In the kingdom of Granada Sultan Abu Hassan was deposed by a palace coup after he married Zuraya a.k.a. Isabel de Solís and exiled his former wife, Aïxa al-Horra. His son by Aïxa, Muhammed XII Boabdil succeeded him. Fast forward a bit and Boabdil is deposed by the same man he had deposed. Abu Hassan died in 1485 (according to wikipedia), and was succeeded by Boabdil who was the final sultan of Granada.

Now for the WI: it be unthinkable for Abu Hassan when he retakes the throne to do what happened in the Ottoman Empire and have his predecessor murdered? Or was that a strictly Ottoman thing? Likewise, did Muhammed have any FULL siblings? Can only find his half-siblings Nasir/Fernando and Saïd/Juan de Granada.

And what of Aïxa? OTL the Granadans threw Abu Hassan out because of his slight on replacing her (a descendant of Mohammed) with Zuraya? She seems unlikely to be one to let something like her son being murdered stop her - I mean, she was the one who advocated that Granada use the women, children and elderly to fight the Reconquista. She's also author of the famed quote to Boabdil "thou dost weep as a woman for what thou couldst not defend as a man!" So, I feel she'd definitely be a force to be reckoned with, son or no.
 

Georgie777

Banned
In the kingdom of Granada Sultan Abu Hassan was deposed by a palace coup after he married Zuraya a.k.a. Isabel de Solís and exiled his former wife, Aïxa al-Horra. His son by Aïxa, Muhammed XII Boabdil succeeded him. Fast forward a bit and Boabdil is deposed by the same man he had deposed. Abu Hassan died in 1485 (according to wikipedia), and was succeeded by Boabdil who was the final sultan of Granada.

Now for the WI: it be unthinkable for Abu Hassan when he retakes the throne to do what happened in the Ottoman Empire and have his predecessor murdered? Or was that a strictly Ottoman thing? Likewise, did Muhammed have any FULL siblings? Can only find his half-siblings Nasir/Fernando and Saïd/Juan de Granada.

And what of Aïxa? OTL the Granadans threw Abu Hassan out because of his slight on replacing her (a descendant of Mohammed) with Zuraya? She seems unlikely to be one to let something like her son being murdered stop her - I mean, she was the one who advocated that Granada use the women, children and elderly to fight the Reconquista. She's also author of the famed quote to Boabdil "thou dost weep as a woman for what thou couldst not defend as a man!" So, I feel she'd definitely be a force to be reckoned with, son or no.

Wait, so what would be the implications of this? A resurgent Granada?
 
Wait, so what would be the implications of this? A resurgent Granada?

I was thinking more along the lines of the Ottoman or Persian empires when the sultan dies - maybe that Granada has to deal with a civil war within (between supporters of Muhammed XIII (Abu Hassan's brother) and Nasir (Abu Hassan's son)) at the same time as that the Castilians come knocking.
 
Anybody got any thoughts/comments?

None at all, but it a different reconquista would be fun. Wasn't there a case of Fernando and Isabel not being quite sure what to do with Boabdil when they caught him in the 1480s? Aisha was willing to ransom him, Abu Hassan wasn't, or something like that. And the main reason that they took the ransom was because they knew he was a dividing influence in the sultanate. Here, if he's removed from the picture, they (theCatholic Monarchs) are facing a less divided state and they're down a ransom payment
 
None at all, but it a different reconquista would be fun. Wasn't there a case of Fernando and Isabel not being quite sure what to do with Boabdil when they caught him in the 1480s? Aisha was willing to ransom him, Abu Hassan wasn't, or something like that. And the main reason that they took the ransom was because they knew he was a dividing influence in the sultanate. Here, if he's removed from the picture, they (theCatholic Monarchs) are facing a less divided state and they're down a ransom payment

That could actually make for an interesting idea. I don't say that Granada will survive, but if it's not riven by a rivalry between the sultan and his heir AND it doesn't have to pay for a ransom it could put up a different sort of resistence (against a poorer (due to lack of ransom) reconquista state).
 
