The Templars in Ceuta?

[The Professor]

In my TL the Templars are going to survive longer (what with no Phillip of France) but they need to fight pagans to remain relevant or get disbanded by the Pope.

So my thinking is they go after Ceuta in the early 1300s after being given the go ahead by the Pope or something.

Can they hold it and expand?
Are other Christian Kingdoms of the Med and Iberia okay with this?
What could go wrong?

 

[Rakhasa]

In my TL the Templars are going to survive longer (what with no Phillip of France) but they need to fight pagans to remain relevant or get disbanded by the Pope.

So my thinking is they go after Ceuta in the early 1300s after being given the go ahead by the Pope or something.

Can they hold it and expand?
Are other Christian Kingdoms of the Med and Iberia okay with this?
What could go wrong?

In the early 1300 Granada is still in Europe -Ceuta in fact belonged (sometimes) to Granada (conquered by the Kingdom of Fez 1309, recovered on 1310, re-captured in 1314, recovered in 1327, re-captured in 1384, recovered in 1387 before finally being taken by Portugal in 1415 and joining Spain in 1580)

That sucession of conquests and re-conquests shows what could go wrong, and that's before the Ottomans (wich are butteflied anyway) or their TL equivalent stick their ovelong evool infidel noses on the pot.

~realizes than he probably should read Prof's timeline to check in Granada is still muslim before replying~ ooops... is Granada muslim in 1300? ~wanders to the TL~

 

[Tocomocho]

Well, this is the 1300s. Between 1300 and ca. 1330 Ceuta was a battleground between Fez and Granada, changing hands each few years (yep, sounds surrealist but Granada did have her obscure attempts at overseas expansion - they even had a last stroke of fighting over the city in the 1380s). (EDIT: Well, somebody beat me in this)

Meanwhile Granada itself is a vassal of Castile, so in theory if somebody attacks her and she does ask for help, the Castilians *should* come to the rescue. I say *should* because, after all, they didn't move a finger any time Fez did attack the city, sometimes with Aragonese support. And that's despite Aragon had recognized Ceuta as part of the Castilian sphere of influence in a treaty signed, precisely, in 1300.

A Templar takeover is different, though. In the case of Fez Castile would just hope Granada would either retake the city or she could just assume she would take Ceuta and Fez itself some day anyway and go to bed like if it wasn't a big deal.

In my opinion the Castilian reaction is dubious at best and it depends considerably of the circunstances and who's in the throne at that moment. I think there wouldn't be a reaction in most of the cases, and more certainly not after the Trastamaras get the throne in the 1360s - they did lose interest in the southern seas in OTL after all, which gave a free hand to the Portuguese in the area.

However, if it happens in the 1350s, oh well... Peter the Cruel is in the throne. And he doesn't give a crap about fighting anything or anybody. And he is an enthusiast of Granada, the Mediterranean, and naval matters, by the way...

 

[The Professor]

In the early 1300 Granada is still in Europe -Ceuta in fact belonged (sometimes) to Granada (conquered by the Kingdom of Fez 1309, recovered on 1310, re-captured in 1314, recovered in 1327, re-captured in 1384, recovered in 1387 before finally being taken by Portugal in 1415 and joining Spain in 1580)

That sucession of conquests and re-conquests shows what could go wrong, and that's before the Ottomans (wich are butteflied anyway) or their TL equivalent stick their ovelong evool infidel noses on the pot.

~realizes than he probably should read Prof's timeline to check in Granada is still muslim before replying~ ooops... is Granada muslim in 1300? ~wanders to the TL~

Yes there's still Granada .
The fact that neither Granada nor the Marinids managed to keep Ceuta once one of the Iberian countries took it was one of the reasons I was thinking that the Templars could conquer it.

 

[The Professor]

Well, this is the 1300s. Between 1300 and ca. 1330 Ceuta was a battleground between Fez and Granada, changing hands each few years (yep, sounds surrealist but Granada did have her obscure attempts at overseas expansion - they even had a last stroke of fighting over the city in the 1380s). (EDIT: Well, somebody beat me in this)

Meanwhile Granada itself is a vassal of Castile, so in theory if somebody attacks her and she does ask for help, the Castilians *should* come to the rescue. I say *should* because, after all, they didn't move a finger any time Fez did attack the city, sometimes with Aragonese support. And that's despite Aragon had recognized Ceuta as part of the Castilian sphere of influence in a treaty signed, precisely, in 1300.

A Templar takeover is different, though. In the case of Fez Castile would just hope Granada would either retake the city or she could just assume she would take Ceuta and Fez itself some day anyway and go to bed like if it wasn't a big deal.

In my opinion the Castilian reaction is dubious at best and it depends considerably of the circunstances and who's in the throne at that moment. I think there wouldn't be a reaction in most of the cases, and more certainly not after the Trastamaras get the throne in the 1360s - they did lose interest in the southern seas in OTL after all, which gave a free hand to the Portuguese in the area.

However, if it happens in the 1350s, oh well... Peter the Cruel is in the throne. And he doesn't give a crap about fighting anything or anybody. And he is an enthusiast of Granada, the Mediterranean, and naval matters, by the way...

Ah good.
Especially good as the ripples in marriages are filtering down so that Alfonso of Aragon has a son by Katharine Hohenstaufen (daughter of Maria Arpad and the ATL Henry VII Hohentaufen) before he dies. There's a regency headed by Frederick Duke of Narbonne (OTL Frederick 'III' of Sicily) tho contested by James II of Sicily Insularia (OTL James of Aragon & Sicily). I'm not sure how the Castilian issues with Sancho are different as I now have different children of his brother Ferdinand de la Cerda.

I was thinking of the Templars also getting Mellila and concentrating on the Marinids wiht alliances with Aragon and/or Sicily and/or Castile-Leon. If anything it'll get them out of Europe for a while . Plus if they get completely whooped then the Pope is justified disbanding them

 

[Tocomocho]

Well if there are butterflies then the can of possibilities gets a lot bigger. IOTL the destruction of the Templars happened at a time when France, Castile and Aragon had relatively good relations I think (should check this anyway) so they followed suit and seized the Templar properties in their own soil. But say the destruction is not avoided, but delayed enough to have Castile or Aragon or both at odds with France (this is the Middle Ages so it shouldn't be too difficult) then the Templars could go to any of the Iberian kingdoms and seek refuge, fighting for the king that helps them.