The Triumph of Etienne Marcel

[SteveW]

The POD for this TL is about ten yards and a little more anger...resulting in the removal of the future Charles V of France.

22nd February 1358- Having killed the Marshals of Champagne and Normandy before the very eyes of the Dauphin, Charles, a 3,000-strong mob of Parisians under Etienne Marcel lynch the Dauphin himself. With John II in English captivity, there is now no clear authority. Marcel now holds executive power in Paris.

24th February- Somewhat stunned by events, Marcel convenes the States-General, which in Paris is now dominated by the Third Estate. Amongst the members of the States-General is the Bishop of Laon. Reform plans, previously rejected by the King, are now back under discussion.

12th March- News of these events reaches England. John II is distraught. Edward III is secretly pleased and orders a representative be sent to Paris to talk to Etienne Marcel. John's other offspring remain quiet for now, not one daring to call themselves Dauphin.

14th March- The States-General refuses to accept Charles II of Navarre as King, swearing its continuing loyalty to John II but insisting on reform. They declare Louis of Anjou as John's heir.

15th March- with gangs of raiders and criminals loyal to Charles of Navarre infesting the countryside, the SG announces the raising of a militia.

27th April- An English representative holds secret talks with Etienne Marcel.

7th May- Treaty of Chartres between Edward III and John II begins to be written. It is widely expected that France will suffer greatly.

12th May- Supported and armed by the Paris Militia, peasant groups in the Ile de France begin to attack the raiding groups.

17th May- Treaty of Chartres signed. Edward III gains all of Perigord, Gascony, and the Pas de Calais. France recovers Normandy and Touraine [all this is as in OTL's Treaty of Bretigny]. England is granted a free hand to deal with Flanders and Brittany. Edward III warns John not to touch the States-General or Etienne Marcel- Edward's motivation is to keep Paris and the French monarchy weakened. The Black Prince will be sent to deal with Navarrese raiders in French lands as a gesture of goodwill.

18th May- Humiliated, John II sets off for Paris.

20th May- A Marcel supporter murders his enemy, Jean Maillard, at the Place de Greve. Over the next three days, dozens of Maillard supporters will be executed.

Comments/ thoughts?

 

[stevep]

The POD for this TL is about ten yards and a little more anger...resulting in the removal of the future Charles V of France.

22nd February 1358- Having killed the Marshals of Champagne and Normandy before the very eyes of the Dauphin, Charles, a 3,000-strong mob of Parisians under Etienne Marcel lynch the Dauphin himself. With John II in English captivity, there is now no clear authority. Marcel now holds executive power in Paris.

24th February- Somewhat stunned by events, Marcel convenes the States-General, which in Paris is now dominated by the Third Estate. Amongst the members of the States-General is the Bishop of Laon. Reform plans, previously rejected by the King, are now back under discussion.

12th March- News of these events reaches England. John II is distraught. Edward III is secretly pleased and orders a representative be sent to Paris to talk to Etienne Marcel. John's other offspring remain quiet for now, not one daring to call themselves Dauphin.

14th March- The States-General refuses to accept Charles II of Navarre as King, swearing its continuing loyalty to John II but insisting on reform. They declare Louis of Anjou as John's heir.

15th March- with gangs of raiders and criminals loyal to Charles of Navarre infesting the countryside, the SG announces the raising of a militia.

27th April- An English representative holds secret talks with Etienne Marcel.

7th May- Treaty of Chartres between Edward III and John II begins to be written. It is widely expected that France will suffer greatly.

12th May- Supported and armed by the Paris Militia, peasant groups in the Ile de France begin to attack the raiding groups.

17th May- Treaty of Chartres signed. Edward III gains all of Perigord, Gascony, and the Pas de Calais. France recovers Normandy and Touraine [all this is as in OTL's Treaty of Bretigny]. England is granted a free hand to deal with Flanders and Brittany. Edward III warns John not to touch the States-General or Etienne Marcel- Edward's motivation is to keep Paris and the French monarchy weakened. The Black Prince will be sent to deal with Navarrese raiders in French lands as a gesture of goodwill.