That could actually make for an interesting idea. I don't say that Granada will survive, but if it's not riven by a rivalry between the sultan and his heir AND it doesn't have to pay for a ransom it could put up a different sort of resistence (against a poorer (due to lack of ransom) reconquista state).
It would also have more time to maybe get support from the Marinids and Ottomans.
 
It would also have more time to maybe get support from the Marinids and Ottomans.

Would said support be in any position to help them though? From what I've read (thanks to @John Frederick Parker for bringing it to my attention) the Ottomans were having their own troubles in Egypt (not to mention Sehzade Djem). Must profess ignorance of the Marinid state of affairs at the time.
 
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It would also have more time to maybe get support from the Marinids and Ottomans.

Quick wiki search says the Marinids were overthrown in the 1460s and replaced by a new dynasty (the Wattasids) in 1472. I know that the sultan of "Morocco" was friends with Boabdil (Muhammed XIII was killed in Fez by the Moroccan ruler who was friendly with Boabdil). However, was this friendship more just political usefulness? Cause I could imagine Aïxa's descent from the Prophet Mohammed being a bigger draw than say, Nasir bin Hassan's formerly Catholic mother?
 
It would also have more time to maybe get support from the Marinids and Ottomans.

Morocco maybe, but the Ottomans don't have the naval power projection nessicery to make any meaningful contribution to Western Med. without some bigger butterflies. Too many threats (and juicy targets) closer to home that need watching out for, especially if the end result is merely a free, rather than Ottoman-dominated, Grenada.
 
Morocco maybe, but the Ottomans don't have the naval power projection nessicery to make any meaningful contribution to Western Med. without some bigger butterflies. Too many threats (and juicy targets) closer to home that need watching out for, especially if the end result is merely a free, rather than Ottoman-dominated, Grenada.

Say the Ottomans were to get rid of (by some means, fair or foul) Sehzade Djem in the beginning of the 1480s (i.e. before Djem's European tour). They'd still by mired to the rims in Egypt? Or would there be resources freed up to support (although I wonder if it would be more than moral) their Islamic brethren in Spain?

Curiously enough, I was reading through an article on Djem, and apparently Ludovico 'il Moro' Sforza offered the Sehzade the hand of one of his illegitimate nieces/daughters. Now, that would be interesting enough (though I suspect the Vatican would be doing handstands and all manner of cartwheels to prevent such a match), but I was wondering about a possible wedding between Djem's daughter Aisha (b.1473) and Nasir? Aisha OTL wed the sultan of Egypt in 1495.
 
Qaitbay, right? And who is Nasir?

Djem's daughter married Qaitbay's son, Nasir ud-din Muhammad (b.1480) in 1495. So, either THAT Nasir, or (what I think) Nasir bin Hassan (Abu Hassan's son by Zuraida).

apparently Ludovico 'il Moro' Sforza offered the Sehzade the hand of one of his illegitimate nieces/daughters. Now, that would be interesting enough (though I suspect the Vatican would be doing handstands and all manner of cartwheels to prevent such a match

Wait what? A Christian princess wedding the Sehzade? Or his Christianized son? The son I can still them agreeing to it (maybe). To the Muslim Sehzade? Suddenly I'm thinking of Caterina Sforza, la tigre d'Imola, wearing a turban and harem pants and whupping some Ottoman ass :)
 
Say the Ottomans were to get rid of (by some means, fair or foul) Sehzade Djem in the beginning of the 1480s (i.e. before Djem's European tour). They'd still by mired to the rims in Egypt? Or would there be resources freed up to support (although I wonder if it would be more than moral) their Islamic brethren in Spain?

Curiously enough, I was reading through an article on Djem, and apparently Ludovico 'il Moro' Sforza offered the Sehzade the hand of one of his illegitimate nieces/daughters. Now, that would be interesting enough (though I suspect the Vatican would be doing handstands and all manner of cartwheels to prevent such a match), but I was wondering about a possible wedding between Djem's daughter Aisha (b.1473) and Nasir? Aisha OTL wed the sultan of Egypt in 1495.

