The Three Thrones

[Swede]

By this time the Russians in Petrograd far outnumbered the finns/ingrians/karelians on the ithmus iirc. Looks at another ithmus - is that the USCA I see?
Also, just noticed China hasn't lost any terretory yet. Any significance or is my circa 1900 Chinese history knowledge simply non-existant?

my nitpicking: shouldn't the newfies be pink too?

Why not a Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune?

 

[Justin Pickard]

By this time the Russians in Petrograd far outnumbered the finns/ingrians/karelians on the ithmus iirc. Looks at another ithmus - is that the USCA I see?

Kind of, a Federation of Central America emerges in response to the percieved threat of a US looking greedily southwards.

Also, just noticed China hasn't lost any terretory yet. Any significance or is my circa 1900 Chinese history knowledge simply non-existant?

Not any significance, more or less as per OTL.

my nitpicking: shouldn't the newfies be pink too?

Yes, I'll fix it.

Why not a Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune?

That's the vague idea. I need to work it out a bit. I'm thinking of having a Bakuninite set himself up in the Ukraine.

 

[Nicole]

By this time the Russians in Petrograd far outnumbered the finns/ingrians/karelians on the ithmus iirc. Looks at another ithmus - is that the USCA I see?

Well, yes, but only in the southern part... I see no reason why the region around Vyborg/Viipuri would be part of a Petrograd Commune... And as for population, Viipuri was the second-largest city in Finland...

 

[Justin Pickard]

Well, yes, but only in the southern part... I see no reason why the region around Vyborg/Viipuri would be part of a Petrograd Commune... And as for population, Viipuri was the second-largest city in Finland...

Okay, so the map's a bit off, but you get the general gist, yes? If it's really bothering you, I'll sort it.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Some input from you, please.

Right; here's what I need from you guys...

No French attempts to install Ferdinand Maximilian (1832-90) as Emperor of Mexico in the 1860s are dramatically more successful, with no Italian problems to contend with. Aided by French troops, Maximillian has sucessfully crushed the majority of resistance to his rule by 1866.

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US Presidents:

Stephen A. Douglas: 1860-68 (D)
John C. Breckinridge: 1868-75 (D)

Then what? In the background, a number of attacks on prominant pro-slavery plantation owners, political figures etc. and a number of daring covert operations to free slaves have been carried out in the name of 'The Children of Liberty', a secretive anti-slavery organisation based in the far North. Breckinridge declares war on French-controlled Mexico in 1873, after the French navy conducts a series of raids on slave ships off the East Coast (presumably at the bequest of the British, who have been in contact with anti-slavery activists in the North). Breckinridge dies in 1875, to be replaced by his VP (whoever that is - hopefully someone who doesn't like the French).

What happens next? Who'd be involved? I want the US to take the Eastern Peninsula of Mexico, which will ultimately be incorporated into the Californian 'bloc', plus a number of Mexican 'states' in the North-East. This precipitates massive backlash against the French in Mexico, and against the United States' presidency / establishmen by those die-hards in the North, who start talking about secession....

ANY IDEAS?

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In the absence of an American mission to Japan by Commodore Perry in 1854 (think of it as an extension of the Monroe Doctrine), Japan is coerced into opening to foregin trade by the Russians in the late 1870s. Foreign involvement triggers a civil war, with huges losses for both sides, ending in 1882 with a triumphant pro-modernizing faction, only to find the Russians not as friendly. This will come to explain a lot.

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Secondly, nihilist assasains succeed in bumping off Alexander II of Russia in 1879 in a move against the brutal policies of Russification being pursued at the time, blowing up the Royal Train. The assasains escape in the confusion (1). He is suceeded by his son, Alexander III - in TTL an embittered and paranoid singleton, who strengthens the Russian secret police to previously unheard of levels, strengthens Russification, crushes dissidents, enacts censorship, and is generally unpleasant. Russian relations with Prussia, Austria, Great Britain, Scandinavia and France cool rapidly in this period. In October 1890, an explosion in the basement of the Winter Palace injures Alexander, dramatically weakening him physically. He died from a stroke three months later. With no children, the Russian throne passes to Alexander's conservative brother, Vladimir (1847-1909). It is however, too late. Mass protests / uprisings throughout the country plunge Russia into total anarchy.

What's the course of the conflict? What emerges when it finally finishes in 1903? I know I want a Petrograd Commune (possibly other citiy Communes as well), a Livonia/Courland Baltic state, a Scandinavian Finland/Karelia, an anarchist Ukraine, and a Polish Byelorussia. I also want an embittered Pseudofascist Japan siezing some territory on the mainland. Alaska goes to Canada or, if not directly to Canada, at least to the British Empire in some form. A rump Russia must remain. You guys have seen the proposed map, can you come up with anything better with regards to new states? All ideas are welcome.