18th May- Humiliated, John II sets off for Paris.

20th May- A Marcel supporter murders his enemy, Jean Maillard, at the Place de Greve. Over the next three days, dozens of Maillard supporters will be executed.

Comments/ thoughts?

Steve

Interesting. The neighbouring states are likely to be bitterly hostile to the revolutionary situation in France and there is likely to be intervention to suppress Marcel's people before it starts giving other peasants ideas.

I am rather surprised therefore that the conservative Edward is willing to treaty with them. True it is in his interests but very much against his beliefs from what I have read.

It makes some sense that the rebels have given Edward a free hand in Flanders where, if I remember right there was a pro-English merchant/townsfolk group facing a pro-French nobility. Also the situation in Brittany where a local Breton candidate for the throne was supported by Edward while the French monarchist had backed a French candidate. Could be very good for Edward if he is able to secure the various lands against the French claims and preferably - for him - a long conflict or at least period of tension between Marcel's group and the more conservative neighbouring states. It also means he might be free to finally defeat the Scots threat although that could led to more warfare when the country really could do with some peace.

Steve

 

[SteveW]

Steve (great name, isn't it?)

Cheers for your ideas. The treaty is actually with the captive John II. Sounds a bit bizarre but in OTL Edward did the same thing- except in this case, he is in a stronger position to bargain with. Most of the territorial stuff is lifted from the real treaty, the Treaty of Bretigny.

Marcel's men were not really rebels in the usual sense, they didn't ally with the countryside rebels. My hope in this TL is that by encouraging Marcel and his ilk, Edward is aiming to weaken the French monarchy for his own ends.

I'm writing up an update at the moment, should have it on here soon. Etienne Marcel will have a very decisive part to play, and Edward will be exploiting his free hand in Brittany and Flanders...

Regards,

Steve

 

[stevep]

Steve (great name, isn't it?)

Cheers for your ideas. The treaty is actually with the captive John II. Sounds a bit bizarre but in OTL Edward did the same thing- except in this case, he is in a stronger position to bargain with. Most of the territorial stuff is lifted from the real treaty, the Treaty of Bretigny.

Marcel's men were not really rebels in the usual sense, they didn't ally with the countryside rebels. My hope in this TL is that by encouraging Marcel and his ilk, Edward is aiming to weaken the French monarchy for his own ends.

I'm writing up an update at the moment, should have it on here soon. Etienne Marcel will have a very decisive part to play, and Edward will be exploiting his free hand in Brittany and Flanders...

Regards,

Steve

I agree, its amazing that all the charming, intelligent, sexy etc people have that name! Fortunately we're such humble, modest people else we would be insufferable.

What you say fits in with what I've read. [Not sure how confortable John would have been with such a situation]. Its important for Edward that he makes the deal and gets John out of the way before John dies in captivity, which I think is what happened historically. The money raised to pay for his liberty went on reforming the French state and army and played a big part in the French recovery in the following years.

I think the treaty was pretty much as you said, apart from the bits about Brittany and Flanders. [Not sure why Edward didn't try and secure Brittany]. Did read it was fatally delayed because Edward started getting greedy and trying to restore the full inheritance, with Normandy, Anjou etc.


Steve

 

[Faeelin]

14th March- The States-General refuses to accept Charles II of Navarre as King, swearing its continuing loyalty to John II but insisting on reform. They declare Louis of Anjou as John's heir.

Wasn't Marcel allied to Charles II in OTL?


I look foward to seeing where you take this; but while Marcel wanted power for himself, the Estates wanted good government. If Marcel's crippling the king without doing something to ensure a return of stability...

 

[SteveW]

Wasn't Marcel allied to Charles II in OTL?


I look foward to seeing where you take this; but while Marcel wanted power for himself, the Estates wanted good government. If Marcel's crippling the king without doing something to ensure a return of stability...

Marcel was planning to, but was murdered before he could. In this TL though, John II returns earlier and the Estates have more power, Marcel acting as a proto-Prime Minister. So Charles of Navarre is out of the picture with John's return. Stability will return slowly.

