The Three Empires Of Europe

WI the Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Byzantine Empire had all managed to surivive into the late nineteenth century and were real empires, not just in name? Where would their colonies be? What would be the effect on European politics and conflicts? Could Napoleon have been stopped earlier? And what would their relations be like with the British Empire and the United States?
 
Well the first problem with that is Austria-Hungary was the successor state to the successor state of the Holy Roman Empire. Further more, Austria-Hungary did survive into the late 19th century. And to my knowledge they are were legitimately empires. An empire doesn't have to have colonies, it just has to be a vast nation ruling over many peoples and ethnicies with a single ruling Monarch or authority. Acting under this assumption the Chinese, Russians, Mongols, Romans, Indians, ect were not empires.
 
Well said Imperial Vienna.

Your first two are redundant. To make three I recomend either Russia or a Franco-Spainish Empire.
 
Austria-Hungary and the Holy Roman Empire both "surviving" is possible, I suppose, if you define A-H as "a Hapsburg Empire centered in Vienna", anyway, as the Austria-Hungary we all know and love originated in 1867... but I suppose it's possible to see a timeline where the HRE survives, and gets somehow co-opted by German nationalists who end up subscribing to the Kleindeutschland theory- though the "HRE" in this scenario would be a HRE in name only and would look more like the Second Reich than the First.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
A surviving Austro-Hungarian Empire and a surviving Holy Roma Empire would mean these two Empires would have overlapping territories and the same emperor.
 

Susano

Banned
A surviving Austro-Hungarian Empire and a surviving Holy Roma Empire would mean these two Empires would have overlapping territories and the same emperor.

The HRE was an elective monarchy. Theoretically somebdoy else than a Habsburg could be elected. And as Imajin said, its not implausible for the Austrian lands to leave the HRE (as before already, 1648 in the Westphalian Peace, the Italian states had done)...
 
Austria-Hungary and the Holy Roman Empire both "surviving" is possible, I suppose, if you define A-H as "a Hapsburg Empire centered in Vienna", anyway, as the Austria-Hungary we all know and love originated in 1867... but I suppose it's possible to see a timeline where the HRE survives, and gets somehow co-opted by German nationalists who end up subscribing to the Kleindeutschland theory- though the "HRE" in this scenario would be a HRE in name only and would look more like the Second Reich than the First.

I may be wrong, or some other reason for Austria becoming seperate may arise, but I was under the impression that the Kleindeutsch and Grossdeutsch ideas were a pretty direct consequence of Vienna having a large non-German empire in Eastern Europe: no conservative Austrian government would surrender this empire, so die-hard nationalists, generally liberal, wanted to dismantle AH and include Austria in Germany, whereas Bismarckian realpolitik demanded leaving Germany incomplete so that there could be a Germany in the first place.

Otherwise, another voice behind Imperial Vienna. Also, opening poster: butterflies, butterflies, butterflies. If the Byzantines survive and the HRE is a meaningful political unit, this implies a PoD long, long ago. Other parts of the world will be affected by these changes in germany and the Balkans down the centuries, so you wont necessarily see a united Britain, let alone a British Empire.
 
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HRE = German Empire (Bismarck)
Austria / Austria-Hungary
Byzantium = Ottoman Empire

Look, we got it !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
HRE = German Empire (Bismarck)
Austria / Austria-Hungary
Byzantium = Ottoman Empire

Look, we got it !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The last two work, but I think if anyone could claim to stem from the old HRE it was Imperial Austria(-Hungary), and before its abolition, the Deutscher Bund. The Kaiserreich came from Prussia which cam from the Teutonic Order, not the Empire itself.
 

Susano

Banned
The last two work, but I think if anyone could claim to stem from the old HRE it was Imperial Austria(-Hungary), and before its abolition, the Deutscher Bund. The Kaiserreich came from Prussia which cam from the Teutonic Order, not the Empire itself.

Actually, the Teutonic Order still existed and still exists... it came from Brandenburg, really. Which was part, even electroate of the HRE. Of course the Secodn Empire cant really claim continuity from the HRE, but neither can the Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary. Still, Germany=HRE works still better than Ottoman Empire=Byzantine Empire!
 
Actually, the Teutonic Order still existed and still exists... it came from Brandenburg, really. Which was part, even electroate of the HRE. Of course the Secodn Empire cant really claim continuity from the HRE, but neither can the Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary. Still, Germany=HRE works still better than Ottoman Empire=Byzantine Empire!
Eh? Both were large, religious empires based in Constantinople, whose leaders claimed the title of Roman Emperor...

Really the Byzantine Empire throws a huge wrench into things, because by having the Byzantines survive you have to basically kill the Ottomans, and without the Ottomans any sort of "Austria-Hungary" is going to look quite different.
 

Susano

Banned
Eh? Both were large, religious empires based in Constantinople, whose leaders claimed the title of Roman Emperor...
It was a conquest and afterwards a title absorption. Eh, no continuity. Les sso than between HRE and German Empire, in any case.
 
