The Triumph of Barbarossa and the Victory of the Holy Roman Empire
- Thread starter The Stormlord
- Start date
There's a problem.
If this Fourth Crusade have the same partecipants and patrons as the Fourth in OTL why should they stop at Costantinople? The venetians diverted the OTL Crusade to tackle commercialy and politically their most feared enemy. Why should they ferry this Crusade from Italy to Alexandria via Costantinople?
And, most important: the victory of Barbarossa means a more powerful Holy Roman Empire and a more stable Imperial seat. There should be less squabbling between the nobles and a more firm grip of the Empire on its provinces...including its italian territories. I don't think that the Italian City States could prosper in this scenario: probably you should flesh out something about that, because if we rule out the Italian Citities the Outremer Kingdoms are in a logistical nightmare. And what about the Eastern Roman Empire? How the success of the Third Crusade affected it and the Seljuks?
A large, very unstable Kingdom in a strategical position - both from the economical and the religious point of view. There will be a conflict that will put the OTL One Hundred Years War at shame...
How can it be that the imperial family gets nearly wiped out only years after the hereditary monarchy gets introduced in the HRE and a minor, largely unknown branh of the Hohenstauffens gets the throne unopposed? Taking OTL as an example, wiping out the Hohenstauffens should lead to a whole gang of Anti-kings, among them other noble houses and foreign monarchs who just happened to remember that the Emperor was elected in former times. And the pope would jump right into that.
Furthermore, I do not really understand why the HRE joins the war against France - and helps the English win. Balance of power would imply that the HRE switches sides sooner or later, for example against the French king accepting vassalage to the Empire or similar things? What the HRE essentially got right now is an Uber-France.
Furthermore, I do not really understand why the HRE joins the war against France - and helps the English win. Balance of power would imply that the HRE switches sides sooner or later, for example against the French king accepting vassalage to the Empire or similar things? What the HRE essentially got right now is an Uber-France.
Eurofed
Banned
Hm, on second thoughts, you are right.
They won't be City States at all, but I don't see why Italian, German, Flemish merchants should not be as successful or more than OTL, with a powerful centralized state backing them. Imperial taxes were not that crushing, and political autonomy not that important, for the success of Italian, Hansa, Low Countries urban trading eliites.
Very good question. Islam is taking a serious dewank from the success of the Crusades, and this should lead to to a revitalization of the ERE.
Economically instable, why ?
Eurofed
Banned
It has been a century since the HRE became hereditary and the Pope lost the power struggle with the Emperor, and the Hohenstaufen dynasty has been a very successful, charismatic, and efficient imperial line, with more than a century of ongoing centralization. Things are quite different from OTL. France is also suffering its own dynastic crisis and is in no position to intervene in the HRE one, and England is focused on the French one. If the new line has a clear link with the onld one, it is somewhat plausible that the dynastic transition takes place relatively unopposed. An OTL analogue occurred in France in the Capet-Valois transition.
Having said that, I remark that I'd have found the whole thing even more plausible if the Black Death had struck on its scheduled date in 1350, making it a full century and half since the establishment of the hereditary empire, and I cannot yet see a good reason why the plague struck earlier. The rest of the TL would have been left essentially unchanged.
It also depends on how big a chunk of Eastern France the empire did annex, but yeah. I'd rather have let the Hundred Years War equivalent end up in a complete partition of France between England and the HRE on a near-equal basis, or a near-complete one with France remaining as a minor buffer kingdom. At the very least, I expect that the HRE annexed Artois, Picardie, Champagne, Burgundy, Dauphine, and Provence, for its trouble. Anyway, crippling or destruction of France is to the HRE's substantial strategic advantage, since the Angevin Empire is not in all likelihood going to be as focused on expansion towards Central Europe and the Med as France was.
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No, politically instable but economically and religiously important.
ITL the Kingdom of Egypt merged with the Kingdom of Jerusalem...from a political point of view, this is a very delicate manoeuvre. There should be a lot of crowned heads in Europe frowning at the idea of such a Kingdom forming...and a lot more feudal lords in the Outremer Kingdoms that could use the political turmoil caused by the union of the two states to carve out even more independance from the Crown of Jerusalem.
The result is a potentially powerful Kingdom with a very weak standing army and unreliable vassals. That reminds me a lot of the decline of the OTL Eastern Roman Empire...I can easily picture some western power like the Kingdom of France or even the Holy Roman Empire that bite away little by little both land and prestige of this new Kingdom.
More questions:
> if the italian cities does not became independant states, who's going to take the mantle of economic/trading powerhouse ITL?
> How the presence of large Crusader Kingdoms at its doorstep influence the religion and military of the Eastern Roman Empire?