I'd forgotten this TL (busy writing a French lit dissertation) but if you're interested, I'll post some more later on, it's written down already. Thanks for the interest and feedback!

 

[SteveW]

24th May- Accompanied by Bertrand de Guesclin, John II arrives at the agtes of Paris. The Estates-General refuse to allow him in until he signs the "Charte de Franchises", often said to be France's equivalent of the Magna Carta, listing civic freedoms and regulating tax collection. With the Black Prince nearby "keeping the peace", John agrees to this.

1st June- At 4 a.m., the militia arrests Du Guesclin. By 6 a.m he has been handed over to the Black Prince. At noon, John II finds out but is powerless to move against the Estates-General, Marcel, or the Militia. Within days, Du Guesclin is taken to Calais and hanged, drawn and quartered.

June 1358- Realising the game is up, and worried about Aragonese activity, Charles of Navarre recalls all his troops to Navarre.

August 1358- On his father's instructions, The Black Prince leaves the Ile-de-France and heads for the Pas de Calais. Marcel and the States-General order the construction of 3 new bridges over the Seine: the Ponts Jean II, des Franchises and Neuf.

1359- From January onwards, English ships attack Flemish shipping. Louis of Flanders begs for French help, but the Treaty of Chartres prevents them from helping.

March 1359- Moving east from Calais, English and Welsh forces decimate Flemish forces along the coast. Ypres is sacked. Brabantine forces seal their border with Flanders. Wenecelas of Luxembourg, husband of Joanna of Brabant, stabbed to death in Brussels.

April 1359- Battle of Veurne. A Flemish counter-attack is decimated. More English troops land at Knokke. Louis II flees to France.

June 1359- Ghent falls to the English. Etienne Marcel re-elected as Provost of Paris, now effectively a Prime Minister.

September 1359- John of Gaunt now installed as the New Count of Flanders, and is soon raised to Prince by Edward III.

January 1360- John of Gaunt, now Jan I of Flanders, summons John Wycliffe to set up a university at Ghent.

 

[Faeelin]

24th May- Accompanied by Bertrand de Guesclin, John II arrives at the agtes of Paris. The Estates-General refuse to allow him in until he signs the "Charte de Franchises", often said to be France's equivalent of the Magna Carta, listing civic freedoms and regulating tax collection. With the Black Prince nearby "keeping the peace", John agrees to this.

One thing that occurs to me. In OTL, the Magna Carta was forced upon the king by the barons. In France, the Third Estate is forcing restrictions upon the monarchy, and it will end up as the monarchy's financial basis.

Wycliffe isn't quite the firebreather at this point, right? So what's going to happen to him?

 

[SteveW]

One thing that occurs to me. In OTL, the Magna Carta was forced upon the king by the barons. In France, the Third Estate is forcing restrictions upon the monarchy, and it will end up as the monarchy's financial basis.

Wycliffe isn't quite the firebreather at this point, right? So what's going to happen to him?

You're right. In this TL, the monarchy will keep its power but this will be put in check by the Estates-General. The EG will have some freedom in domestic matters though, up to a point.

As for Wycliffe- I'm currently planning for him to be a calmer figure. He was protected to an extent by John of Gaunt in OTL, so I sense it would not change in this TL. I think Ghent might wind up a centre of radical theological thinking. More to come soon, dissertation is done so I should have more time to write up some more.

 

[Iñaki]

Nice timeline.

Reading the timeline I remembered that in this moment there were an important war between Castilla and Aragon (While I am writing this I am reading an interesting and long article in a spanish history magazine about this war): the War of the Two Peters (Peter I of Castilla against Peter IV of Aragon), in this war the two Peters attempted to gain support to their cause and Peter of Castilla gain the support of England and Portugal and Peter of Aragon gain the support of France.

But in this ATL the history of France is different and also of England so the war of the Two peters is very possible that could be different.