It's not a matter of their being no resources for foreign adventures: any examination of early Ottoman history shows they have the resources and talent to expand. Its that, weather motivated primarily by service to The Faith or practical political concerns, there is every reason to use those resources more efficently on targets closer to home. The Beys and Kurdish tribes in Eastern Anatolia need to be kept an eye on less they break off from (only recently established) Ottoman rule, the Ventians still have fortresses on the Peloponnese, a large navy and outposts in the Aegean that threaten the communications and commerce between the Asian and European halves of the Empire, the Crusader Knights are still on Rhodes and messing with the Pilgrimage convoys and caravans. The Egyptians also have to be watched and countered; they're too powerful and have too many interests in south-eastern Anatolia to be safely ignored. The Magyars could come knocking and Belgrade needs to be seized to fully solidify the Ottoman hold on the Balkans... among many many other things viaing for the Sultan's attention.

There's also the fact that, in order to get said aid to the Western Med, you have to be able to project a great degree of naval force past Sicily, Malta, Mainland Italy, Sardinia, and across the North African coast over 10,000 miles, with the ability to beat off any naval challange along the way, and keep that line of communication/supply/renforcement open so you can either A) Bring the boys back home if things go sour or B) Stay to protect your new vassal so the Spainards don't just waltz in the second you leave. And IF for some reason the Ottomans have that much naval power that they aren't using to check the Venetians... why not just use it to continue their invasion of Italy and waltz up to seize Rome, as the Prophet commanded? Its not like your position in Spain would ever be secure so long as the Christians have control over that giant peninsula jutting right against your supply line anyways.

Basically, said Jihad is going to run into all the same logistical problems the Crusades ran into that made their success in most cases a miracle/scourge from Allah for impiety/absurdly fortunate.
 
Qaitbay, right? And who is Nasir?

Nasir/Fernando de Granada, elder son of Abu Hassan and Isabel de Solís.

It's not a matter of their being no resources for foreign adventures: any examination of early Ottoman history shows they have the resources and talent to expand. Its that, weather motivated primarily by service to The Faith or practical political concerns, there is every reason to use those resources more efficently on targets closer to home. The Beys and Kurdish tribes in Eastern Anatolia need to be kept an eye on less they break off from (only recently established) Ottoman rule, the Ventians still have fortresses on the Peloponnese, a large navy and outposts in the Aegean that threaten the communications and commerce between the Asian and European halves of the Empire, the Crusader Knights are still on Rhodes and messing with the Pilgrimage convoys and caravans. The Egyptians also have to be watched and countered; they're too powerful and have too many interests in south-eastern Anatolia to be safely ignored. The Magyars could come knocking and Belgrade needs to be seized to fully solidify the Ottoman hold on the Balkans... among many many other things viaing for the Sultan's attention.

There's also the fact that, in order to get said aid to the Western Med, you have to be able to project a great degree of naval force past Sicily, Malta, Mainland Italy, Sardinia, and across the North African coast over 10,000 miles, with the ability to beat off any naval challange along the way, and keep that line of communication/supply/renforcement open so you can either A) Bring the boys back home if things go sour or B) Stay to protect your new vassal so the Spainards don't just waltz in the second you leave. And IF for some reason the Ottomans have that much naval power that they aren't using to check the Venetians... why not just use it to continue their invasion of Italy and waltz up to seize Rome, as the Prophet commanded? Its not like your position in Spain would ever be secure so long as the Christians have control over that giant peninsula jutting right against your supply line anyways.

Basically, said Jihad is going to run into all the same logistical problems the Crusades ran into that made their success in most cases a miracle/scourge from Allah for impiety/absurdly fortunate.

Fair enough. So help from the Ottoman Sultan's a no-go. Would the Wattasids be interested in helping Granada? Could they? I mean, Granada could say to the Wattasid ruler, "listen if Granada falls, these Castilians are coming after Morocco* next" sort of thing.
 