> According to the mindset of the time the success of the First, Third and Fourth Crusade should have convinced the europeans of the supremacy of their culture and religion. That's going to influence the cultural and technological development of this timeline a lot , possibly cutting off any kind of influence from middle eastern culture and causing a stagnation
The Path to the Anagennisi (Ioannis Melas)
Before talking about the Anagennisi, it is necessary to understand the nations of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and the Near East. Of these nations, Rhomanion was the most powerful. It had recently resettled Anatolia with Hellenised Slavs (the vast majority of the Turks had fled to the Northern Caucasus in the face of the Mongols), crushed Syria, and was reaching into Mesopotamia. In the Balkans, it had envassaled Serbia and Bosnia, and it had an unmatched military. Then, there was the Kingdom of Jerusalem-Egypt, a state sitting on a highly important (religiously and economically) region, but it had a weak standing army and unreliable vassals. It was also at the limit of its expansion, having pushed south to encompass all of Egypt.
It also saw Rhomanion as a rival, due to differing religions and the fact that Rhomanion wanted its territories. Also, it was an enemy of the Holy Roman Empire, due to long-standing diplomatic disputes over tolls for pilgrims passing through the Kingdom, but really due to the fact that Otto VI wanted the Kingdom's large wealth.
To the north, Poland was still recovering from the Mongols and the Plague. North of it lay the Kingdom of Prussia, a Kingdom of Christianised Prussians that the Plague had passed by, and was encroaching into Lithuania and Ruthenia. East of Poland and Prussia lay the territory of the Golden Horde, which ruled over Ruthenia and central Rossiya. North of it lay its puppet-states, Muscovy and the north-western state of Ryazan, which ruled over most of Western Russia. North of these states lay Novgorod, which maintained complete independence from the Horde and was the richest of the Russian states, as well as being at a nexus of trade in the Baltic.
So, the stage was set for one of the greatest flowerings of culture the world has ever seen.
Before talking about the Anagennisi, it is necessary to understand the nations of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and the Near East. Of these nations, Rhomanion was the most powerful. It had recently resettled Anatolia with Hellenised Slavs (the vast majority of the Turks had fled to the Northern Caucasus in the face of the Mongols), crushed Syria, and was reaching into Mesopotamia. In the Balkans, it had envassaled Serbia and Bosnia, and it had an unmatched military. Then, there was the Kingdom of Jerusalem-Egypt, a state sitting on a highly important (religiously and economically) region, but it had a weak standing army and unreliable vassals. It was also at the limit of its expansion, having pushed south to encompass all of Egypt.
It also saw Rhomanion as a rival, due to differing religions and the fact that Rhomanion wanted its territories. Also, it was an enemy of the Holy Roman Empire, due to long-standing diplomatic disputes over tolls for pilgrims passing through the Kingdom, but really due to the fact that Otto VI wanted the Kingdom's large wealth.
To the north, Poland was still recovering from the Mongols and the Plague. North of it lay the Kingdom of Prussia, a Kingdom of Christianised Prussians that the Plague had passed by, and was encroaching into Lithuania and Ruthenia. East of Poland and Prussia lay the territory of the Golden Horde, which ruled over Ruthenia and central Rossiya. North of it lay its puppet-states, Muscovy and the north-western state of Ryazan, which ruled over most of Western Russia. North of these states lay Novgorod, which maintained complete independence from the Horde and was the richest of the Russian states, as well as being at a nexus of trade in the Baltic.
So, the stage was set for one of the greatest flowerings of culture the world has ever seen.
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Was that term ever used, iOTL in Greek? It's obviously an analogue/translation of Re-naissance = Re-birth.
Eurofed
Banned
The HRE as a whole, with several regional centers of its own (northern Germany, Low Countries, Franconia, Bohemia, northern Italy, Sicily) sharing the role of economic/trade powerhouse with none totally dominating. OTL economically most dynamic areas (including Franconia, thanks to Hohenstaufen success) of the HRE are going to remain so, even within a centralized empire, but no area is going to be wholly dominant.
ITTL the theocratic evolution of the Western Christian Church has been prevented, the Pope humiliated, depowered, and made submissive to the secular power. Thus the main obstacle to an healing of the East-West schism has been removed. Most likely, we can expect a reconciliation between the Latin and Greek Churches, which shall grow to be much akin, largely decentralized with most of the power in the hands of the national episcopates under the supremacy of the Emperors and Kings, the Pope a marginalized figurehead, and the Ecumenic Council as the main universal authority for the Christian Church. Under this model, the main European powers such as the HRE, ERE, and Angevin Empire can coexist.
As it concerns the military future of the ERE, the success of the Crusades and later the Mongol onslaugfht has greately weakened the Muslim world, and the ERE can exploit this to its advantage, rather than seeking an immediate confrontation with Jerusalem-Egypt. The ERE can grab Syria and Mesopotamia, while J-E is busy deling its internal problems and expanding over all of Egypt. Later I predict a clash between J-E, HRE, and ERE, and the end of J-E, with Palestine being annexed by the ERE, Egypt becoming a vassal of the HRE, or even a direct HRE posession with a viceroy. Sooner or later, the Crusades/Reconquista are going to invest North Africa, too, with Iberic kingdoms and the HRE going on a conquest rampage. ITTL Islam is definitely going to be pushed back to the Sahel, Arabia, and Persia.
