook in joint action with other leftists despite sectarianism and roll probably be pacifist.
It should wear down post war although I am sure “communist” will be a rather strong social taboo, without really the fear of a mighty USSR I can’t see a neoliberal rise ttl and the welfare state would remain intact.
Interestingly the anarcho communist flag ttl will make people think of the Ukrainian fascist blood and soil flag adopted by the Stephan Bandera regime in Kiev
A lot of the western left thought the poles deserved Warsaw as they weren’t communist or soviet aligned and siding with the western allies made them “imperialist puppets,” it was a fairly common position sadly.
As a result much of the far left will be interned as the far right was otl. The far right will have it easier as Mussolini is an ally ttl and they can appeal to that fascism.
The anti authoritarian left such as anarchists will simply get grouped in as they often partook in joint action with other leftists despite sectarianism and roll probably be pacifist.
It should wear down post war although I am sure “communist” will be a rather strong social taboo, without really the fear of a mighty USSR I can’t see a neoliberal rise ttl and the welfare state would remain intact.
Interestingly the anarcho communist flag ttl will make people think of the Ukrainian fascist blood and soil flag adopted by the Stephan Bandera regime in Kiev
I do like Ukraine insurgent army uniforms, themselves influenced by Austro Hungarian ones. TTL they will be adopted standard issue given the Bandera regime, but soon camo will also be introduced as Italy already started that in otl by wwii and largely continued the same evolution into the Cold War.
The party militia will probably use old soviet weapons for some time, while the army gets new Italian arms and armor.
The party militia will probably use old soviet weapons for some time, while the army gets new Italian arms and armor.
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I agree that comparing it to fascism is too far and lean left my self, but at the same time I have seen western armchair leftists tell people living in the iron curtain “it just wasn’t real communism.” That has merit of course, but it is a slap in the face to victims of Stalinism.
It is important to know even “libertarian” examples of communism weren’t any haven, the free territory was essentially a stratocracy and filled with anti semitism.
Granted I am a anarcho syndicalist not a anarcho communist, but Stalinism in my view enters third positionism.
The USSR, especially under Stalin was horrible enough I would probably hate any mention “communism” from westerners had I lived there.
Mussolini opposed any suggestions of restoring the Hapsburgs after Hungary surrendered, and as Italian troops played the largest part in forcing that surrender, he obviously had the final say there. The Hapsburgs were allowed to return to the country (which became a republic under Zoltan Tildy) and didn't really do anything notable.
That sounds about right.
China was pretty grumpy with the Americans for backing Japan's claims to Manchuria and again when Truman looked to take Japan's side during the Third Sino-Japanese War of 1949-51. Once a few decades had passed, the relationship improved somewhat, but it is still not great.
America and Japan are friendly but not particularly close - America's priorities are the Western Hemisphere and then Europe, while Japan concentrates on Asia and maintains a close alliance with the UK.
- BNC
I figure by later war, like otl in the later part of the pacific, at least certain American units have been outfitted with camo.
Although since a lot would be in Russia, it would probably be heavier than the pacific uniforms, and the reversible patterns would be more centered on woodland and snow pattern.
So like a more American version of this German uniform in use the Eastern front otl.
How did American soldiers react to gulags?
Did they get into any rages where they would machine gun the guards?
How is Poland by modern day, given its extensive status as a victim of both regimes and its contribution to the Eastern front, wouldn’t it get a lot of investment?
What’s the current status of Belarusian nationalism given they are state less currently ttl?
Given the likely taboo around communism, did Vietnam unite when independent a capitalist democracy?
Although since a lot would be in Russia, it would probably be heavier than the pacific uniforms, and the reversible patterns would be more centered on woodland and snow pattern.
So like a more American version of this German uniform in use the Eastern front otl.
How did American soldiers react to gulags?
Did they get into any rages where they would machine gun the guards?
How is Poland by modern day, given its extensive status as a victim of both regimes and its contribution to the Eastern front, wouldn’t it get a lot of investment?
What’s the current status of Belarusian nationalism given they are state less currently ttl?
Given the likely taboo around communism, did Vietnam unite when independent a capitalist democracy?
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I like the idea
By the time they're seeing gulags, they've already encountered the German death camps and received word from the Japanese that the Soviets were running similar camps themselves. So they wouldn't exactly be shocked by them any more (moreso a case of "get the folks in there some food and stuff and leave it to the men in the rear to solve").
Undoubtedly there would be a few incidents where the Allied troops acted in a less than proper manner, such things happen in war unfortunately.
Extensive Marshall Plan aid and mineral wealth from Silesia, plus a lack of 40 years of communist mismanagement, means Poland is roughly at the same level as western Europe by modern day.
Heavily suppressed on both the Russian and Polish sides of the border. Despite the Whites being fierce Russian nationalists, conditions are probably better in Russia, with the Orthodox church being heavily promoted (and the shared faith between Belorussians and Russians often being used as an argument for unity). Poland's attitude is simply "they're Poles now".