In wikipedia there is no article about the War of two peters, by luck there is a chronology in the article in the spanish history magazine (I add some more things that there is not in the chronology but yes in the article -the international alliances of Castilla and Aragon-)

Chronology of the war of the Two Peters translated from Spanish history magazine Historia 16 Year 13 number 143

"1356 Incident between aragonese ships and genovese ships in Sanlucar de Barrameda (the aragonese ships attacked two genovese merchant ships in the castillian waters of Sanlucar de Barrameda). Peter I of Castilla that have some territorial an honour claims against Aragon uses this episode as a casus belli to declare the war. Beginning of the hostilities in the summer. Henry of Trastamara enters in the service of Aragonese king Peter IV. The castillians occupy temporally Alicante and put under siege Tarazona (autumn)

1357 Occupation of Tarazona. Peter I renounce to present battle in Magallon (march). The mediation of the Avignon Pope, Inocence IV and his legate Guillermo de la Jugue, makes possible a truce (may). Both sides search international supports. Peter I get the support of England and Portugal and Peter IV of France and Granada.

1358 The infant Don Fernando (step-brother of Peter IV and exiled in Castille) accors his support to Peter IV, reconciliation between the two step-brothers. Reopening of the war with a double aragonese offensive in Soria and Murcia. Siege of Medinaceli.

1359 Naval Expedition of Pedro I: he takes Guardamar ( a port near Elche) and defeats catalonian fleet in Sitges but fails in the attack to Barcelona (june). Henry of Trastamara (at the service of aragonese throne) defeats Juan Fernandez de Hinestrosa in Araviana (september).

1360. Peter IV recovers in exhange of great amount of money Tarazona. Victory of Peter I against Henry of Trastamara in Najera (april) -Henry was attempting invading Castill with support of aragonese troops to begin an uprising against Peter I-

1361. The pope legate Guido di Bologna get the peace of Terrer (13 may 1361) in this peace both sides accords returns all their conquests to the other side. Peter I intervenes in the civil war in Granada.

1362. Reopening of the war. The castillians take the initiative and menace Zaragoza.

1363. New campaign of Peter I: his troops arrive until Valencia. Because the arrival of aragonese reinforcements to Valencia, the castillians retreat until Murviedro. The peace of Murviedro (july) is very hard against Aragon: Peter I will marry Juana de Aragon and with a dower that includes Calatayud, Tarazona and Teruel. When the infant Don Fernando refuses accept this peace and want to go France with his followers Pedro IV with fear of this defection orders murder him under accussation of treason.
The diplomatic efforts of Peter IV get in august the alliance with Charles II. Peter I with the right feeling tha Peter IV not follow the dispositions of the Peace of Murviedro. invades Aragon and attacks Valencia (december)

1364 Victorious counteroffensive of Peter IV that obliges to Peter I to rise the siege of Orihuela.

1365. Peter IV retakes Murviedro. Bertrand Duguesclin put his White Companies to the service of Aragon.

1366 Henry of Trastamara is proclaimed king of Castilla in Calahorra. Begin of the castillian civil war. English troops supports Peter I.

1369. Defeated at Montiel Peter I is murdered by Henry of Trastamara in the tent of de Duguesclin (22 march)"

But in this ATL the English seems more powerful than in OTL, so is possible that in this ATL the english helps more Peter I and this succeeds in making a total victory over Aragon and Peter IV has no more solution in this ATL because the hard english support to Peter I to accept with all his consequences the peace of Murviedro (so in this ATL the cession of Calatayud, Teruel and Tarazona would be effective and Peter I would married Juana of Aragon).

Also with this total defeat of Aragon and the support of England the castillian civil war never would happen and Peter I never would be murdered.

Conclusion: The Ettien Marcel POD could makes of Castilla the predominant power in the Iberian Peninsula.

 

[SteveW]

But in this ATL the English seems more powerful than in OTL, so is possible that in this ATL the english helps more Peter I and this succeeds in making a total victory over Aragon and Peter IV has no more solution in this ATL because the hard english support to Peter I to accept with all his consequences the peace of Murviedro (so in this ATL the cession of Calatayud, Teruel and Tarazona would be effective and Peter I would married Juana of Aragon).

Also with this total defeat of Aragon and the support of England the castillian civil war never would happen and Peter I never would be murdered.