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(1) Nikolai Kibalchich, Sophia Perovskaya, Nikolai Rysakov, Timofei Mikhailov and Andrei Zhelyabov all survive in TTL. [INSERT BUTTERFLIES HERE]

 

[Othniel]

US Presidents:

Stephen A. Douglas: 1860-68 (D)
John C. Breckinridge: 1868-75 (D)

Then what? In the background, a number of attacks on prominant pro-slavery plantation owners, political figures etc. and a number of daring covert operations to free slaves have been carried out in the name of 'The Children of Liberty', a secretive anti-slavery organisation based in the far North. Breckinridge declares war on French-controlled Mexico in 1873, after the French navy conducts a series of raids on slave ships off the East Coast (presumably at the bequest of the British, who have been in contact with anti-slavery activists in the North). Breckinridge dies in 1875, to be replaced by his VP (whoever that is - hopefully someone who doesn't like the French).

What happens next? Who'd be involved? I want the US to take the Eastern Peninsula of Mexico, which will ultimately be incorporated into the Californian 'bloc', plus a number of Mexican 'states' in the North-East. This precipitates massive backlash against the French in Mexico, and against the United States' presidency / establishmen by those die-hards in the North, who start talking about secession....

ANY IDEAS?

Well as I said before the support for the Mexican-American War came from the South in support to spread its instution. The Free Soil party (A rasicist group that wanted the West for the White man alone.) will likely join up with abolishinists again in protest of this war. I'd say a democrat would most likely be in office if you want anouther war of expansion for the Baja penisula and annexation would fall on the states that traditionally Rebelled.

Coahuila and its neighbor State to the East, Nuevo Leon, have both attempt to seceed in the past as the Republicia de Sierra Madre, and then as Republicia Rio Grande.

I'd say after this war the tensions start up again, prehaps having a Republician, Populist, or Free Soil Party Member getting elected. This could lead to a different number of things happening.

EDIT: Also if Slavery continues past 1880 except Cuba to be annexed. And the Cuban land owners (& peasents) would acualtly like it...

 

[Justin Pickard]

Another map of 1905. I've fiddled with the Russian nations (Archangel as a Scandinavian satellite state?), and given a part of Mexico to the French, where they managed to consolidate control in the aftermath of the Mexican Civil War following the Amero-FrancoMexican conflict.

 

[DuQuense]

If the US is taking Cuba ?would it also take Santo Domingo?, there were possibilities there OTL, And If the US takes SD, ?What happens to Black lead Haiti.?

 

[DuQuense]

With both SD and Haiti being Free States, Black lead Free States, a Attemp by the US to move in on them, may lead to war with GB over the Slavery Issue. Queen Victoria as the Great Emancipator.

 

[Justin Pickard]

With both SD and Haiti being Free States, Black lead Free States, a Attemp by the US to move in on them, may lead to war with GB over the Slavery Issue. Queen Victoria as the Great Emancipator.

So, perhaps the Amero-Mexican war could spiral, with the British Navy backing up the French. A war fought on the American-Canadian border, the American-Mexican border, and at sea? Hmm... I need to check who the British Foreign Minister, Prime Minister, and Cabinet would be by this time. A very good idea, though.

 

[Swede]

This TL has plenty of interesting things going on

The way Brittain and France are getting close while for the most part staying out of Africa is setting up for some immense butterflies. Such as a possble alliance against the US, sounds like a build-up for a WW except I don't see any natural allies for the US. Also, who'd win that? with the US weakened (as compared to OTL) and France stronger, tho I guess the power-projection of the UK/France wouldn't be as developed as OTL.

As much as I like the idea of a SCandinavian puppet south/east of the White Sea, would the new Russia allow that? It'll be lacking good ports even with Arkhangelsk. Same goes for the Petrograd Commune. OTOH Scandinavia would deffinitavly support those buffers in Russia (as long as the Petrogradians don't try to export the revolution) as well as the Batlic state (settled on a name yet?).

[looks at map again]
Is that Ethiopia expanding over the whole Horn (and Kenya)? I'm supposing the Great Powers are content to have access to ports there and leave the running of those troublesome natives to other natives.

 

[Justin Pickard]

This TL has plenty of interesting things going on

Thank you very much. I think some varient social / cultural / ideological butterflies are going to have a huge impact later on.

The way Britain and France are getting close while for the most part staying out of Africa is setting up for some immense butterflies.