Actually, the Teutonic Order still existed and still exists... it came from Brandenburg, really. Which was part, even electroate of the HRE. Of course the Secodn Empire cant really claim continuity from the HRE, but neither can the Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary. Still, Germany=HRE works still better than Ottoman Empire=Byzantine Empire!

Hmm, now that I think about it, Reich 2 (This Time It's Kleindeutsch!) could probably claim to be the HRE's succesor if you say that the HRE was not suceeded by the Austrian Empire (which would instead suceed member state Austria) but by the Rhine Confederation and hence the German and North German Confederations and the Empire. But that would require the legitimacy of something created by Napoleon! The horror! The horror!

It was a conquest and afterwards a title absorption. Eh, no continuity. Les sso than between HRE and German Empire, in any case.

We-heh-hell, Prussia "conquered" the Bund (by using military force to wrest the presidency from Austria, if you consider the NGC a direct successor) and then decided that since they'd beaten the French, they had every right to call themselves emperors...

And if there's one thing worse than conquest and title-grabbing, its conquest and title-fabrication!;)
 
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WI the Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Byzantine Empire had all managed to surivive into the late nineteenth century and were real empires, not just in name? Where would their colonies be? What would be the effect on European politics and conflicts? Could Napoleon have been stopped earlier? And what would their relations be like with the British Empire and the United States?
The Byzantine Empire did survive, until 1922. ;)
 
WI the Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Byzantine Empire had all managed to surivive into the late nineteenth century and were real empires, not just in name? Where would their colonies be? What would be the effect on European politics and conflicts? Could Napoleon have been stopped earlier? And what would their relations be like with the British Empire and the United States?
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=9
 
Another problem, assuming you want a more recent POD, assuming the Prussians don't get the HRE united and both the HRE and A-H are Habsburg control states, if I remember correctly, the Habsburgs have the most legitimate claim on the Byzantine Throne as well. Now thats assuming that the Byzantine Empire is restored, if you want it to never fall, you'll need to kill the 4th Crusade or make it actually head for its original goal. The other problem is, and maybe it's just me, but I tend to think, if the Byzantines survive and prosper, Hungary would likely end up at least in some form controlled by Constantinople.
 
In my mind, the closest that Austro-Hungaria could have gotten to a colonial empire is if it avoided war with Revolutionary and Imperial France to begin with, then it could concievably have taken control of Greece first, before building up it's navy, and compete for Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. Perhaps if the whole nationalistic thing in Europe was more marginal than it was, such Austrian naval dominance may have been a possibility.
 
In my mind, the closest that Austro-Hungaria could have gotten to a colonial empire is if it avoided war with Revolutionary and Imperial France

It wasn't exactly as if they could avoid war, and even if they did, Austria's borders were expanded after the Napoleonic Wars. For the record, it didn't become A-H until 1867.

to begin with, then it could concievably have taken control of Greece first,

Yes, because it was so easy to take large chunks of the Ottoman Empire. Coincidentally, they had been trying that for centuries.

before building up it's navy, and compete for Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine.

All of those places were ruled by the Ottomans at this time, and the British had heavy interests in most of them.

Perhaps if the whole nationalistic thing in Europe was more marginal than it was, such Austrian naval dominance may have been a possibility.

Nationalistic thing? There is no such thing as a "Hapsburg nationality", the whole country is united only by the throne, other than that it is a diverse mess of ethnicities and nationalities.
 
It wasn't exactly as if they could avoid war, and even if they did, Austria's borders were expanded after the Napoleonic Wars.

Perhaps if the circumstances leading up to the French Revolution were tackled before it happened, then.

For the record, it didn't become A-H until 1867.

For the record, I only refered to it as Austro-Hungary. I never thought that it was called Austro-Hungary in the early 1800's, but whose to say that Hungary wouldn't have achieved autonomy in TTL. I really didn't think we'd be splitting hairs on this.


Yes, because it was so easy to take large chunks of the Ottoman Empire. Coincidentally, they had been trying that for centuries.

Turkey was in decline, and it was losing ground to the Russians north of the Black Sea in the 1850's. The Crimean War drew the interests of France and Britain. A stronger Austrian Empire may have done better than Bosnia and Herzegovina.

All of those places were ruled by the Ottomans at this time, and the British had heavy interests in most of them.

And may have had a contender in Austria under different circumstances.

Nationalistic thing? There is no such thing as a "Hapsburg nationality", the whole country is united only by the throne, other than that it is a diverse mess of ethnicities and nationalities.

Who the hell said anything about "Hasburg nationality"?

"Dur-doi. The nationalism of Hapsburggg....ians may prove a problem for Austrian imperial expansionism. Duhhh."

I was talking about the nationalism in the various regions of the Austrian Empire, like the Bosnia, Herzegovina, Croatia ect. The pro-slavic dissidents were a problem to the stability of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
 
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