Conclusion: The Ettien Marcel POD could makes of Castilla the predominant power in the Iberian Peninsula.

Inaki- very glad for your advice, I'm very weak on Spanish history. I was wondering how to deal with this, and I did think that the demise of Du Guesclin might have a big effect.

I think I might indeed let Peter survive. The Black Prince has his hands tied, but English and Welsh "mercenaries" might make their way to help Peter. With the turmoil in France still smouldering, no French mercenaries will be helping Henry. I might send some English troops via Gascony. What do you think to that?

 

[SteveW]

February 1360- John II of France grants lands in Normandy to the deposed Count of Flanders, who sets up a court in Rouen. The Pas de Calais sends its first MPs to Westminster. The Black Prince allows the Jews to return to the Pas de Calais.

April 1360- Edward III cancels further expansion in Ireland, saying "the treasure of the South concerns me more". Lionel of Antwerp arrives in Bordeaux as administrator of Gascony.

May 1360- The Black Prince marries the widow Joanna of Brabant.

October 1360- Helped by Welsh mercenary bowmen, John V of Brittany finally crushes the forces of Joanna of Dreux.

 

[Wendell]

February 1360- John II of France grants lands in Normandy to the deposed Count of Flanders, who sets up a court in Rouen. The Pas de Calais sends its first MPs to Westminster. The Black Prince allows the Jews to return to the Pas de Calais.

April 1360- Edward III cancels further expansion in Ireland, saying "the treasure of the South concerns me more". Lionel of Antwerp arrives in Bordeaux as administrator of Gascony.

May 1360- The Black Prince marries the widow Joanna of Brabant.

October 1360- Helped by Welsh mercenary bowmen, John V of Brittany finally crushes the forces of Joanna of Dreux.

Will this action concerning Ireland have long-term implications?

 

[SteveW]

Will this action concerning Ireland have long-term implications?

It will indeed. Other than the Pale and the east coast, where the English are entrenched, Ireland will be left to her own devices. Which means a civil war for control...

In OTL, Edward sent Lionel of Antwerp to deal with Ireland. But here, he is in Gascony instead.

 

[jacob7111]

Sorry fir butting in, but I only have 15 minutes to be on the internet. Can anyone look at my new thread and reply in? it would be a great help

 

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by SteveW
Inaki- very glad for your advice, I'm very weak on Spanish history. I was wondering how to deal with this, and I did think that the demise of Du Guesclin might have a big effect.

I think I might indeed let Peter survive. The Black Prince has his hands tied, but English and Welsh "mercenaries" might make their way to help Peter. With the turmoil in France still smouldering, no French mercenaries will be helping Henry. I might send some English troops via Gascony. What do you think to that?

I like the idea. An interesting chain of events to make Peter I survive and Castilla predominant in the Iberian Peninsula could be this:

1363 Peace of Murviedro. This begin the differences in the spanish history of OTL. Peter IV seeks for new alliances to elude applying the disfavourable treaty of Murviedro, Charles II has fear to confront Castilla that is allied with England a nation in this ATL more powerful than in OTL, apart of this while English and Welsh mercenaries help Peter I, no help is expected to arrive from France to Peter IV. Because this situation more disfavourable that in OTL Charles II of Navarre is more reluctant to sign an alliance with Peter IV.

Peter IV desperate attempts to use Henry of Trastamara to begin a civil war in Castilla.

1363. August: Henry of Trastamara invades Castilla . Beginning of the civil war in Castill. Henry is supported by Peter IV.

1364-66 Castillian civil war. With help from english mercenaries sent via Gascony to help Peter I this defeats Henry and kills him.

1367. After the defeat of Henry Peter IV is obligated to accept the obligations of the peace of Murviedro.

Consecuences in the future: apart of clearly the no death of Peter I and Castilla as predominant power in Iberian Peninsula, Henry of Trastamara is died so the OTL Caspe Pact of 1412 that gives the throne of Aragon to Trastamara wont happens the same in TTL because the death of Henry of Trastamara.