I'm thinking along the lines of a genuinely cordial Entente Cordiale, possibly with Scandinavia joining an Alliance of sorts at a later date.

Such as a possble alliance against the US, sounds like a build-up for a WW except I don't see any natural allies for the US.

It's not really big enough for a World War. In normal circumstances, the US could crush the French but, with the support of the Royal Navy, the US might have a tougher time. Cuba and Santa Domingo will probably be willingly occupied by the Americans at this time, being admitted as US states in the aftermath.

Also, who'd win that? with the US weakened (as compared to OTL) and France stronger

The US hasn't had to fight a Civil War in TTL, though, so - despite fewer immigrants - the army is probably quite well prepared. I'm thinking of the main conflict centred on the US-Mexican border, with the British Navy being dragged in later, a polarisation of opinion in the North of the US, and a Mexica n liberal counter-revolution in the south of the country - so that the French are forced to defend against two fronts.

As much as I like the idea of a SCandinavian puppet south/east of the White Sea, would the new Russia allow that?

I'm still trying to figure this out. Let us just say that, at this point, the map for 1905 is a work in progress. I don't think the 'new Russia' is going to be in much of a position to do anything for 10-15 years.

It'll be lacking good ports even with Arkhangelsk. Same goes for the Petrograd Commune. OTOH Scandinavia would deffinitavly support those buffers in Russia (as long as the Petrogradians don't try to export the revolution) as well as the Batlic state (settled on a name yet?).

I think that the Petrograd Commune is definite as an urban anarcho-syndicalist territory. The Archangel territories will probably in complete anarchy for a couple of years, with Scandinavian intervention helping to set up rudimentary state apparatus. The Ukraine is Anarcho-Communist, probably under a proto-Makhno-esque figure (I think Makhno himself might end up in charge in the 1920s). The Baltic State is Livonia, which has historic links with Sweden, and will probably be set up as a Constitutional Monarchy under one of the Bernadottes. I'm also thinking that Greater Poland will become, more or less officially, a Jewish state, with all that that entails.

Is that Ethiopia expanding over the whole Horn (and Kenya)? I'm supposing the Great Powers are content to have access to ports there and leave the running of those troublesome natives to other natives.

Yup. Culturo-technological leakage will mean that Africa will probably undergo a sped-up Industrial Revolution in the 1910s/20s. Egypt and Ethiopia are on the cards to modernise quickly and, in the longer term, take their places as significant world powers.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Breckinridge would definitely not die in 1875. Check out why he died then in OTL (I for one had a great laugh).

You want allies for the US? It is not that hard. Great Britain and France, its real enemies, are allied with Scandinavia; that makes them not very good friends of Russia and Prussia; continue all this on a global scale, and this is what you get: 1) Great Britain, France, Austria, Hungary, Turkey, Galicia, Japan, Portugal, Egypt, Mexico, Haiti; 2) United States, Russia, Prussia, China, Italia, Croatia, Ethiopia, Greece. Well, at least that's what I got.

The thing is, with my configuration you'll have to redo much of the map.

Also, do you honestly think Russia would not take an interest in the Balkans before collapsing? Or that the Balkans states would just sit on their butts even if it didn't?

It's been really great so far, but I'd like to see what's happening in other parts of the world: China, Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, India, South-East Asia, Australia, Canada, the American West, Egypt, Central Asia, the lesser German states. As far as I'm concerned, any place where something is occuring is important, and there was a lot of action going on in these places in OTL.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Breckinridge would definitely not die in 1875. Check out why he died then in OTL (I for one had a great laugh).

I can't find it anywhere. Please enlighten me...

You want allies for the US? It is not that hard. Great Britain and France, its real enemies, are allied with Scandinavia; that makes them not very good friends of Russia and Prussia; continue all this on a global scale, and this is what you get: 1) Great Britain, France, Austria, Hungary, Turkey, Galicia, Japan, Portugal, Egypt, Mexico, Haiti; 2) United States, Russia, Prussia, China, Italia, Croatia, Ethiopia, Greece. Well, at least that's what I got.

I don't particularly want a World War at this point in time. I think 1) France, Great Britain, Haiti vs. 2) United States, will do. I'm going to try and avoid an all-encompassing conflict until the mid C20th, if not completely. Lots of smaller wars.

Also, do you honestly think Russia would not take an interest in the Balkans before collapsing? Or that the Balkans states would just sit on their butts even if it didn't?