Fair enough. So help from the Ottoman Sultan's a no-go. Would the Wattasids be interested in helping Granada? Could they? I mean, Granada could say to the Wattasid ruler, "listen if Granada falls, these Castilians are coming after Morocco* next" sort of thing.

Sure: if Granada is willing to submit to Wattasid suzerainty. Send tribute payments, mint coins with the Wattasid Sultan on it and say the Friday prayers in his name, ect.
 
Sure: if Granada is willing to submit to Wattasid suzerainty. Send tribute payments, mint coins with the Wattasid Sultan on it and say the Friday prayers in his name, ect.

So basically just a change of who they're paying tribute to then (Morocco rather than Castile)? Considering Abu Hussan's whole attitude to paying tribute to Castile in the first place, I don't see him exactly jumping at this idea. Nasir/Fernando might - especially if his other option is to pay the "infidel". Is there any other way besides kowtowing to the Moroccan sultan in the manner mentioned, that an alliance might be possible? And what might the effects of such an alliance be? Could they hold off Castile that Granada's got a place in the sun? Or is it just a case of delaying the inevitable?
 
So basically just a change of who they're paying tribute to then (Morocco rather than Castile)? Considering Abu Hussan's whole attitude to paying tribute to Castile in the first place, I don't see him exactly jumping at this idea. Nasir/Fernando might - especially if his other option is to pay the "infidel". Is there any other way besides kowtowing to the Moroccan sultan in the manner mentioned, that an alliance might be possible? And what might the effects of such an alliance be? Could they hold off Castile that Granada's got a place in the sun? Or is it just a case of delaying the inevitable?

The thing about alliances is that they're partnerships between equals: I.E both sides have something substantial and desirable to offer to the other. Granada, in this case, is petitioning for protection but doesn't have the resources to spare to back Morocco on anything relevant (and both sides know it). At this point in time the state is simply too weak to get the dedicated protection it needs without accepting junior status in its relationship.

As for holding off Castile-Aragon: sure, its possible. Especially since Isabella's relationship with the Portuguese and French are still rather chilly. If you see the crowns breaking apart for one reason or another or lasting long enough for the Ottomans to get their suzerainty over North Africa and sufficiently clip the wings of Venice and Egypt, I'd even dare to say they could get into a cozy protected relationship underneath them eventually (With a light rule due to distance... which potentially opens up the opportunity for colonization). Iberia isen't destined to unify.
 
The thing about alliances is that they're partnerships between equals: I.E both sides have something substantial and desirable to offer to the other. Granada, in this case, is petitioning for protection but doesn't have the resources to spare to back Morocco on anything relevant (and both sides know it). At this point in time the state is simply too weak to get the dedicated protection it needs without accepting junior status in its relationship.

As for holding off Castile-Aragon: sure, its possible. Especially since Isabella's relationship with the Portuguese and French are still rather chilly. If you see the crowns breaking apart for one reason or another or lasting long enough for the Ottomans to get their suzerainty over North Africa and sufficiently clip the wings of Venice and Egypt, I'd even dare to say they could get into a cozy protected relationship underneath them eventually (With a light rule due to distance... which potentially opens up the opportunity for colonization). Iberia isen't destined to unify.

Well, I'm playing on Isabel's chilly relationship with the French and Portuguese (and the English, since Joao II is wed to Elizabeth of York, and Isabel had a long memory about being jilted for Liz Wydeville). However, her eldest daughter is now promised to the dauphin (something neither she nor her husband are happy about). But with two/three sons from her and Fernando's marriage, I don't see the Castile-Aragon union breaking soon (unless they leave Castile to one son and Aragon to another).

I know the Catholic monarchs didn't honour their promises to the Granadan Muslims, or Boabdil (OTL Fernando apparently couldn't have cared less about their religion as long as he could tax them, it was apparently the dinning of Torquemada, Talavera(?) and Isabel that held that those promises were worthless). But if Nasir converts to Catholicism (as he, mom and brother did OTL), would the Catholic Monarchs deal differently with them? I mean, sure he can't be "king of Granada" but he seemed to do alright for himself OTL. As did his brother, Saïd/Juan.
 
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