You have made a very nice timeline. Please continue with it

 

[SteveW]

Really like the ideas. I'll look over this all again tomorrow when I finish work, and see how it all fits together. Again, cheers for the help, and cheers to you all for the support!

 

[SteveW]

1360- November- A Gascon expedition sets out to explore the North West coast of Africa.

1361-January- Wycliffe announces the opening of the University of Ghent. Modelled on his alma mater, Oxford, it starts with four colleges: Universiteit, Koningin Fillipa, Sint-Pieter and Sint-Jan. This is the first university in the Low Countries and becomes a haven for radical theologians.

March-Phillip of Burgundy dies of plague. Edward III agrees that John II may annex the duchy, but the territories in the Low Countries plus Luxembourg have to be handed to John of Gaunt.

May-Work begins on a new harbour at Antwerp.

1362:

February-The Gascon expedition seize an island, which they name Ile du Lion in honour of Lionel of Antwerp [OTL Lanzarote]. Within a few months, the Canaries are under the flag of St. George. The same month, Edward III orders the construction of a ring of castles around Calais.

June- Tiring of Ireland, Edward III pays off some of the nation's massive debt by selling the east coast of Ulster to the Scots. Never again does he engage the Scots in war.

July-As forced to under the agreement he signed, John II convenes the Estates-General for annual talks on all governmental matters. John of Gaunt, after a petition by the burghers of Bruges and Ghent, agrees to a plan to build a canal linking those cities to the port of Antwerp.

September- Joanna of Brabant bears the Black Prince a daughter, Phillipa.

1363

-Pedro the Cruel of Castille asks for English help against his brother, Enrique of Trastamara. Edward III acquiesces, and Lionel of Antwerp heads south with an army. English and Welsh mercenaries also pass through.
-Aragonese troops invade Castille in support of Enrique.
-England and Castille thrash out a deal with Portugal and Navarre: they will join the war, in return for Galicia (Portugal) and a free hand in Catalonia (Navarre).

1364

January- Joanna of Brabant bears an heir, naming him Henry.
March- Portuguese soldiers capture Enrique in battle. He is roasted alive in Madrid, and his revolt begins to melt away.
May- Allied troops cross into Aragon. Lionel is under orders to capture the King. Blanche of Lancaster bears John of Gaunt's heir, Jan of Antwerp.
November- The court of Aragon deposes the King and sues for peace.

 

[Faeelin]

ebruary-The Gascon expedition seize an island, which they name Ile du Lion in honour of Lionel of Antwerp [OTL Lanzarote]. Within a few months, the Canaries are under the flag of St. George. The same month, Edward III orders the construction of a ring of castles around Calais.

Hmm. I'm afraid that I don't get this. Why are the Gascons exploring if they didn't in OTL?

June- Tiring of Ireland, Edward III pays off some of the nation's massive debt by selling the east coast of Ulster to the Scots. Never again does he engage the Scots in war.

Had the Scottish king been returned yet?

 

[fhaessig]

1st June- At 4 a.m., the militia arrests Du Guesclin. By 6 a.m he has been handed over to the Black Prince. At noon, John II finds out but is powerless to move against the Estates-General, Marcel, or the Militia. Within days, Du Guesclin is taken to Calais and hanged, drawn and quartered.

Not a Chance. OTL, there was quite a lot of mutual respect between Du Guesclin and the Black Prince. When the Black Prince captured Du Guesclin in Spain, he refused to sell him to his ennemies, despite an offer of his weight in gold. He later set Du Gesclin free for a ransom he allowed Du Guesclin to set ( which Du Gueclin proceeded to set quite high, despite his personnal poverty, but that's another story ).

What will happen is that the arresting officers delivering Du Guesclin to the black Prince will be whipped out of his camp - if he's feeling generous -. If the black Prince is in a bad mood or if Du Guesclin has been badly treated, it's the areesting officers which will be hanged drawn and quartered. The The Black prince will throw a feast for Du Guesclin as his honored guest and propose him an english escort to bring him safely where he wants, likely home in brittany. Of course, he will also propose Du Guesclin to come to english service....