Hmm, the main effect, as me and others argued upthread, is that Christianity is going to become even more expansionistic and colonial-minded than OTL. The Crusader Kingdoms and the ERE are still going to act as a bridge to spread cultural and technological developments back to Europe. Even more than OTL, they shall be peddled as the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans being recovered, with the contributions of Islamic culture being willfully neglected. There is no substantial potential for stagnation, but Europe is going to become even more aggressive than OTL.
Eurofed
Banned
Just as I expected.
Unmatched except by the HRE.
They are the only two states that gave the Mongols a run for their money. On a stretch, it could have grabbed Cyrenaica or Nubia, too, but otherwise yeah.
A terracotta vase between two steel ones... I predict its eventual partition betwen the two imperial powerhouses, with the ERE getting Palestine and the HRE getting Egypt.
My expectations: Poland, Hungary, and Croatia, having been ravaged by the Mongols and being at the very doorstep of the HRE powerhouse, shall be utterly unable to resist political absorption and ethnic-cultural assimilation by the HRE. Novgorod shall be the driving force of Russian unification and the rollback of the Golden Horde ITTL. The Kingdom of Prussia shall more or less play the role of OTL Lithuania and the Teutonic Order combined, although Poland shall be off-limits due to HRE penetration.
Accelerated Renaissance. Likely, given the circumstances (more successful ERE, HRE, and Crusader kingdoms acting as an improved gatway for the mixing of European and Middle-Eastern knowledge, larger and stronger European empires and kingdoms giving better protection to the flourishing of urban trading elites and patronage to artists and scholars).
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So we are going to see a United Kingdom of England and France, a more stronger HRE and BE and Crusader states in Egypt and Holy Land... How amazing!
Anyway this is a very bad TL for Islamic world... It is going to die or it will managed to survive in other place... maybe soon an Islamic Russia...?
Anyway this is a very bad TL for Islamic world... It is going to die or it will managed to survive in other place... maybe soon an Islamic Russia...?
Anyway this is a very bad TL for Islamic world... It is going to die or it will managed to survive in other place... maybe soon an Islamic Russia...?
Islam will not be utterly annihilated - it is incredibly hard to eliminate a religion entirely, as both the Romans and the Germans learned. However, it will lose much of the Middle East and Africa. As for Muslim Russia, that requires ASB fiat, seeing as Russia has already been Christian for a while.
A History of the Uniate Church (Ioannis Melas)
In the year 1339 A.D, a great Ecumenical Council took place in Constantinople, its goal to heal the schism between East and West. Bishops from Rhomanion, the Holy Roman Empire, the Russian states, and the English Empire took part, and after ten years of finagling, it was decided that:
Not all were happy with these changes - Jerusalem-Egypt refused to accept the changes, and declared the Church of Jerusalem, which was effectively the same as the old Catholic Church, King Conrad III declaring himself the 'One and True Patriarch of the Christian Faith' while elsewhere rebellions occurred over the change in the Mass. Nevertheless, the Church was more united than it had been for centuries, even as the Anagennisi began.
In the year 1339 A.D, a great Ecumenical Council took place in Constantinople, its goal to heal the schism between East and West. Bishops from Rhomanion, the Holy Roman Empire, the Russian states, and the English Empire took part, and after ten years of finagling, it was decided that:
- There would be one Uniate Rite, Creed and Mass. The Uniate Mass would be in the local language (the Western bishops, after several years of obstinacy, managed to get over this). The Uniate Creed would be recited in Greek, Church Slavonic, or Latin depending on the region. The Uniate Rite would be in either Latin or Greek.
- The Church would be largely decentralised, with much of the power in the national episcopates under the authority of the local King or Emperor.
- The Uniate Church would be under the authority of an Ecumenical Council of Bishops from all over Christendom, headed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The Bishop of Rome was angry about this, until he was bribed with the position of Patriarch of Rome, effectively the Ecumenical Patriarch's second-in-command.
- Priests below the level of Bishop could marry, as in the East.
Not all were happy with these changes - Jerusalem-Egypt refused to accept the changes, and declared the Church of Jerusalem, which was effectively the same as the old Catholic Church, King Conrad III declaring himself the 'One and True Patriarch of the Christian Faith' while elsewhere rebellions occurred over the change in the Mass. Nevertheless, the Church was more united than it had been for centuries, even as the Anagennisi began.
Geez, it's only been half an hour. Have some patience, will you?
Regarding the Church, it'll be interesting to see how this will work out. With the church largely decentralized and powerless, and the masses held in local languages, my guess is that Latin probably won't have the same importance it did OTL.
- Kelenas
Regarding the Church, it'll be interesting to see how this will work out. With the church largely decentralized and powerless, and the masses held in local languages, my guess is that Latin probably won't have the same importance it did OTL.
- Kelenas