The Twin Vipers: A TL of the Berlin-Moscow Axis

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by BiteNibbleChomp, Dec 7, 2018.

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  1. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    What are the Alaskas like ITTL? Are they still the floating abominations @CalBear so heavily detests?
     
  2. BiteNibbleChomp I like watching Survivor.

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    Exactly like Calbear's favourite ship of all time, of course. I mostly put that one in as a joke :p

    - BNC
     
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  3. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Right now, what is the likelihood of the coup being successful and seizing power? If it fails, would it be through Hitler loyalists rally around Goering?
     
  4. BiteNibbleChomp I like watching Survivor.

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    Paris -> Frankfurt 574km
    Frankfurt -> Moscow 2330km

    Does your dream account for the fact that the centre of Moscow is now a glassy crater? Because by the time Patton gets there (say, 1948), that's what he's going to be seeing.

    I don't want to say too much about the post-Hitler Germany just yet (it's the main focus of the next update), but let's just say that there's a lot of people that think they would be an excellent second Fuhrer. Oh, and Stalin has something to say about it as well. Goring doesn't have that great a claim to the title - Hess was still around as deputy Fuhrer ITTL, so Goring can only claim to be Luftwaffe boss, not Hitler's chosen successor (of course, Hess also got blown up).

    - BNC
     
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  5. StrikeEcho Procrastinating

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    With, the more or less complete destruction of the KM, would the Allies go for a naval invasion of Germany?
     
  6. StealthyMarat Вы никогда не сможете прочитать эту строчку ^_^

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    How about T34,T29,T32,T30? British Caernarvon? Centurion mk 1? M26E1(M26 with accelerated engine and long 90mm with penetration of M82 shell comparable to PzGr. 43 on long 88(KWK44/71)
    T34 had AP shell which was ablw to penetrate 290mm at P.B.
    T30 just had 155mm cannon.
    Yes, I know, thats 1945-1946, but can allies somehow speed up development?
     
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  7. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Well, he's the highest ranking NSDAP leader still alive, so there's that.
     
  8. BiteNibbleChomp I like watching Survivor.

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    Not sure what the value in that is. They have a pretty firm grip on the Rhineland in 2/44, and if the Red Army doesn't do anything, they are in a good position to conquer the rest of the country over land. If the Red Army does do something, any bridgehead, say north of Berlin, is going to be stomped on very quickly.

    To reliably defend against a Wolf, the Allied tank needs to have a minimum of 6" frontal armour (the 128 could smash 7" at 2000m, but as combat conditions mean shots won't be perfect, I'll knock it down a bit). OTL Allied designs that had this in 1944-46 were the Tortoise, Black Prince, possibly the T29 and the T30, as well as anything heavier (I haven't looked up every single tank that existed in 1946, that would take too long). The Centurion doesn't have a great chance against it either, but we can throw that in the list. M26 is far too weak to survive a hit.

    To actually kill a Wolf head-on, the AT gun being used has to penetrate ~5" of armour at 30 degree slope (using an armour scheme comparable to an IS-2 or 3). At 1000m, the 105mm gun on the T29 could (barely) do this. The 32lber (94mm) that would go on the Tortoise was also able to penetrate it (Wikipedia says the Tiger II and Jagdtiger would be "easy targets", both of those are slightly heavier than the Wolf), and I imagine the 155 on the T30 would also be able to get a kill within 1000m. The 17lber on the Comet, Black Prince and other British makes could barely do this against unsloped armour, and is probably fine for a side shot, but likely can't kill the Wolf head-on.

    Re: timing, the Allies have been fighting the KV-1 and T-34 since early 1941 in Iran, and have been fully expecting to fight some form of Soviet heavy later in the war (unlike OTL, where the PzIV was the best the Germans used until late '42). I pushed the M26's introduction forward to about 10/43, which is an acceleration of ~15 mo. So anything drawn up by OTL 1946 or so can be plausibly used in the war ITTL.

    - BNC
     
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  9. StealthyMarat Вы никогда не сможете прочитать эту строчку ^_^

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    You forgot about T34.) if we are to belive documents about T14E3, then:
    [​IMG]
    As we can see, if you are talking about 115mm angled at 60 degree angle, then...
     