Vietnam gained independence as an absolute monarchy under Bao Dai (France couldn't afford to fight in SE Asia, and Japan backed the groups within Vietnam that would result in a country more aligned to their interests). The Chinese meanwhile sent support to the VNQDD (which fought against the Empire until around 1950, when Japan gained the upper hand in their war against China).
- BNC
I finished reading the finished TL thread recently, a good timeline based on a seemingly out-there concept. Nice to see Stalin pay for his crimes here.
Just a few questions:
1. What happened to the Jewish community in the Soviet Union, alongside other groups that were being targeted in Germany and its occupied territories during the Holocaust? I might've missed/forgotten something, but did the Soviet Union just let the Jews, Roma, etc. be, or did things go similar to what happened in The Twilight of the Red Tsar over there at some point?
2. What happened to the Civil Rights Movement ITTL? Was it relatively the same, or did this alternate WW2 have significant impacts upon it?
3. I'm guessing OTL people stop being born beyond the 1950s or 60s due to the butterflies?
4. Like most WW2 threads have probably been asked before, did Anne Frank survive?
Thanks if you can answer these.
Just a few questions:
1. What happened to the Jewish community in the Soviet Union, alongside other groups that were being targeted in Germany and its occupied territories during the Holocaust? I might've missed/forgotten something, but did the Soviet Union just let the Jews, Roma, etc. be, or did things go similar to what happened in The Twilight of the Red Tsar over there at some point?
2. What happened to the Civil Rights Movement ITTL? Was it relatively the same, or did this alternate WW2 have significant impacts upon it?
3. I'm guessing OTL people stop being born beyond the 1950s or 60s due to the butterflies?
4. Like most WW2 threads have probably been asked before, did Anne Frank survive?
Thanks if you can answer these.
Thanks for reading!
1/ Stalin never really had a consistent policy regarding the Jews and other groups, but Hitler was a terrible influence on him, and from about 1943 some groups of Jews, minorities and "counter-revolutionaries" were being rounded up and killed. It was however more a sequence of paranoid episodes on Stalin's part than a defined program of mass extermination, but the results were dreadful all the same...
2/ The war itself didn't change things too much, but the much clearer measure of victory allowed Truman to start pushing for equal rights laws as early as 1946, most of which were passed. By the time Truman left office in 1953 there was still a fair bit to do, and neither Patton nor the Republicans were particularly interested in finishing the job, leaving it to the next Democrat, who took power in 1965, to ensure equal rights became real in every sense of the words. At least by that time, a lot of the resistance to the movement had passed.
3/ Realistically the cut-off would be 1940 (or 1941 in America), but I like to leave this to readers to decide. The only confirmed post-war birth is George W Bush, who ITTL became an editor for the Saturday Evening Post.
4/ I'm glad to say that she did survive
She eventually became a journalist for a moderately successful Amsterdam newspaper.- BNC
You’re Welcome!Thanks for reading!
Considering the Doctors Plot IOTL, along with the Progroms a few decades earlier, I wouldn’t be surprised if Soviet Russia became more and more influenced by antisemitism and other bigotries as the war went on.1/ Stalin never really had a consistent policy regarding the Jews and other groups, but Hitler was a terrible influence on him, and from about 1943 some groups of Jews, minorities and "counter-revolutionaries" were being rounded up and killed. It was however more a sequence of paranoid episodes on Stalin's part than a defined program of mass extermination, but the results were dreadful all the same...
Good to know.
I would imagine that, while World War 2 was definitely one of those events in history that would’ve seen big changes to world history if even minor things went differently, I would imagine in this scenario, starting with the poor Soviets and Japanese who died in the Border Skirmishes, it would be a more gradual butterfly, becoming more and more noticeable by the end of the war, such as there being no Pearl Harbour and a weaker Blitz. I would think the cut off point would be somewhere between 1947-1957. Considering the lack of a Cold War and all of that it brought with it.
As for famous births, well, I’m not sure about that. I would imagine places like America, Canada, and Australia would be fine, while Britain, France, and Germany would have some of its more famous folk butterflied early on.
Nice!4/ I'm glad to say that she did survive
This would make for another interesting timeline. Imagine the fighting that would take place from a German-Soviet-Japanese Axis War.
EDIT: Here is what the opening post of that timeline would probably look like;
BiteNibbleChomp said:
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FS but with the Soviets sending Yamamoto tons of oil? That's terrifying!
I did consider adding Japan to the Axis when I first thought of this TL, but I doubt such an alliance could have held itself together for too long before one of the powers backstabbed the others. And Allied Imperial Japan was too interesting an idea to not look into.
The "Triple Vipers" would be interesting to read though
- BNC
I would read the hell out of that TL.The "Triple Vipers" would be interesting to read though
- BNC
I read that in OTL Alfred Rosenberg tried to form an alliance between Germany, the USSR and Japan believing they would be unbeatable but neither Hitler nor Japan felt the same.
Reading Yamamoto and the Americans fighting the Nazis near Scotland was an experience.And Allied Imperial Japan was too interesting an idea to not look into.
The "Triple Vipers" would be interesting to read though
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The main question I think a Berlin-Moscow-Tokyo Axis TL would have to deal with is what the PoD would be, which would set into motion the alliance in the first place.
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