Of course Russia would take an interest. It's just that Alexander III's definition of 'interest' seems to be ruthlessly crushing any prospects of autonomy. His death is a trigger and the sucession of Tsar Vladimir only makes things worse. Some of the rebels would probably have ralleyed around his more liberal brother, Paul (b. 1860), leading to dramatically more prevalent infighting, with faction stuggles, shifting borders and secessionist movements gathering pace of all fronts. Furthermore, Japan has only just been opened up (somewhat later than OTL) and is somewhat pissed about the use of Russian military force to do so. A seizure of Manchuria, as far as the Japanese are concerned, is the first step on the road to modernisation and sucess.

It's been really great so far, but I'd like to see what's happening in other parts of the world: China, Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, India, South-East Asia, Australia, Canada, the American West, Egypt, Central Asia, the lesser German states. As far as I'm concerned, any place where something is occuring is important, and there was a lot of action going on in these places in OTL.

I'm going to tackle Egypt and the lesser German states soon. Need to do some more research of China, Sub-Saharan Africa, India etc. I think Australia and Canada are proceeding more or less as per OTL. Although, a Canadian Alaska could be on the cards. Whilst Newfoundland and Labrador could try to retain their independence.

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Incidentally, with the German states and alt-marriages, the Death of William III of the Netherlands in 1890 passes the Dutch throne to King Adolph (1817-93), creating a dynastic union of Nassau, Luxemburg and the Netherlands unders his son, also called Adolph (OTL 1859-1916). I can see an attempted overthrow of Prussian-controlled Westphalia by a Adolph-Scandinavian-Hannoverian alliance. Might need Prussia to be distracted by other things, however.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Sorry Justin, I had the guy mixed up with Clement Vallandigham. The guy accidentaly committed suicide. Mea Culpa.

Any thoughts on the Suez/Nicaragua/Panama Canals?

 

[Nicole]

I'm going to tackle Egypt and the lesser German states soon. Need to do some more research of China, Sub-Saharan Africa, India etc. I think Australia and Canada are proceeding more or less as per OTL. Although, a Canadian Alaska could be on the cards. Whilst Newfoundland and Labrador could try to retain their independence.

Newfoundland/Labrador was only ruined in OTL by economic problems following WW1 and the Great Depression... Even so, if I recall the vote for annexation by Canada was rather close- It could remain it's own Dominion.

As for Alaska, I don't know if Russia would be as happy about selling it to Britain (Dominion status aside, Canada is basically part of Britain in the world's eyes at this point) However, getting it in the Russian Civil War you've mentioned could be a possiblity. (Or having a failed claimant for the throne set up his own Empire of Alyeska...)

In South Africa, judging by the POD, the Cape is still British, and the Boers still have their Republics... But will the Boer Wars still happen?

 

[Othniel]

Possible Republicians for the 1876 elections:

James G. Blaine
Hamilton Fish
Isaac Wayne MacVeagh
John W. Geary
Jeremiah Sullivan Black

(Choosen at Random but their records indictate they might make the nomienational tables and be voted in...)

 

[Justin Pickard]

Sorry Justin, I had the guy mixed up with Clement Vallandigham. The guy accidentaly committed suicide. Mea Culpa.

Even so, I think you have a point. Butterflies would make it unlikely for Breckinridge to die from the same thing as in OTL. Hmm...if the America-Mexico War starts in 1875, might he be tempted to stand for a third term? He was still relatively young, and a democrat holding the presidency until 1880 would totally butterfly subsequent presidents. Any ideas?

Any thoughts on the Suez/Nicaragua/Panama Canals?

Suez more or less as per OTL, until the 1870s. Isma'il Pasha is industrialising at a slower but more sustainable rate in TTL and, as such, isn't forced to sell the Egyptian share in the canal to the British in 1875. I think Egypt will declare independence from Dual Control at some point in the late 1880s, whereupon it will probably be nationalised.

The Nicaragua canal is, as of the 1870s, a pet project for which the FCA (Federation of Central America) is trying to raise funds. French, British and Scandinavian investment looks hopeful. Hmmm...perhaps the Nobel dynasty could get involved.

The Panama canal, on the other hand, is a financial disaster which looks unlikely to ever see the light of day. The American-Mexican War is the final nail in the projects coffin, with the United States of Colombia taking an unexpectedly isolationist stance with regards to foreign policy.

 

[Othniel]

As for the Nicaragau canal the rights belonged to the french at the time if it was to be built, same with the Panama canal, and that would be only after Columbia. The French may not want to give them up....

 

[Justin Pickard]

As for the Nicaragau canal the rights belonged to the french at the time if it was to be built, same with the Panama canal, and that would be only after Columbia. The French may not want to give them up....

What I'm saying here is that the Nicaragua canal probably will happen, whilst the Panama canal won't.