  10. ric350 Well-Known Member

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    By this time I would imagine that the Germans had given designs for the Panzerfaust to the Soviets, and they’d be producing them in large numbers, while working on improving the design (ie RPG). Allied tankers and support vehicles would have a tough time if every German and Russian soldier was carrying one.

    Ric350
     
  11. StrikeEcho Procrastinating

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    I'm pretty sure APDS has been developed for the 17lbr at this point, although with the accuracy of early APDS I don't know what value that will bring. I'm also expecting the 32lbr Vickers AA gun will be used as an AT gun in areas with heavy Wolf concentration, in the same way as the Flak 88.
     
  12. ric350 Well-Known Member

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    One other thing, wouldn’t the Soviets have the same problem supplying the Wolf tank as the Germans did IOTL with the Tigers? That is, rail and bridge transport. It might even be a bigger issue for the Soviets as their rail networks thin out the further east you go. I would imagine these rail lines, and bridges would be under constant allied air attack. They could wind up with large stocks of tanks ready to go, but limited means to deliver them to the front.

    Ric350
     
  13. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    IDK. The Soviet logistics would be in far better shape than in OTL (No Barbarrosa), they are far away from Allied bombers (and not only the B29 won't be in combat for some time yet, this time it will be facing jet fighters) and worse come the worse, if they managed to rebuild the rail networks in OTL, they may very well increase their capacity ITTL
     
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  14. rush4you Recent Polandball convert

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    Pleas tell us that the Yamato at least took down 3 German BBs and lots of smaller ships before being sunk, this kind of fight was precisely what it was built for, it would be really sad that it only participated as a cannon and torpedo sponge without giving back A LOT of punishment in return.
     
  15. Tannenberg Well-Known Member

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    Whats the future of Italy after the war? Italo Balbo is probably alive so he could be a good candidate to replace Mussolini
     
  16. BiteNibbleChomp I like watching Survivor.

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    Wikipedia gives APDS at 90 degrees as:
    500m - 256
    1000m - 233
    1500m - 213
    2000m - 194

    Doesn't have a table for any slopes, but I'd guess it has some chance of scoring a kill. Agree with you on the 32lber

    They managed fine with IS-2s as far as I know, and that was under much tougher conditions (Barbarossa and everything that came after that) than anything ITTL.

    Lots of smaller ships yes.
    No BB kills, but GroBdeutschland was left a floating wreck at the end of the first day (and many of the other BBs were pretty heavily smashed up too), and on the second day it is possible that one of Yamato's shells delivered the final blow to a KM BB (when there's 600 aircraft bombing the ships at the same time, impossible to tell exactly which bomb killed it).

    However, Yamato and SoDak did manage to fight to a draw six battleships while only numbering two on the first day. That's still a pretty good record.

    Mussolini stays in power until his death the 1950s. Haven't really thought of anything beyond that.

    - BNC
     
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  17. Anhtuan Well-Known Member

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    How many casualties in the battle from both side. Also, is there uhm.. any Japanese captain or admiral want to go down with their ship and lead to unnecessary death.
     
  18. DakotaTimeTraveler Well-Known Member

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    That is a hypothetical situation I've heard about - Hitler not being in power for whatever reason (killed ITTL) and someone else coming to power who is much more competent and effective at military leadership.

    Keep posting. I am eager to see how this will play out.
     
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  19. GDIS Pathe Well-Known Member

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    By this point the German Army is shot unless Stalin sends the Red Army to bail Germany out the fight against Berlin a forlorn conclusion
     
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  20. BiteNibbleChomp I like watching Survivor.

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    Around 2k for the Allies, 10k for the Germans (slightly less than Leyte). Once it was clear that the KM had been defeated and its surviving ships were retreating, lifeboats were launched to collect sailors from the sinking ships. Of course some stubborn captains refused to get on those lifeboats, including the captain of Yamato (Yamamoto was on board the Shinano, which was not sunk).

    - BNC
     
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